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Thread: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

  1. #4481
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Possible upgrade to Spine.

    Slops: No replayability.

    Props: Can be uncounterable thorough caverns; Puts more pressure on S&T; Not affected by thorns and Teeg;


  2. #4482
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Scg Con Report Incoming.

    I should finally have time to get in front of a keyboard after the tournament on Tuesday. It's been a crazy week, followed by my son's birthday and Father's Day. What I will say for current review is that I had an MVP on Friday that I also included for the duel for duals. I do not think running 2 is worth it, but one Razormane Masticore feels like a must in the current meta. I will put my decklist and report out there asap, but I will say that mistakes may have been made, but also my general experimentation was largely successful and many of my losses in matches came down to opponents topdecking like bosses.
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  3. #4483

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverflame View Post
    Possible upgrade to Spine.

    Slops: No replayability.

    Props: Can be uncounterable thorough caverns; Puts more pressure on S&T; Not affected by thorns and Teeg;

    I think it costs too much mana. I think to be playable as a playset it would have to cost 5

    I don't think this will replace Spine Of Ish Sah

    I was thinking it might be playable with Traxos and Goblin Welder in a newly updated decklist but for it to work in that kind of shell it would have to cost a lot less mana as cloudpost mana wouldn't be used

  4. #4484
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by Troll_ov_Grimness View Post
    I think it costs too much mana. I think to be playable as a playset it would have to cost 5

    I don't think this will replace Spine Of Ish Sah

    I was thinking it might be playable with Traxos and Goblin Welder in a newly updated decklist but for it to work in that kind of shell it would have to cost a lot less mana as cloudpost mana wouldn't be used
    I was more thinking of it as a replacement of Spine, despite the fact that usually I use Spine more from a Kuldotha activation (on bridge or a Jace almost ultimating for exemple).
    However I guess it won't see a lot of plays : as you said it is a bit expensive and can die to lots of removal. Spine can serve as a artifact to sac for kuldotha more easily.

    I don't know if a welder based deck can be competitive nowadays. The meta is filled with GY hate (classical sideboard + DRS) and lots of spot removals. The main advantage of MUD nowadays is that it can be explosive thanks to grim monolith and metalworker. If none of those stick on the BF you still have access to plenty of mana thanks to your lands. You start to struggle when both sides of your plan is attacked.
    For a welder pack, you have to let your welder survive and have cards in your GY, that's a pretty hard hard thing to do :p


    Malfie, we are all still waiting your report :)

  5. #4485

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorruk View Post
    I don't know if a welder based deck can be competitive nowadays. The meta is filled with GY hate (classical sideboard + DRS) and lots of spot removals. The main advantage of MUD nowadays is that it can be explosive thanks to grim monolith and metalworker. If none of those stick on the BF you still have access to plenty of mana thanks to your lands. You start to struggle when both sides of your plan is attacked.
    For a welder pack, you have to let your welder survive and have cards in your GY, that's a pretty hard hard thing to do :p
    Is this really the fear?

    I mean, DRS shows up in ~40% of decks. 1cc, 2 toughness, needs cards in the graveyard. The second most popular creature is Snapcaster Mage which also requires cards in the graveyard...

    I feel like Welder is less competitive because of the desire to play Chalice.

  6. #4486

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred_Bear View Post
    Is this really the fear?

    I mean, DRS shows up in ~40% of decks. 1cc, 2 toughness, needs cards in the graveyard. The second most popular creature is Snapcaster Mage which also requires cards in the graveyard...

    I feel like Welder is less competitive because of the desire to play Chalice.
    Deathrite is the main reason that welder isn't viable anymore.

    And when myself and some other long time mud players, ran welder, we ran 4 chalice, 4 welder, and 4 cavern of souls, side by side. Cavern made welder less of a liability.

  7. #4487

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackHawkX9 View Post
    Deathrite is the main reason that welder isn't viable anymore.

    And when myself and some other long time mud players, ran welder, we ran 4 chalice, 4 welder, and 4 cavern of souls, side by side. Cavern made welder less of a liability.
    Could you explain this a bit more?

    DRS can't target anything weldable, right?

    I guess my point was, if DRS is playable, why wouldn't Welder be playable? Most decks only have 2-4 sideboard slots dedicated to graveyard removal. The plan seems to be kill the Elf rather than try to take away his power. Welder, of course, still dies to bolt, but an active Welder, with tools, seems like it would at least have potential to be more powerful than DRS.

  8. #4488
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred_Bear View Post
    Could you explain this a bit more?

    DRS can't target anything weldable, right?

    I guess my point was, if DRS is playable, why wouldn't Welder be playable? Most decks only have 2-4 sideboard slots dedicated to graveyard removal. The plan seems to be kill the Elf rather than try to take away his power. Welder, of course, still dies to bolt, but an active Welder, with tools, seems like it would at least have potential to be more powerful than DRS.
    DRS is a maindeck card that hates opponent's graveyard. That goes for some combo decks, control and most midrangey decks. Can be cast with 2 different colors, It is a 1/2 so it blocks an early Goblin Lackey. It gives you life against burn. It damages opponents you can't attack. It fixes your mana. It prevents you from being locked out by wasteland and enables you to lock your opponent while developing your board. It makes most of your cards worth more, as they are fuel for DRS, even your fetchlands. It interacts with most cards in yours or your opponent's graveyard. There are just so many angles it can be useful, including responding a welder activation by removing the creature in the GY that you're trying to weld. It's overall a much better card than welder and is slotted in most decks, usually guarded by countermagic as it is an attrition card. That's why it is called the "one mana planeswalker".
    Welder needs you to get one artifact in play and one in the graveyard, not have sickness, not be countered to get value. Most decks doesn't use maindeck artifacts for you to disrupt them. Most decks will have DRS to disrupt you.

  9. #4489

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverflame View Post
    DRS is a maindeck card that hates opponent's graveyard. That goes for some combo decks, control and most midrangey decks. Can be cast with 2 different colors, It is a 1/2 so it blocks an early Goblin Lackey. It gives you life against burn. It damages opponents you can't attack. It fixes your mana. It prevents you from being locked out by wasteland and enables you to lock your opponent while developing your board. It makes most of your cards worth more, as they are fuel for DRS, even your fetchlands. It interacts with most cards in yours or your opponent's graveyard. There are just so many angles it can be useful, including responding a welder activation by removing the creature in the GY that you're trying to weld. It's overall a much better card than welder and is slotted in most decks, usually guarded by countermagic as it is an attrition card. That's why it is called the "one mana planeswalker".
    Welder needs you to get one artifact in play and one in the graveyard, not have sickness, not be countered to get value. Most decks doesn't use maindeck artifacts for you to disrupt them. Most decks will have DRS to disrupt you.
    Thanks.

    I understand what makes DRS tick and targeting creatures gives this basis within the MUD shell. If the artifacts are more Stax-oriented (non-creatures), Welder could be more playable I think.

  10. #4490

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred_Bear View Post
    Thanks.

    I understand what makes DRS tick and targeting creatures gives this basis within the MUD shell. If the artifacts are more Stax-oriented (non-creatures), Welder could be more playable I think.
    This is true. But unfortunately the best things we can welder to get maximum abuse of welder are creatures. (wurmcoil engine, sundering titan, myr battlesphere, etc). With the printing of combustible gearhulk, I kinda revisited welder, but it still just gets ruined by the ease of eating creatures that deathrite has. . The best non-creature things that we can welder are stax, spine, and contagion engine, which are already 1 of's or fringe playable as is.

  11. #4491

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackHawkX9 View Post
    This is true. But unfortunately the best things we can welder to get maximum abuse of welder are creatures. (wurmcoil engine, sundering titan, myr battlesphere, etc). With the printing of combustible gearhulk, I kinda revisited welder, but it still just gets ruined by the ease of eating creatures that deathrite has. . The best non-creature things that we can welder are stax, spine, and contagion engine, which are already 1 of's or fringe playable as is.
    Again, I think it depends on how you construct it. For the MUD builds, I agree entirely. Creatures are the best value. I'm thinking of trying something in a different direction...

  12. #4492
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred_Bear View Post
    Again, I think it depends on how you construct it. For the MUD builds, I agree entirely. Creatures are the best value. I'm thinking of trying something in a different direction...
    Tangle Wire is a card

  13. #4493
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    I don't think it is worth playing welder again until they print a non-creature artifact that is ineherently powerful by itself. For now, you need too much setup for not enough value.

  14. #4494

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverflame View Post
    I don't think it is worth playing welder again until they print a non-creature artifact that is ineherently powerful by itself. For now, you need too much setup for not enough value.
    I agree that you need a non-creature artifact that's worth it. I'm wondering if the current meta doesn't make a couple of existing artifacts worth revisiting... maybe.

  15. #4495
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    So. I had totally tied up my review of scg con, and was working on editing it. Unfortunately my computer decided to stop working forever, and I don't have a backup and paper or electronically because I was planning on posting at the same day. We tried to put it on life support but it didn't work. So in the next couple of days I'll try to drop down some of my general thoughts, as I threw out my tournament notes having typed up the entirety of the review already. FML.
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  16. #4496
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverflame View Post
    I don't think it is worth playing welder again until they print a non-creature artifact that is ineherently powerful by itself. For now, you need too much setup for not enough value.
    I disagree, that welder is completely inherently not good enough because of death right Ramen. It's partly that it can't have haste, partly that there are several graveyard based Decks that are great, which causes the hate to be pretty good, I'm partly the strategy we've been currently working with his pretty good already. Unfortunately reality is that what we lack that would make our deck better, usually revolves around card selection and card draw, which are more blue things, not graveyard recursion, which tends not to matter. Obviously if things are counted early, and end up in the graveyard, getting them back is sometimes cool, but I have rarely found that the one or two things that get countered early are the Necessities that I needed. Welders there is great because no matter what you stick you will get the value you want out of it either from the cast or from the graveyard. And you can also activate the Wilder in response to a death right activation, if it is not dealt with. In fact alongside metalworker, I find that is pretty gross. I kind of wish there was a good streamline version of the deck that ran both, but I have not yet been able to brew one and I haven't seen any online.
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  17. #4497
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Jeez, voice software. Death ramen is funny tho.
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  18. #4498
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Welcome back mister Goblin Welder

  19. #4499
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Ok, death right Ramen (I like that ) is banned.
    I believe welder is better on a combo shell than a midrange one. So probably battlesphere, sundering, double staff , lots of bridges, etc Older lists are available, so we just need to tune them for the new meta.
    My thoughts on the meta are Grixis probably is dead, long live RUG. Reanimator will be rampant at early shifting. Gobbos everywhere. Nobles and goyf go back to their prime.
    Czech pile dead, finally.

  20. #4500
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    So, my gut feeling is that MUD will be a solid choice while the meta's in flux over the next month or two, because:
    1) Post ban, it's always good to do something proactive and powerful
    2) There's gonna be a lot of Reanimator, Sneak & Show, RUG, and Miracles, all of which we can punish with shit like Chalice, Lodestone, and Thorn

    I'm a bit nervous about DnT rearing its head, though Ballista and Spyglass are useful printings since DnT was super popular a year or two ago. Here's the 75 I'll be trying next week:

    4 Metalworker
    4 Lodestone
    3 Forgemaster
    3 Wurmcoil
    1 Emperion
    1 Sundering Titan
    2 Ballista
    2 Ugin

    4 Monolith
    4 Chalice
    4 Thorn
    2 Greaves
    1 Spyglass
    1 Staff of Domination

    3 Wasteland
    4 Tomb
    3 City
    11 Post
    2 Cavern
    1 Inventors' Fair

    1 Ballista
    2 Spine
    1 Contagion Engine
    2 Portal (maybe this becomes Karn 3.0)
    2 Crucible
    2 Spyglass
    2 Tsabo's Web
    3 Tormod's Crypt

    (This isn't a huge departure from my old lists. Main changes are 4 Thorn - I'd been on just 2 Trinisphere for a while - and reintroducing Spine to the board.)

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