[Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

[Bobmans]

I'm looking for a MUD list to play on MTGO. Any suggestion what list to pick up?

MTGO metagame

Personally i would suggest the following build. Most raw power/utility/flexibility. This build adepts well switching from a balanced MUD build to anti 3 color tempo to anti combo. Ugin is just that good and most of the times games vs creature decks come down to resolving Ugin so 3 is the right number. Aside from that, the deck can power out a quick hasted colossus for that win now and win fast type of combo. While also being able to go prison vs combo decks like ANT or Burn or just adapt to combat SneakShow. While Revoker stops Sneak Attack or Griselbrand, it can also be used to hold down Liliana, which is a problem card when facing BUG. Offcourse the list can be tweaked to your own liked, which you defenitly should but not before playing it in the field. Also consider going to 61 cards maindeck if you want Spine of Ish Sah mainboard.

4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Emprion
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Sundering Titan
1 Steel Hellkite
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Domination
3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
3 Wasteland
3 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

sb:
2 Karn Liberated
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Defense Grid
1 Trinisphere
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Emperion/Angel
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Spine of Ish Sah

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

I believe I might have mentioned this deck list but hadn't posted it yet and have wanted to, if I have already I don't think I did , but would love feedback on it, was posted to SCG's website, http://www.starcitygames.com/article...In-Legacy.html , made by Drew Levin.


4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
3 Mountain
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Mox Opal

4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Steel Hellkite
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Goblin Welder

4 Faithless Looting
4 Grim Monolith
1 Staff Of Domination
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Lightning Greaves

...

How I would change the mana base of the deck,

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace (with Goblin Welder in the main)
4 Tree Of Tales, Seat of the Synod, Vault Of Whispers, Ancient Den
2 Gemstone Caverns
1-2 open slots, some two colour land, like a Mossfire Valley type, Darkwater Catacombs

cut Faithless Looting for some kind of good utility guy, I don't know what. another hate magnet 1-drop like Ulvenwald Tracker, some removal to deal with Delver. An answer to Batterskull would be nice .

[nerv2004]

I believe I might have mentioned this deck list but hadn't posted it yet and have wanted to, if I have already I don't think I did , but would love feedback on it, was posted to SCG's website, http://www.starcitygames.com/article...In-Legacy.html , made by Drew Levin.


4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
3 Mountain
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Mox Opal

4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Steel Hellkite
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Goblin Welder

4 Faithless Looting
4 Grim Monolith
1 Staff Of Domination
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Lightning Greaves

...

How I would change the mana base of the deck,

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace (with Goblin Welder in the main)
4 Tree Of Tales, Seat of the Synod, Vault Of Whispers, Ancient Den
2 Gemstone Caverns
1-2 open slots, some two colour land, like a Mossfire Valley type, Darkwater Catacombs

cut Faithless Looting for some kind of good utility guy, I don't know what. another hate magnet 1-drop like Ulvenwald Tracker, some removal to deal with Delver. An answer to Batterskull would be nice .

check out this welder deck. Placed 15th recently http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=83951

[Sockosensei]

I haven't had time to post this until now, but my friend placed 22nd at GP Kyoto (1943 players) running the following non-Post list.

MUD (Takumi Sugiyama, 12-3)

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Darksteel Citadel

1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Steel Hellkite
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan

2 Voltaic Key
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
3 Lightning Greaves
2 Trinisphere
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Staff of Nin
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Sideboard
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Emperion


He was particularly impressed by the performance of the 4 Mishra's Factory and Phyrexian Metamorph.
Voltaic Key allowed T1 Lodestone Golems on the play and generally helped with the mana.

He's a dedicated artifact player, having recently sold most of his decks to focus on MUD in Legacy and Shops in Vintage.

[Bobmans]

I haven't had time to post this until now, but my friend placed 22nd at GP Kyoto (1943 players) running the following non-Post list.

MUD (Takumi Sugiyama, 12-3)

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Darksteel Citadel

1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Steel Hellkite
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan

2 Voltaic Key
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
3 Lightning Greaves
2 Trinisphere
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Staff of Nin
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Sideboard
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Emperion


He was particularly impressed by the performance of the 4 Mishra's Factory and Phyrexian Metamorph.
Voltaic Key allowed T1 Lodestone Golems on the play and generally helped with the mana.

He's a dedicated artifact player, having recently sold most of his decks to focus on MUD in Legacy and Shops in Vintage.

I really like that build. Will defenitly try it and tweak it for a little bit. Did he happened to have written a report somewhere? Great result, especially with that amount of players.

[owerbart]

Hi. Maybe this is a very stupid question, but MUD hasn't played Mox Diamond in years, hasn't it?

[Bobmans]

Hi. Maybe this is a very stupid question, but MUD hasn't played Mox Diamond in years, hasn't it?

Well, it is card disadvantage and MUD has enough tools to ramp without the use of Mox Diamond. Besides Sol lands, Grim Monolith and Voltaic Key you could also play Lotus Petal, Mox Opal and perhaps even Cloudpost manabase which provide more then enough. 1 mana out of 2 cards is not what we want to be doing.

[RaZe]

Mix Diamond is used in Stax lists, in conjunction with Crucible.

[bruizar]

He was particularly impressed by the performance of the 4 Mishra's Factory and Phyrexian Metamorph.
Voltaic Key allowed T1 Lodestone Golems on the play and generally helped with the mana.

He's a dedicated artifact player, having recently sold most of his decks to focus on MUD in Legacy and Shops in Vintage.

I would argue from a strategy philosophy that Mishra's Factory makes A LOT of sense.

Mishra's Factory is a reverse Ancient Tomb. Where Ancient Tomb deals 2 damage to you, in exchange for 2 mana, Mishra's Factory costs 2 mana (to activate and attack) to deal 2 damage. It is essentially a late game equalizer for aggressive early game use of Ancient Tomb for ramp.

I like it.

[RaZe]

I would argue from a strategy philosophy that Mishra's Factory makes A LOT of sense.

Mishra's Factory is a reverse Ancient Tomb. Where Ancient Tomb deals 2 damage to you, in exchange for 2 mana, Mishra's Factory costs 2 mana (to activate and attack) to deal 2 damage. It is essentially a late game equalizer for aggressive early game use of Ancient Tomb for ramp.

I like it.

I find factory to be better suited for a prison like build instead of an explosive one like his. I feel like buried ruin would be better in that slot. Unless his meta is full of goblins, and other swarm decks where an early/ extra blocker would help. It does compliment Forgemaster in a unique way few other land does.

[Dice_Box]

I would argue from a strategy philosophy that Mishra's Factory makes A LOT of sense.

Mishra's Factory is a reverse Ancient Tomb. Where Ancient Tomb deals 2 damage to you, in exchange for 2 mana, Mishra's Factory costs 2 mana (to activate and attack) to deal 2 damage. It is essentially a late game equalizer for aggressive early game use of Ancient Tomb for ramp.

I like it.

I disagree. You have more power in the other spells in this deck than you have trying to slip something in under an opponent's defences. The strength of Factory is that it can enter play unimpeded and give you a push when you have an open field. It sucks when someone can cast a snapcaster, Brainstorm and block. Then they effectively Wasteland you for every little cost to themselves.

I am with RaZe, the card is better in decks that are more interested in locking out an opponent and then winning when you have control. This is the reason the card is normally found in decks like Landstill, Chalice Fish and White Stax. (Though two of them are dead decks.) It is also why a deck like Vintage Shops runs a set over something like City even though you have more artifact mana and thus can support City without sacing it a good amount of the time. It is just better to have something you can drop under your own lock and then beat down with.

[Sockosensei]

I disagree. You have more power in the other spells in this deck than you have trying to slip something in under an opponent's defences.

That's an unsuitable comparison because you're not cutting spells to fit Factories. The competition is between Factory and other value lands.

I'm trying out 3x Factory in my MUD-Post build instead of Wasteland just to see how it does. So far it's killed multiple Jace TMS, prevented Liliana from killing a key creature, chump blocked to buy a turn to win, been sacrificed to Forgemaster, and given me immediate pressure after a Terminus. I wouldn't say it has been overwhelmingly strong for me yet, but it has made a solid contribution.

I did also lose one Factory to a Snapcaster late in a game, exactly as you described. Make sure that you're in a position where you can afford to lose a land. Otherwise, don't attack.

Factory and Wasteland are stronger in my friend's list thanks to Crucible.

[Bane of the Living]

Hey guys!

I haven't been on these forums for a long time but there is a SCG Open near me next weekend I was thinking to attend. I really haven't played in any legacy tournaments since before Vengevine was printed and turned the format into Survival that was banned; So I have a lot of catch up to do.

A few quick questions I guess first because I know recent card printings changed the legacy that I once knew.

What are the popular non post lists' bad matchups and good matchups?

What quite frankly is the reason to play red over white?

I'll post my list in a moment.

[RaZe]

That's an unsuitable comparison because you're not cutting spells to fit Factories. The competition is between Factory and other value lands.

I'm trying out 3x Factory in my MUD-Post build instead of Wasteland just to see how it does. So far it's killed multiple Jace TMS, prevented Liliana from killing a key creature, chump blocked to buy a turn to win, been sacrificed to Forgemaster, and given me immediate pressure after a Terminus. I wouldn't say it has been overwhelmingly strong for me yet, but it has made a solid contribution.

I did also lose one Factory to a Snapcaster late in a game, exactly as you described. Make sure that you're in a position where you can afford to lose a land. Otherwise, don't attack.

Factory and Wasteland are stronger in my friend's list thanks to Crucible.

You are right in the sense that Factories are not competing for slots with spells but lands. So with all the examples you mentioned, let me post a question. Would <card>Buried Ruin</card> have been better/worse/nodifference? When you are behind, which would you rather draw?

[BTY]

You are right in the sense that Factories are not competing for slots with spells but lands. So with all the examples you mentioned, let me post a question. Would <card>Buried Ruin</card> have been better/worse/nodifference? When you are behind, which would you rather draw?

I don't think that factory is competing with slots for buried ruin as far as function. The thing with Buried Ruin is that it is very similar to Cavern of Souls. Buried Ruin is better against counter than cavern sometimes (non creature artifacts you want to stick) and worse than it in other situations. Ruin is basically the Cavern of Souls for discard. Obviously ruin is just always better against discard than cavern, but Cavern is usually better against counters. I'm not sure I would want to run both Cavern or Ruin, but there are arguments to be had for including both, so that is a reasonable stance. Obviously they are competing for the same slots in the mana base most of the time, but there are plenty of different advantages that you can't really compare them well.

The reason that factory simply isn't played is because you are prioritizing other "spell-lands". There are certain advantages to Factory that Buried Ruin, Cavern of Souls and Wasteland (those 3 are probably the most played "spell lands" in the deck) don't share. Factory is usually just always better Vs. planeswalkers like Jace and Liliana. Factory also helps chumping out of a turn, the chip-shots with factory add up, and it's usually a reasonable mana sink.

In the mana base of a MUD deck you want 8 Sol lands with probably about 20 lands total. This leaves you 12 slots, which really isn't a whole lot of room. Most people want 4 Caverns, which I think is the best place to cut to make room for Factory, especially if you are playing Buried Ruin. 4 Wasteland is also very common and understandably so, but it is another contentious land people might be willing to cut. That really only leaves you with 4 slots to play with, so you have to make a conscious decision about what you want your lands to do. It's very hard to get your cake and eat it, and this is a perfect example of that. Factory is a very powerful land, and a lot of decks have trouble removing Man lands from play. Factory has a lot of advantages, but to some (like you presumably) it isn't worth the added resilience to disruption that Ruin and Cavern give you.

I'd like to end with a question. In a lot of the situations Sockosensei brings up how valuable would buried ruin be there? The only one I think it is valuable is against Terminus, and in all the others it is probably just worse (I guess it could probably be good against Liliana, but that is pretty contextual). Ruin has other advantages factory doesn't but in those situations Factory is probably the best land available. The only other land I can think of that we play that could have been impactful in those would be Wasteland, but that is not always the case since decks come prepared for wasteland and can actually cast their spells most of the time.

[Bobmans]

Hey guys!

I haven't been on these forums for a long time but there is a SCG Open near me next weekend I was thinking to attend. I really haven't played in any legacy tournaments since before Vengevine was printed and turned the format into Survival that was banned; So I have a lot of catch up to do.

A few quick questions I guess first because I know recent card printings changed the legacy that I once knew.

What are the popular non post lists' bad matchups and good matchups?

What quite frankly is the reason to play red over white?

I'll post my list in a moment.

I guess you have a lot of catching up to do.
Basicly what happened after SotF got banned.

Griselbrand
Delver of Secrets
Batterskull
True-Name Nemesis
Terminus
Deathrite Shaman
Abrupt Decay
Omniscience
Dig Through Time
Liliana of the Veil
Thespian Stage
Young Pyromancer
Past in Flames
Gitaxian Probe
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Tempo got more efficient and doesnt rely on Tarmogoyf so it doesnt have to be Ugx. UW Landstill transformed to UWx Miracles. Show and Tell way to powerful. Reanimate and Storm got stronger and got more tools. GBx got a thing, mainly BUG Delver or Shardless BUG. GBx also made Jund and The Rock variant a thing. So did any white splashed deck with Stoneforge Mystic with Batterskull. Also Survival got replaced with NicFit, a list that has the same feel to it, but is different in its fundament (Veteran Explorer interaction with Cabal Therapy, is a GBx shell, uses Pernicious Deed and Green Sun's Zenith and has many variants in different offset colors). The format got faster, more complex (varied is not the correct word), more efficient. And Blue based lists still have an edge due to cardadvantage and cheap countermagic (FoW and Brainstorm still dominate).


White is a staxlike prison deck which is slow and controllish (proactive) by nature. It focusses on locking the game thru Chalice/Trinisphere/Lodestone Golem/Thalia and using other white cards to further lock the opponent while sealing it with Armaggedon. It is another deck (thread) actually.

Red is a more explosive version using graveyard interaction via Goblin Welder. Typically a (good) welder list tries to go off between t2-4, but still has good elements to proactive control/lock the game.

In between is the Cloudpost version (mono brown) which is more of a control version then red and is more consistent, then red, but more aggresive then white. Also the mono brown version is best suited for Ugin, the Spirit Dragon. The Cloudpost list has most options to consistently resolve Ugin.

Also there is a mono brown non Cloudpost list a couple of posts back that is quite good.

Good thing to do is scout the recent Top8's on mtgdecks or scg. That will give the best impression of the format.

[rlesko]

Hey guys, I've seen coercive portal pop up in a few lists, but I am wondering why it doesn't see more play. I'm trying to incorporate two into my list right now. Also, Still searching for the ideal number of Ugins main deck...

EDIT: Also, I don't think Mishra's factory is really what this deck wants to be doing. I've experimented in both post and non post builds, and I think I prefer Darksteel Citadel than Mishra's. The deck is already vulnerable to wasteland so Citadel is a hedge against that. Additionally, it combo's very well with Metalworker and forgemaster.

The list with 2 voltaic keys and Thran Dynamo is very interesting. I never played key due to the dis-synergy with Chalice of the Void, but when I was goldfishing the deck with key it just allows you to make insane amounts of mana, and not be reliant on your lands to do so.

[Bane of the Living]

4 Goblin Welder
4 Metal Worker
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Masticore
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Angel
1 Blightsteel Colossus

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lightning Greaves
4 Grim Monolith
4 Mox Opal

4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
6 Mountain

This is my maindeck right now. I am trying to run a high count of mountains because I feel as though Tempo Wasteland decks are my weak point. Death and Taxes seems kind of tough all though they usually scoop to a huge guy + Chalice at one.

As you can see I have a couple small alterations from many stock lists. I don't believe Voltaic Key is worth playing and costing you a precious card since it effectively does nothing on it's own. I like cogs, but if I had room the cog of choice would be Top along some fetch lands to replace basics. I really like that you can tap top and weld it away. I hate that it costs one and I want to Chalice for one, Welder already conflicts with that strategy but he is downright bonkers.

I play a couple Masticore in my list because I think he has great synergy with Welder, he also lives though removal such as bolt and Abrupt decay. If none of you have tried him I suggest you give him a chance.

Finally, perhaps an eye sore to some, I have the full set of Greaves. I think this is the most important card in the deck strategy, and I am fine with multiples to keep more than one robot hexproof or to ensure the combo victory more often. Most decks can't beat Angel + Greaves, even after sideboard.

I would love to get some comments on the list. Like I said I have done alot of casual play but I haven't played in large tournaments so I don't want to go in as a huge under dog.

[Bane of the Living]

I guess you have a lot of catching up to do.
Basicly what happened after SotF got banned.

Griselbrand
Delver of Secrets
Batterskull
True-Name Nemesis
Terminus
Deathrite Shaman
Abrupt Decay
Omniscience
Dig Through Time
Liliana of the Veil
Thespian Stage
Young Pyromancer
Past in Flames
Gitaxian Probe
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Tempo got more efficient and doesnt rely on Tarmogoyf so it doesnt have to be Ugx. UW Landstill transformed to UWx Miracles. Show and Tell way to powerful. Reanimate and Storm got stronger and got more tools. GBx got a thing, mainly BUG Delver or Shardless BUG. GBx also made Jund and The Rock variant a thing. So did any white splashed deck with Stoneforge Mystic with Batterskull. Also Survival got replaced with NicFit, a list that has the same feel to it, but is different in its fundament (Veteran Explorer interaction with Cabal Therapy, is a GBx shell, uses Pernicious Deed and Green Sun's Zenith and has many variants in different offset colors). The format got faster, more complex (varied is not the correct word), more efficient. And Blue based lists still have an edge due to cardadvantage and cheap countermagic (FoW and Brainstorm still dominate).


White is a staxlike prison deck which is slow and controllish (proactive) by nature. It focusses on locking the game thru Chalice/Trinisphere/Lodestone Golem/Thalia and using other white cards to further lock the opponent while sealing it with Armaggedon. It is another deck (thread) actually.

Red is a more explosive version using graveyard interaction via Goblin Welder. Typically a (good) welder list tries to go off between t2-4, but still has good elements to proactive control/lock the game.

In between is the Cloudpost version (mono brown) which is more of a control version then red and is more consistent, then red, but more aggresive then white. Also the mono brown version is best suited for Ugin, the Spirit Dragon. The Cloudpost list has most options to consistently resolve Ugin.

Also there is a mono brown non Cloudpost list a couple of posts back that is quite good.

Good thing to do is scout the recent Top8's on mtgdecks or scg. That will give the best impression of the format.

Thanks for the info! It seems crazy how much the cards you listed had an impact on the format. When I was more involved with Legacy it seemed the biggest changes came from alterations on the ban list or card erratas, now we have cards that put Tarmogoyf in the corner.

[Bobmans]

4 Goblin Welder
4 Metal Worker
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Masticore
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Angel
1 Blightsteel Colossus

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lightning Greaves
4 Grim Monolith
4 Mox Opal

4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
6 Mountain

This is my maindeck right now. I am trying to run a high count of mountains because I feel as though Tempo Wasteland decks are my weak point. Death and Taxes seems kind of tough all though they usually scoop to a huge guy + Chalice at one.

As you can see I have a couple small alterations from many stock lists. I don't believe Voltaic Key is worth playing and costing you a precious card since it effectively does nothing on it's own. I like cogs, but if I had room the cog of choice would be Top along some fetch lands to replace basics. I really like that you can tap top and weld it away. I hate that it costs one and I want to Chalice for one, Welder already conflicts with that strategy but he is downright bonkers.

I play a couple Masticore in my list because I think he has great synergy with Welder, he also lives though removal such as bolt and Abrupt decay. If none of you have tried him I suggest you give him a chance.

Finally, perhaps an eye sore to some, I have the full set of Greaves. I think this is the most important card in the deck strategy, and I am fine with multiples to keep more than one robot hexproof or to ensure the combo victory more often. Most decks can't beat Angel + Greaves, even after sideboard.

I would love to get some comments on the list. Like I said I have done alot of casual play but I haven't played in large tournaments so I don't want to go in as a huge under dog.

Angel + Greaves is dangerous. As i said the format is more complex. Eventually (from experience) it gets down to finding a way to remove the Angel in order to win. Most decks have an out in some way. While Platinum Emporion can't prevent you from losing in any situation it does put most situations on pauze and losing emperion doesnt lose you the game.

Anyway, just for reference the latest list of glascannon Welder Mud i was working on (61 card maindeck):

Turbo Welder:

1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Emperion
2 Steel Hellkite/(Razormane) Masticore/Spine of Ish Sah
2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Goblin Welder
3 Lightning Greaves
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 (3) Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
3 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Opal
2 Mountain
4 Great Furnace
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Trinisphere
SB: 1 Sundering Titan
SB: 1 Platinum Emperion
SB: 2 Ensnaring Bridge/Defense Grid
SB: 1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon/Spine of Ish Sah
SB: 2 Karn Liberated

This deck tries to punch thru G1 via combo/aggro totally ignoring the opponent and overload. G2 and G3 i put more focus on specific hate / or anti tech, as you will, while keeping the best wincon suited for that matchup in the deck.

Edit: playing 4 Mox Opal is kinda dangerous, keeping you of the 3rd artifact will disrupt development of your boardstate. Also not running Cavern of Souls while having both Welder as Chalice MD is not the best thing to do. Chalice will most of the times be played on 1.