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Thread: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

  1. #4321

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by RobNC View Post
    Sundering Titan has always been a game winner for me, although I've never tutored for it. My Forgemaster targets are almost always Blightsteel to win the game or Emperion to not lose the game (and hopefully win shortly after).
    I have forgemaster tutored for a sorcerous spyglass before in weird dire situations, to save my ass. It's not always
    So cut and dry.

  2. #4322

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    So, I was going over matchup notes and I was thinking that some of my matches could use a little more practice. Does anyone have any preferred strategies or special tech that helps you out in the grixis delver, dnt, and RG lands matches?

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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackHawkX9 View Post
    I have forgemaster tutored for a sorcerous spyglass before in weird dire situations, to save my ass. It's not always
    So cut and dry.
    Have to agree with that. Forgemaster has saved me so many times with platinum emperion, and also frequently just fetches a draw engine or spine of ish sah.
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackHawkX9 View Post
    So, I was going over matchup notes and I was thinking that some of my matches could use a little more practice. Does anyone have any preferred strategies or special tech that helps you out in the grixis delver, dnt, and RG lands matches?
    Well, you id'ed some of the weaker matches for g1, lol. Sb are strong in my case vs each, bc game 1 my strategy can be annoyingly disrupted. I have 2 spyglass, which are good in dt and lands, obviously. In lands case i also run 2x bridges, 2 fae, a tormod's crypt and also have a mb thespian's stage, which can be hilarious and won me my win and in at Pitt. My sb karn is also quite good. Some is play and draw dependant.

    Vs dt, as i said, spyglass is also good and names more things. Bridge isn't hot, bc a lot of their creatures are 2x and smaller. Also, be careful if you run thorns. They don't get hit as hard as a lot of other decks. Further, their suite includes sanctum prelate which can hose fetching artifacts with specific casting costs. Some of the best tech include my mb and sb ballistae, all is dust becones a redundant and cheaper ugin as well. Of course it cant be fetched. Revoker is also mb for them, which is annoying. Diversity of fetching with both fair and forgemaster is super key. If you run caverns and arent ported unconsious, chalice on 3 can be pretty solid if youve spyglassed their vial. I mean, they run cavern too, which can also be a thing. I feel like it can be an odd match.

    Grixis delver can be super tough on the draw depending on their build. Remember that daze is a card that they run. I default on the blind try to keep hands that are good vs delver and or storm and am usually rewarded. Thorn is good, in my mb, even though they can still play drs into tnn. That said, all their one drops cost 2 and all their free spells have mana costs, making it one of several must counters we have. Trinisphere is great, too, as is chalice. Some people sb warping wail for this match, which is fair. It exiles the majority of their deck, minus flipped delver. I tend to find that the incidental lifegain and draw of staff can be backbreaking. As can just tapping down their non tnn spells. Cavern is ok, but they run 4x wastelands. Be cautious about mb fetching with forgemaster and inventors fair as sac is oart of the costs, and some versions run stifle instead of cabal therapy. Building a head of steam and drawing a massive amount of cards will likely win the game. Resolved wurmcoil and or platinum emperion is super bad for them. Both eat minimum 2 removal spells. Either dismember and bolt or bolt bolt, for wurmcoil. Many times when i have emperion on board they take 1-2 draw steps and scoop. Bridge can be good sb, as we can then play into their counters and win a topdeck war. Resolving ugin becomes an instant win. Hes a chunky monkey. First use exiles their board which is all 3 or less, except angler . You have to assume sb ancient grudge at one to two of, and sometimes shattering spree or by force, god help us. Some also run winter orb, which can be super annoying even with bridge out. Spyglass stops them from drsing us behind the bridge, but can be a general feel bad, as that is all it hits. All is dust is super gross as it wipes out even angler. I sometimes cut down unexpected cards just to run 2 ugin and the 2 sb all is dust. I also run a mb crucible, which helps a lot. Lodestone can be a trap. It dies to most of thier removal, and metalworker dies to all of it. Greaves can win games, even without blightseel, as putting them on emperion costs way too many resources for them to logically catch up. Remember to manage your life total and that tnn can soak the damage from one wurm and doesnt die to your deathtouch. They also run minimum 5 burn spells, 4 bolt and a forked bolt, and simetimes run a 1x sb snapcaster i also often think about sbing in orbs of watding, which is really meant for storm, on the play vs grix to turn off their therapies, burn and pyro tokens. I find on the draw it can sometimes be slow.
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Ps, if you're afraid of grixis delver, you should also be aware that ur prowess delver is a super annoying match, if you dont already know. They still get their triggers through a chalice, 2 is the more correct number to slam as it turns off their price of progress, and the majority of their creatures. Sadly it also hits thorn which is super good bc it makes their free spells cost mana, and there are a lot of them. Many of their spells also dont get hit by chalice at all. Fireblast, fow, and either one or 2 drops are going to get through, as is their devil. And their sbs are usually stacked with a lot of hate for artifacts, sometimes including hurkyls. Just remember to chalice on 2 unless you have sphere or thorn, then sphere thorn into chalice on two can be solid. Also remember that chalice on 2 turns off chalice on 1, so be careful. Someone told me that sphere plus chalice on 2 lets chalice on 1 through bc it has to cost 5 on the stack. Also chalice on 2 turns off daze. Also be careful thinking that a resolved empyrion or worm is an instant win, as they run often 1 to 2 main board Vapor snag. Also if youre on a wastleland plan, they run hella basics, and no wastelands of their own, bc of price.
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  6. #4326

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by malfie13 View Post
    .
    Thanks for the extra info malfie. Do you have. Decklist to go with your experiences? . . Also, I really want to put in walking ballista's, but I can't seem to make room for them. Plus, the fact that they can't be grabbed with forgemaster really puts a ding in their appeal.

    I want to get some practice and tech vs these 3 decks, because they seem to be the most played at the SCG team events, and I'm going to be the legacy player for my team for SCG Cincinnati.

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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackHawkX9 View Post
    So, I was going over matchup notes and I was thinking that some of my matches could use a little more practice. Does anyone have any preferred strategies or special tech that helps you out in the grixis delver, dnt, and RG lands matches?
    Grixis Delver:
    - I think this is pretty close to 50/50. Our plan is very effective against them, but they're waaaayyyy more consistent than us. In practice, that means that 1) it's easy for us to draw bad hands, 2) they're likely to draw shit that disrupts our plan, and 3) they're likely to draw things that are proactively good at beating us.
    - Mana denial effects are probably your biggest priority, so look for hands that can make quick Chalices, Trinispheres, Lodetones, and Wastelands.
    - I'd be wary of keeping hands with 2 lands or less, unless you've got something like a Metalworker in that hand. It's easy for Delver to Daze your first play and then Wasteland you, so land-lite hands are risky.
    - It's virtually impossible for any Delver deck to beat a Wurmcoil.

    DnT
    - Arguably one of our worst matchups, but Ballista was a great printing. I know you mentioned being wary of Ballista because it isn't a Forgemaster target, but I'd still run it.
    - If you play them, Spyglass and Revoker effects are excellent. Shutting of Vial is the biggest one IMO, but their deck is just made of activated abilities.
    - Some people say otherwise, but postboard I'd cut your Chalices and Trinispheres. If they have a Vial going, taxing effects are relatively useless. They're also pretty short on 1 CMC spells - you're only gonna hit StP or, if you're on the play and lucky, Vial. And even if Chalice does temporarily stop those, Flickerwisp will eventually reset your Chalices to 0. Instead, I'd make sure you have a good mainboard & sideboard split of value/attrition cards. Good options that come to mind are Ratchet Bomb, Contagion Engine, Coercive Portal, Spyglass, Ballista, Ensnaring Bridge, Tsabo's Web, Crucible (to some extent), and Ugin.
    - Remember that if they activate a Vial and you think they have a Revoker in hand, use whatever relevant activated abilities you have in response! You don't get to respond to Revoker's trigger once it's put into play.

    Lands
    - Another rough one, though the degree of unfavorability depends on both your builds. I've found that Lands decks playing Port aren't as bad for us as the decks playing Ghost Quarter.
    - If you're able to make a turn 1 Chalice for 1, I'd do it: it hits Crop Rotation, Gamble, and Exploration. Otherwise, getting it on 2 is huge. Shutting off Loam is critical, and getting rid of Punishing Fire helps keep Metalworkers alive, which is good against mana-denial.dec.
    - On a related note, I think Lightning Greaves is awesome here. Being able to protect Metalworkers is great, as is the ability to "get them" with Forgemaster. Likewise, if you're able to ramp/tutor out a Platinum creature and put Greaves on it, that's going to buy you a ton of time.
    - Always play with Krosan Grip at the back of your mind.
    - The aspect of Lands we struggle with the most is a quick Marit Lage (assuming you aren't playing fringe cards like Ensnaring Bridge, Mirage Mirror, or Thespian's Stage). As long as they don't power the combo out, the grind isn't automatically bad for you. Play to your outs: if you're in a draw-go Loam-Wasteland board, try to sculpt a hand that will let you escape it (e.g. 2 Sol Lands, a Grim Monolith, a Metalworker, and a Greaves). Coercive Portal effects help with this.

    #

    Anyway, went 3-1 on this last night:

    4 Metalworker
    4 Ballista
    4 Lodestone
    3 Forgemaster
    3 Wurmcoil
    1 Emperion
    1 Titan
    2 Ugin

    4 Monolith
    4 Chalice
    3 Trinisphere
    2 Greaves
    1 Staff of Domination

    3 Wasteland
    4 Tomb
    3 City
    11 Post
    2 Cavern
    1 Inventors' Fair

    1 Spine
    1 Contagion Engine
    2 Coercive Portal
    2 Crucible
    3 Spyglass
    3 Thorn
    3 Tormod's Crypt

    I beat BUG Control, 4C Stiflenaught, and RB Reanimator. Lost to Lands. Some thoughts:
    - I've been on a grindier version of MUD (i.e. maindeck Portals, no Greaves) for a while, but going back to combo-oriented felt great.
    - 4 Ballista is too much. I wanted to do the full playset just so I could get a better feel for the card. 1 will become a Hellkite.
    - I've been underwhelmed by Crucible for a while. I can't remember the last time I wanted it as a proactive prison piece. In the matches you want it defensively, it's either too situational (vs DnT, they might not have Wasteland effects) or it can't keep up (against Loam locks). I'm gonna try making it into 2 Tsabo's Web and see how I like it.

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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackHawkX9 View Post
    Thanks for the extra info malfie. Do you have. Decklist to go with your experiences? . . Also, I really want to put in walking ballista's, but I can't seem to make room for them. Plus, the fact that they can't be grabbed with forgemaster really puts a ding in their appeal.
    I should also have mentioned chalice on 2 vs lands. Yes, its backbreaking.

    I cant post my current list until monday, bc reasons. Lol. That said, mud can oops i win two ways. Vs some decks forgemaster is more key, whereas vs others metalworker and staff is my go to. Also, i disagree with cutting chalices on the play vs dt, and on the draw its questionable. On the other hand, i do agree that thorn and 3ball can be bad.
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    To stuart. I run 2x ballista and it usually feels fine. Unless vs infect, elves or dt its held until im going for the kill.
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  10. #4330
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackHawkX9 View Post
    Thanks for the extra info malfie. Do you have. Decklist to go with your experiences? . . Also, I really want to put in walking ballista's, but I can't seem to make room for them. Plus, the fact that they can't be grabbed with forgemaster really puts a ding in their appeal. I also dunno how i feel about staff of nin. Feels good to ping strixes and pyros, tho

    I want to get some practice and tech vs these 3 decks, because they seem to be the most played at the SCG team events, and I'm going to be the legacy player for my team for SCG Cincinnati.
    I wound up getting super sick on friday and couldnt make gp philly, but my list would have likely looked something like this:

    Deck: Legacy MUD 12-16-17.dec

    Counts : 61 main / 15 sideboard

    Creatures:16
    2 Walking Ballista
    4 Metalworker
    4 Lodestone Golem
    2 Kuldotha Forgemaster
    2 Wurmcoil Engine
    1 Platinum Emperion
    1 Blightsteel Colossus

    Spells:21
    3 Chalice of the Void
    3 Grim Monolith
    1 Lightning Greaves
    3 Thorn of Amethyst
    1 Crucible of Worlds
    2 Staff of Domination
    2 Trinisphere
    1 Bottled Cloister
    1 Ghirapur Orrery
    1 Staff of Nin
    1 Spine of Ish Sah
    2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

    Lands:24
    4 Ancient Tomb
    1 Buried Ruin
    2 Cavern of Souls
    3 City of Traitors
    4 Cloudpost
    4 Glimmerpost
    1 Inventors' Fair
    1 Petrified Field
    1 Thespian's Stage
    3 Vesuva

    Sideboard:15
    2 Faerie Macabre
    1 Platinum Angel
    1 Sundering Titan
    1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
    2 Sorcerous Spyglass
    1 Thorn of Amethyst
    1 Crucible of Worlds
    2 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Nevinyrral's Disk
    1 Orbs of Warding
    2 All Is Dust

    I did a little testing and if im sbing titan, i think hellkite has to take its place, if for no other reason as another finisher. Then im in your position, bc id never cut to fewer than 2 ballistae.
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  11. #4331

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by malfie13 View Post
    I wound up getting super sick on friday and couldnt make gp philly, but my list would have likely looked something like this:

    Deck: Legacy MUD 12-16-17.dec

    Counts : 61 main / 15 sideboard

    Creatures:16
    2 Walking Ballista
    4 Metalworker
    4 Lodestone Golem
    2 Kuldotha Forgemaster
    2 Wurmcoil Engine
    1 Platinum Emperion
    1 Blightsteel Colossus

    Spells:21
    3 Chalice of the Void
    3 Grim Monolith
    1 Lightning Greaves
    3 Thorn of Amethyst
    1 Crucible of Worlds
    2 Staff of Domination
    2 Trinisphere
    1 Bottled Cloister
    1 Ghirapur Orrery
    1 Staff of Nin
    1 Spine of Ish Sah
    2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

    Lands:24
    4 Ancient Tomb
    1 Buried Ruin
    2 Cavern of Souls
    3 City of Traitors
    4 Cloudpost
    4 Glimmerpost
    1 Inventors' Fair
    1 Petrified Field
    1 Thespian's Stage
    3 Vesuva

    Sideboard:15
    2 Faerie Macabre
    1 Platinum Angel
    1 Sundering Titan
    1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
    2 Sorcerous Spyglass
    1 Thorn of Amethyst
    1 Crucible of Worlds
    2 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Nevinyrral's Disk
    1 Orbs of Warding
    2 All Is Dust

    I did a little testing and if im sbing titan, i think hellkite has to take its place, if for no other reason as another finisher. Then im in your position, bc id never cut to fewer than 2 ballistae.
    No offense towards you. But i could never play your list. .

    61 cards is just sacrilege. Crucible of worlds is a great card, but in this current meta with deathrite shaman being everywhere, it becomes dead, too often. I still don't like the risk of getting blown out by them killing your cloister, and your opponent getting the free land drops too, from orrery. Also, I have almost never wanted both platinum creatures in the same 75. I think you are trying to do too much at once, noted by so many of the staple four of's being cut to 2's and 3's. Your list feels really scattered all over the place.

  12. #4332

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackHawkX9 View Post
    No offense towards you. But i could never play your list. .

    61 cards is just sacrilege. Crucible of worlds is a great card, but in this current meta with deathrite shaman being everywhere, it becomes dead, too often. I still don't like the risk of getting blown out by them killing your cloister, and your opponent getting the free land drops too, from orrery. Also, I have almost never wanted both platinum creatures in the same 75. I think you are trying to do too much at once, noted by so many of the staple four of's being cut to 2's and 3's. Your list feels really scattered all over the place.
    I absolutely love your lists malfie, but I gotta agree that I don't like the Crucible main.

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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by 1ron View Post
    I absolutely love your lists malfie, but I gotta agree that I don't like the Crucible main.
    Yeah, i feel you. 61 cards is absolutely fine in a tutor deck where mana isnt an issue. I didnt get to test with the mb crucible and it was a basic swap with titan, which felt odd on so many levels. Id probably swap them back. Havent been able to brew in a few days. Son was sick. Probably back to it tomorrow. Lol. I may play a nic fit in the local tourney tho. Dont want opponents getting too comfy.
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  14. #4334
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackHawkX9 View Post
    No offense towards you. But i could never play your list. .

    61 cards is just sacrilege. Crucible of worlds is a great card, but in this current meta with deathrite shaman being everywhere, it becomes dead, too often. I still don't like the risk of getting blown out by them killing your cloister, and your opponent getting the free land drops too, from orrery. Also, I have almost never wanted both platinum creatures in the same 75. I think you are trying to do too much at once, noted by so many of the staple four of's being cut to 2's and 3's. Your list feels really scattered all over the place.
    Hey. Fair enough. I understand that toying with existing strategies makes long time players uncomfortable. That said, i have def advised anyone whos asked to play test with orrery. It is a great card when good, and horrible when bad. I have rational reasons for many trims, mainly the mb thorns. If anything i find thorns most backbreaking, esp with lodestone, more than chalices, for ex. If theres any particular question you have regarding my lists, you're free to ask.
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  15. #4335

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by malfie13 View Post
    Hey. Fair enough. I understand that toying with existing strategies makes long time players uncomfortable. That said, i have def advised anyone whos asked to play test with orrery. It is a great card when good, and horrible when bad. I have rational reasons for many trims, mainly the mb thorns. If anything i find thorns most backbreaking, esp with lodestone, more than chalices, for ex. If theres any particular question you have regarding my lists, you're free to ask.
    On the more productive questioning side of things. I see that you have trimmed down to 2 trinispheres also. With so much taxation on our mana base, leaving a higher chance to get locked under our own trinisphere, I board out trinisphere alot in the current meta. Do you feel that trinisphere is as back breaking to our opponents now, as it used to be, to deserve it's main deck presence still?

  16. #4336

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackHawkX9 View Post
    On the more productive questioning side of things. I see that you have trimmed down to 2 trinispheres also. With so much taxation on our mana base, leaving a higher chance to get locked under our own trinisphere, I board out trinisphere alot in the current meta. Do you feel that trinisphere is as back breaking to our opponents now, as it used to be, to deserve it's main deck presence still?
    I am not sure I agree with your logic. There are few spells in our list that cost less than 3 and it has always been the case we aim to break the synergy of this effect. If our manabase is in ruins we are not casting anything.

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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by shallowend View Post
    I am not sure I agree with your logic. There are few spells in our list that cost less than 3 and it has always been the case we aim to break the synergy of this effect. If our manabase is in ruins we are not casting anything.

    Sent from my F3111 using Tapatalk
    Its not that i dislike trin, its that thorn is an easier t1 play. Its better vs many decks, like dt bc it hits creatures too. But vs the majority of the field, i like thorn and chalice more than trin to act as lock pieces.
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by malfie13 View Post
    Its not that i dislike trin, its that thorn is an easier t1 play. Its better vs many decks, like dt bc it hits creatures too. But vs the majority of the field, i like thorn and chalice more than trin to act as lock pieces.
    I, too, have cut down on Trinisphere. I think I’m on 2 if not 1 as a Tutor target for Forgemaster. Perhaps it’s
    My playstyle or my mulligan choices but I find myself seeing an early Trinisphere with City and then not able to draw out of it in time to take advantage of the tax. If our opponent is still playing a Delver the same turn as we are playing a Metalworker or Golem, did it really create an advantage?

  19. #4339

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by malfie13 View Post
    Its not that i dislike trin, its that thorn is an easier t1 play. Its better vs many decks, like dt bc it hits creatures too. But vs the majority of the field, i like thorn and chalice more than trin to act as lock pieces.
    I won't even play trinisphere against dnt most of the time. Between them able to revoker metalworker and grim monolith, or just swords metalworker, taking out our ramp, and wastelanding and rishadon porting our lands, I've found it very easy for dnt to be in a position to lock me under my own trinisphere.

    And that's not counting lands and maverick, with the recurring wastelands train to use 3 ball against us. Yes, 3ball can slow those decks down, but our window of opportunity is very small before they recover and use 3ball against us.

    And then there are all the flavors of delver, tempo, deathrite bullshitery that just runs 4 wastelands and all the disruption with counterspells and/or discard. Feels real bad to play trinisphere and they draw the 2-3 wasteland game vs you missing land drops or drawing city of traitors.

    Trinisphere is an amazing card, yes. But in the current more low to the ground tempo meta, I don't think it is as amazing as it used to be, vs options like, say, thorn of amethyst.

  20. #4340
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Interesting to hear everyone trimming down on Trinisphere; I've been liking it less lately, too. It's tempting to replace them with MD Thorn, though I'm apprehensive about taxing our own Ugins. He's so frequently a get-out-of-jail-free card, so I'd hate to shut myself out of a win because I can't afford to pay 9 or 10 to cast him. Maybe when you're running both Ballista and Ugin you can afford the risk, though, as Ballista gives you another pseudo-sweeper.

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