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Thread: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

  1. #2001

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by ivanpei View Post
    Not sure if my MUD 8 moon belongs here or the Dragon Stompy thread. Anyway I'm running this list to great success, specifically to rape BUG.

    4 Chalice
    4 Blood Moon
    4 Magus of the Moon
    4 Metalworker
    4 Grim Monolith
    4 Lodestone
    4 Forgemaster
    2 Wurmcoil
    1 Sundering Titan
    3 Lightning Greaves
    4 Lotus Petal
    2 Mox Diamond

    6 Mountain
    4 Great Furnace
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    2 Darksteel Citadel

    The deck is basically MUD with moons. I've trimmed all the high casting cost stuff for moons because in this meta, resolved moon= gg. Doesn't matter if you can't cast your high cc stuff with a moon in play, if you resolve it you've won. It's also not too difficult to cast a Wurmcoil off basic mountains and a Grim Monolith or Metalworker.

    Plan A is the Moon screw plan and Plan B is the MUD stompy plan. If the moons get countered or destroyed, the deck shifts to MUD monsters.

    Why not just play Dragon stompy? Because 3 cc and 4 cc Red creatures are terrible. Rabble master and mogg catcher? Cmon, they can't stand up to SFM, Tarmogoyf and Co.

    The issue I had with Dragon Stompy is that once plan A (Moon Plan) fails, the rest of the deck is too underpowered to put up a fight. By combining MUDs powerful base with moons, it's become a pretty strong wrecking ball.
    I think that going all in on blood moon is a terrible plan. What if they already have a threat in play and you can't cast anything to out class it or race it. I think this deck just looks like the weakest parts of both strategies. You don't have the same mana acceleration that dragonstompy does so you can't drop a turn 1 moon and you don't have the same lategame staying power. Imagine you play against miracles, a deck that is generally largely immune to blood moon. Now you have 8 useless cards that screw you more than the opponent that you have the chance to draw while you are trying to go long. MUD and dragonstompy already have an issue with top decking like shit, MUD makes up for it with it's "bombs" like wurmcoil, titan, or karn which a lot of decks can't deal with and dragonstompy makes it up with explosiveness, and this deck basically just plays a weak dragonstompy gameplan with a weak MUD gameplan.

  2. #2002
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    My issue with the original mud lists is that your bombs cost too much. The main issue is that once Metalworker gets killed and Grim Monolith has been tapped, the MUD deck stalls out. I've come to realise that even MUD can run only so many high cc cards like Wurmcoil and Karn.

    I then started to look around for lower cc cards that are splashy enough. The best ones were still the moons. Powering the out is easy. We have the same 8 sol lands manabase. Instead of SSG, we have lotus Petal which much decks are already running. Instead of chrome we have Mox Diamond. The acceleration base is similar to the Forgemaster Welder builds.

    I've played all sorts of mud lists including the an dynamo - all is dust ones. They were really slow and fragile. It's up to you if you think it's junk, but you should try it out. It will surprise you.

  3. #2003
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by ivanpei View Post
    My issue with the original mud lists is that your bombs cost too much. The main issue is that once Metalworker gets killed and Grim Monolith has been tapped, the MUD deck stalls out. I've come to realise that even MUD can run only so many high cc cards like Wurmcoil and Karn.

    I then started to look around for lower cc cards that are splashy enough. The best ones were still the moons. Powering the out is easy. We have the same 8 sol lands manabase. Instead of SSG, we have lotus Petal which much decks are already running. Instead of chrome we have Mox Diamond. The acceleration base is similar to the Forgemaster Welder builds.

    I've played all sorts of mud lists including the an dynamo - all is dust ones. They were really slow and fragile. It's up to you if you think it's junk, but you should try it out. It will surprise you.


    I really wish blood moon in mono red was good. The problem I have with moons is that it's not good enough to not run chalice and even if it were, it turns off fetches + top which was the first thing I wanted to suggest when I looked at your list. Is the land base a problem for you? If you wanna run moon effects, why not just play painter's stone?

    I suggest starting an idea for a new deck with the actual win con, then see if blood moon cuts it. Bc an enchantment that only effects nonbasic lands isn't GG in most matches, like sneak and show, miracles, nic fit, elves(which is everywhere), dredge, maverick, white wenie or "death and taxes", goblins, burn, and much more.
    Primary deck: Mud
    Secondary deck: Burn
    Building: Nic Fit

  4. #2004

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    The issue of the curve has been brought up before. The general choice is to run the goblin welder build to lower your cmc along with create gy recursion,

    Other Creatures to consider would be Revoker and Batterskull to lower the cmc while continuing the plan A of Lock out and play big dumb idiots.
    Look back through and you can see plenty of ideas in lists to lower cmc without bringing in Moons.

    About moon in Mud. Blood Moon works best in iPainter. The reason it does so well in that deck is because it can be pushed out really quick through sol lands and SSG. Once blood moon is out in a painter list, the player can generally run the rest of the game with as little 2 lands in play. MUD does not have this luxury. We are trying to get those big dudes out along with soft lock our opponent. While we do have Monolith and Metalworker, they are not enough to get the mana to consistently cast our hand (even with a semi lower cmc).

    Also Sundering Titan + 8 Moons seems kinda poo...



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  5. #2005
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Sundering Titan is for Forgemaster. And yes I have managed to hard cast Sundering Titan before. I'm ok if you guys aren't convinced with the list. Im having the same discussion over on the dragon stompy thread for those who are interested.

  6. #2006
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    I think overall the protection suite of 8moon + Trinisphere + Chalice along with acceleration in the form of sol lands + Petals + SSG (or whatever) is really really powerful. It can lock out a lot of decks as early as T1, but (aside from 8moon on greedy manabases) decks can come back. The question is, how fast and how consistently can you finish the game? MUD shells on itself have a very quick comboish game, but at times can be rather clunky. "polluting" the manabase into needing more red and adding more non-artifacts will, as i suspect, make the deck more clunky.

    I am skeptical, but i really like that "lock-out-of-the-game" lists T1. I will try it some time.

  7. #2007
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    I'll be playing my list from a few pages back this week at side events for GP Orlando. Probably adding a SDT or 2 for a change, maybe in place of keys. Decided not to run sundering titan or doom engine. Hopefully I won't get my butt kicked by elves and infect.
    Primary deck: Mud
    Secondary deck: Burn
    Building: Nic Fit

  8. #2008
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by ivanpei View Post
    My issue with the original mud lists is that your bombs cost too much. The main issue is that once Metalworker gets killed and Grim Monolith has been tapped, the MUD deck stalls out. I've come to realise that even MUD can run only so many high cc cards like Wurmcoil and Karn.

    I then started to look around for lower cc cards that are splashy enough. The best ones were still the moons. Powering the out is easy. We have the same 8 sol lands manabase. Instead of SSG, we have lotus Petal which much decks are already running. Instead of chrome we have Mox Diamond. The acceleration base is similar to the Forgemaster Welder builds.

    I've played all sorts of mud lists including the an dynamo - all is dust ones. They were really slow and fragile. It's up to you if you think it's junk, but you should try it out. It will surprise you.
    I have had this similar issue before as well. What I did instead of Moons was load up on Sphere effects and fuel them with 12post mana base.

    It essentially does the same thing but isn't dead again decks that disregard moons. They still can't cast anything while you have 2-3 mana to do your thing. It also helps to lower the overall casting cost of the deck like what you said. I know 12post will create tons of mana but resistors also affect you.
    I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
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  9. #2009
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by (nameless one) View Post
    I have had this similar issue before as well. What I did instead of Moons was load up on Sphere effects and fuel them with 12post mana base.

    It essentially does the same thing but isn't dead again decks that disregard moons. They still can't cast anything while you have 2-3 mana to do your thing. It also helps to lower the overall casting cost of the deck like what you said. I know 12post will create tons of mana but resistors also affect you.
    You have been testing this quite a bit as i read back the thread. At what point are you currently at testing this?

    Last weekend i have done the exact opposite and took out all the protection mainboard. The list is near similar to Zac Hicks in the OP. It was fast. O my. I overloaded on Patriot (2-1), Storm (2-0 (10 minute match)), Lost to dredge (1-2) Went for Blightsteel game 1, while i should have gotten Platinum Emporium as most dredge have no out against that game 1. And 2x Miracles (1-2) and (1-1). Both Miracles matchups where close, but it basiscly comes down to who has the more cards to play/disrupt... I found that the deck was on fire and it was actually harder to disrupt since nearly everything i drew/casted was business.

  10. #2010

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by ivanpei View Post
    My issue with the original mud lists is that your bombs cost too much. The main issue is that once Metalworker gets killed and Grim Monolith has been tapped, the MUD deck stalls out. I've come to realise that even MUD can run only so many high cc cards like Wurmcoil and Karn.

    I then started to look around for lower cc cards that are splashy enough. The best ones were still the moons. Powering the out is easy. We have the same 8 sol lands manabase. Instead of SSG, we have lotus Petal which much decks are already running. Instead of chrome we have Mox Diamond. The acceleration base is similar to the Forgemaster Welder builds.

    I've played all sorts of mud lists including the an dynamo - all is dust ones. They were really slow and fragile. It's up to you if you think it's junk, but you should try it out. It will surprise you.
    My main problem with the deck is that it doesn't solve the main problem of either archetype which is consistency. The thing that really holds MUD back from being a tier 1 deck is the fact that the deck is reasonably inconsistent. Compound the fact that you are playing a deck that isn't as good at the dragonstompy plan as dragonstompy or as good at the MUD plan as MUD is concerning. I don't want to discredit it as I have very little testing with it so far, only a couple games, but as of now it just seems like a weaker version of both decks.

  11. #2011

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by whatwas View Post
    I'll be playing my list from a few pages back this week at side events for GP Orlando. Probably adding a SDT or 2 for a change, maybe in place of keys. Decided not to run sundering titan or doom engine. Hopefully I won't get my butt kicked by elves and infect.
    Best of luck in orlando, here are some thoughts for you. I never liked SDT, since the decks only shuffle effect is kuldotha (and you should win after a kuldotha activate) meaning it only really cheats something for 1 turn, then you're back to topdeck mode. SDT gets better with voltaic key, but that's asking for 2 cards, and 2-3 mana a turn to draw an extra card (not to mention chalice problems). I have been running 1-2 coercive portals and have been damn impressed. They get boarded out against faster decks, but something to look into.

    Infect is a pretty terrible matchup. Running platinum angel somewhere in the 75 would help.

    I think 1 batterskull and 1 wurmcoil engine is preferable to 2 wurmcoils. Each card has its relative merits, and boards states where it is preferable to the other, while they fill essentially the same roll (a big beater that is hard to remove and gains life).

    I also think 4 kudlothas and 4 cavern of souls is mandatory. I always want a kuldotha in my hand, always. And cavern helps a greedy deck ignore spell pierce/daze/force, makes colored mana for goblin welder, and helps welder get around chalice.

    Just some thoughts, hope it helps

  12. #2012
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by honz View Post
    Best of luck in orlando, here are some thoughts for you. I never liked SDT, since the decks only shuffle effect is kuldotha (and you should win after a kuldotha activate) meaning it only really cheats something for 1 turn, then you're back to topdeck mode. SDT gets better with voltaic key, but that's asking for 2 cards, and 2-3 mana a turn to draw an extra card (not to mention chalice problems). I have been running 1-2 coercive portals and have been damn impressed. They get boarded out against faster decks, but something to look into.

    Infect is a pretty terrible matchup. Running platinum angel somewhere in the 75 would help.

    I think 1 batterskull and 1 wurmcoil engine is preferable to 2 wurmcoils. Each card has its relative merits, and boards states where it is preferable to the other, while they fill essentially the same roll (a big beater that is hard to remove and gains life).

    I also think 4 kudlothas and 4 cavern of souls is mandatory. I always want a kuldotha in my hand, always. And cavern helps a greedy deck ignore spell pierce/daze/force, makes colored mana for goblin welder, and helps welder get around chalice.

    Just some thoughts, hope it helps
    Thanks! I agree completely. The only thing I'm not sure on its portals. But hey if all for fun this weekend anyways and I get the free batterskull for attendance and free entry to one side event. What the hay. lol.
    Primary deck: Mud
    Secondary deck: Burn
    Building: Nic Fit

  13. #2013

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    I have been play testing my list for awhile now. I recently have added a main board spellskite for the infect match.

    The Spellskite has been doing miracles. It also has shored up burn a bit too.

  14. #2014
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sleight View Post
    I have been play testing my list for awhile now. I recently have added a main board spellskite for the infect match.

    The Spellskite has been doing miracles. It also has shored up burn a bit too.
    Sounds like a great idea.
    Primary deck: Mud
    Secondary deck: Burn
    Building: Nic Fit

  15. #2015

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    After testing today I am afraid of that u/r delver list with treasure cruise. I was only winning with nut hands.

  16. #2016
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sleight View Post
    After testing today I am afraid of that u/r delver list with treasure cruise. I was only winning with nut hands.
    Has Platinum Emperion been discussed as an option against that?
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  17. #2017

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    I just took mine out of my list. I thought it seemed too broad and that having two batterskull in the 75 made most of those matches good enough. I just replaced the emperion with sundering titan and I think I like it more as a target.

    That being said I think emperion is the best target in that match.
    The problem is it is hard to live to a forgemaster activation a lot of the time. Anyone who plays 12 post list, does glimmer post help in these type of matches?

  18. #2018
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    I think that 12post lists are too slow against decks like UR Delve or Burn. The list from Zac Hicks in the OP is actually doing a much better job, although that list needs some slight tweaking. Being able to consistently land a Platinum Emporium on t3 is soo good. Cavern of Souls on construct can be key here. G2/3 i think T1 3sphere is better to go for then Chalice @ 1. 3sphere disables every spell they have instead of half of them. No more free Daze or FoW. Also most Artifact hate costs 2 since they know it destroy a Chalice @ 1. In some cases a Sundering Titan can be more crippling with 3sphere out then a Platinum Emporium as it sets UR lists 2 turns back during.

    Sundering Titan is still important in the match-ups where Platinum Emporium is less good. I will always be running a 1/1 split and have a 1/1 split on the board so i can board them in against them wedged coloured greedy Delver or Jund decks.

  19. #2019

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    UR delver/young pyro is another pretty poor matchup. Running some number of thousand-year elixir is helpful. Elixir allows you to actually use metalworkers, and gives you a better chance/faster use of kuldotha. Lightning greaves is still good here too, but running elixir as well gives you a better chance of using your money cards (metalworker and kuldotha).

    This is also a matchup where you want 4x cavern of souls to ignore daze/force. Ratchet bombs in the board are nice too. I would say silent arbiter is okay, but delver makes the arbiter pretty meh. If you are running red for welder/moon, pyroclasm or something like it (i.e. bonfire of the damned) is an option if you are expecting alot of young pryo and aggro decks (which seem rather popular to me).

    Just a small point, but if you are running 1 platinum emperion in the main and 1 in the SB, i would suggest you change the 1 in the SB to platinum angel for the infect matchup. Obviously emperion is better against burn, but angel is still relevant against burn, and actually does something against infect (and to a lesser extent, painter/stone and any helm/rip deck).
    Last edited by honz; 10-02-2014 at 07:04 PM.

  20. #2020
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Here is my latest build: All-in-Tinker

    MAINDECK:
    __________________
    Bombs
    1x Spine of Ish Sah
    1x Blightsteel Colossus
    1x Possessed Portal
    1x Mycosynth Lattice
    1x Sundering Titan
    __________________
    Misc.
    4x Chalice of the Void
    2x Liquimetal Coating
    1x Lightning Greaves
    __________________
    Tinkers
    4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
    4x Arcum Dagsson
    2x Karn, Silver Golem
    __________________
    Creatures
    4x Lodestone Golem
    4x Phyrexian Revoker
    4x Metalworker
    1x Spellskite
    __________________
    Ramp
    3x Grim Monolith
    2x Voltaic Key
    _____________________
    Land
    1x Island
    4x Cavern of Souls
    4x Seat of the Synod
    4x Ancient Tomb
    4x City of Traitors
    3x Mishra’s Factory


    SIDEBOARD:
    _____________________
    1x Platinum Emperion
    1x Darksteel Forge
    2x Tormod’s Crypt
    4x Flusterstorm
    4x Trinisphere
    3x Blue Elemental Blast

    GAMEPLAN
    The reason why I made this deck is because Arcum Dagsson always looked much stronger to me than Kuldotha Forgemaster, and the fact that the Kuldotha Forgemaster builds have been more successful than those that do not run it. My fascination with Arcum Dagsson started with Kuldotha Forgemaster. I've often played against Kuldotha Forgemaster players and managed to disrupt the activation. That basically results in a one-sided Oblivion Stone. Arcum Dagsson is much more friendly to your board position, tinkering artifacts at a 1 to 1 ratio instead of a 3 to 1 ratio. The caveat is that you must sacrifice an artifact creature, and that you tinker a non-creature artifact in exchange. Another advantage is that Arcum Dagsson can tinker away your opponent's creatures if they become artifacts. If you have a Voltaic Key out, you can activate Arcum Dagsson, tinker for a Mycosynth Lattice and untap Arcum Dagsson using your Voltaic Key to activate it again.

    SCD
    Liquimetal Coating
    - Used with Arcum Dagsson to send opponent's creatures to the graveyard.
    - Used with Kuldotha Forgemaster to turn a non-artifact land into an artifact -> Sack liquimetal coating, land and Kuldotha Forgemaster to tinker
    - Used with Karn, Silver Golem to destroy lands. Add Voltaic Key to chain gun lands.

    Mishra's Factory
    Fodder for Arcum Dagsson and Kuldotha Forgemaster

    Arcum Dagsson
    - Tinker for Lattice, then tinker away opponent's creatures
    - Tinker away opponent's creatures with Liquimetal Coating

    Karn, Silver Golem
    - With Mycosynth Lattice or Liquimetal Coating to machine gun lands.

    Flusterstorm
    One mana counter that dodges Chalice of the Void.
    Last edited by bruizar; 10-04-2014 at 06:28 AM.

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