Lightning bolt?Originally Posted by Mockingbird
Unsynergy with trinisphere?
Amethyst is better because t1 pseudo timewalk?
1. I think there has been discuss in this thread a while back that said dying to lightning bolt is a terrible excuse for not including a creature. The fact that creatures die to removal isn't a great argument against playing them. Of course creatures are going to die to removal, that's the point of removal and if you go by that definition of playable creature bases would be terrible. People still pay deathrite, delver, thalia, stoneforge, and dark confidant and they all die to the most relevant removal in the format. I know comparing lodestone to all of those besides thalia (both disrupt mana, are respectable clocks, usually turn 2 plays, beat a lot of creatures in combat) but the idea is still relevant.
2. Sure there is not great synergy with 3sphere but trinisphere doesn't resolve a lot and being able to slam a lodestone after they deal with trinisphere is a pretty good. Lodestone is one of the best clocks and it hinders us in no way while disrupting the opponent. Trinisphere is great and all but if you do nothing of any relevance for the entire game they will beat it but lodestone disrupts their game plan while putting them on a 4 turn clock. Also trinisphere does nothing to stop a Jace or Liliana and Lodestone can buy you time against them which can be critical a lot of the time.
3. Creatures are very playable, the best turn 1 plays for fair decks are probably deathrite or maybe delver and both are creatures which prevents the pseudo time walk. Decks are used to playing through Thalia (obviously thorn with legs) so thorn diminishes in value. The same argument can be made for lodestone but at worst lodestone is a 5/3 which is nothing to laugh at and it slows down creatures. Another problem with thorn in this kind of shell is that we have less mana denial than D&T and we don't have a lot of great ways to "cheat" our threats into play while continuing to disrupt our opponents, generally in legacy artifacts (aether vial) are less vulnerable than creatures (metalworker) which makes their mana denial elements stronger. MUD isn't a prison deck, prison was already dying and with the printing of treasure cruise prison just seems to be getting worse and worse in the format. MUD is basically a disruptive aggro/midrange deck that aims to get the opponent on the back foot with "lock" pieces then seal up the game quickly with basically any threat, be it lodestone, forgemaster or wurmcoil. It is very hard for us to play the control role, with the exception of against combo, we have to do something to effect the board or just play something like a t1 or t2 trinisphere and the opponent just can't keep up or you aren't going to win. Without the great and fast mana of vintage shop decks it is just hard for us to overload on sphere effects without diluting our deck with a bunch of do-nothings, vintage decks can do this because if they dump a bunch of spheres backed up by tangle wires and wastelands and 1 threat they are probably going to get there. We can't afford to sit on ass for that long, Lodestone gives us a taxing effect while also putting on tremendous pressure. You have to remember we are a deck with an extremely small amount of library manipulation and has very little effective ways to draw cards which makes it very hard for us to effectively play the control role so you have to be proactive in your disruption and lodestone is a prime example of that.
This is my current build I just started testing:
//Lands: 24
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
3 Wasteland
//Creatures: 18
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Steel Hellkite
2 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine
//Artifacts: 18
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Grim Monolith
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Staff of Domination
1 Staff of Nin
4 Trinisphere
//Sideboard: 15
2 All is Dust
1 Duplicant
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Karn Liberated
1 Spine of Ish Sah
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Staff of Nin
3 Tormod's Crypt
It's nothing too special at the moment, and to be honest, I'm not sure how done I am with the deck.
Choices that might not be self explanatory:
Crucible of Worlds is actually less about me establishing Wasteland lock and more about having an ability to work with City of Traitors. For a singleton, it pulls its weight helping reinforce my mana base as well as occasionally getting lucky with Wasteland lock. And I don't see it enough for it to be dead.
Ratchet Bomb is at the moment a preboard because the appearance of Delve(r) (my shorthand to URx Delver with Delve cards), the meta game is getting more hyper aggressive. Otherwise, the Karn Liberated in the sideobard would occupy thess slots.
Staff of Nin is in this deck to help grind long games. MUD is notorious for being frustrating in Top-deck mode, and there are numerous X/1's on the scene right now. Six mana may seem underwhelming for it's effect, but in my experience, it's well worth the investment. I do have concerns with the above mentioned hyper aggressive outpacing this card, but I would suggest at least one for the side board because this card is a nightmare for a Miracles player.
Sundering Titan #2 is because with Post mana on top of MUD Sol/Grim/Metalworker mana, I have a strong desire to attack opposing Mana bases hard. It's spot is not set in stone because Delve(r) and in the background Infect threatening certain death by turn 3, I may squeeze in a Platinum Angel into the deck.
And my side... it's kind of a mess. So any and all suggestions are welcomed.
"Let go your earthly tether. Enter the void, empty, and become wind."
Mario Andretti MUD... Just had to squeeze this new Commander 2014 planeswalker in my Welder build.
Replaced 2x Sensei's Divining Top and 2x Voltaic Key (cus the Planeswalker is doing kinda both things) for 2x Daretti, 1x Crucible of Worlds (color fixing and Welder/Daretti shenanigans) and 1x Staff of Domination (i guess this new walker also fixes hands required for the staff to actually win).
It may so happen that the list needs more color fixing, but first i want to test it. Offcourse this list tries to be as fast as possible and i might actually miss SDT in that regard. If i can't combo t2/3 or for whatever reason the game shifts into midgame then the new walker might be able to outgrind the opponent. Can't wait to find out.
If you're wondering why this akward sideboard? I wanted full combo potential game 1 to be able to overload the opponent (which works pretty amazing). I know people swear by Chalice, but it doesn't help with the stratigy very often. Chalice is very good in some situations obviously. So it only comes in when it might make enough impact on the opponent (Miracles, Reanimate, etc) and when you're on the play. Being on the draw it might actually suk depending on the matchup. Also i don't like to board in more then 5 cards so often it is either 4x 3Sphere or 4x Chalice plus a Titan or a Emperion depending on the matchup.
All is Dust was in the slot of 3x Whipflare. All is Dust while a Welder was on the board wasn't really a problem, but i don't like the idea of nuking my Mario Andretti. Still not to sure tho. I might also go for Ratchet Bomb for the reasons Mockingbird stated in the previous post.
Also no grave hate, most of the time my angle of attack makes it so that graveyard interactions are shut down (3Sphere vs Flashback) or the benefit of the graveyard can be neglected (Chalice @ 1) or the deck is just faster/able to race.
2 Daretti, Scrap Savant
4 Goblin Welder
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Domination
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Lightning Greaves
4 Grim Monolith
4 Metalworker
3 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Opal
2 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Great Furnace
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Trinisphere
SB: 3 Whipflare
SB: 2 Karn Liberated
SB: 1 Sundering Titan
SB: 1 Platinum Emperion
Edit: Just wondering if you can return the sacrificed artifact with -2 ability of Daretti or that you cannot, since you have to announce target's first?
Play 3 ratchet main. Look at rachet as a mini karn that thus also disrupts their plans. Delver/batterskull/deathrite/elves/goblins/revoker everythibg dies from ratchet. Even truename nemesis. And ocasionnaly it takes out a piece wich we have to destroy like jace or whatever locks the game.
I'm on the bandwagon. Daretti MUD will be the sole focus for now. I feel I need to point out the following:
Daretti has 'haste', before passing priority, you can activate your ability
Daretti survives Lightning Bolt, because you don't pass priority, you can +2 him before it can be bolted
Daretti draws! It is important to note that daretti does not discard at random
Daretti is unaffected by creature removal
Daretti is unaffected by abrupt decay
Daretti comes in the best color for MUD
@ Bobmans, I would up the number of Daretti's to 3 (if not 4). I feel Daretti is to MUD what Tezzeret AOB is for UB Tezz.
You might be right on the numbers for Daretti, but i might just cut a petal for Daretti nr 3. Then ill just use that as a starting point.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
Yes, we need to start somewhere. There's a lot of new design space for MUD.
What I really, really like is how MUD finally gets a good draw engine that makes sense. Remember, some people play Staff of Nin. This is so much better than Staff of Nin. The 12 post decks will still run colorless builds, but for red mud / Godo mud, this card is exactly what was needed. Chalice can still be played, and the issue of creature removal on Welder / summoning sickness is gone. It's also a really easy splash so we can still use sol lands to full effect.
Also, Tangle Wire seems really effective with this planeswalker as it can buy turns that can be used to get more activations.
This deck might have to take more of a Big Artifacts direction with this guy. Playing 4 Welders and 3-4 of this guy means that you have a way to "weld" in big artifacts in nearly every game. Faithless Looting might even make an appearance and turn this into more of a combo-like build with stuff like Mindslaver and more Sundering Titans.
This is an attempt to create a comprehensive list of all the bombs available. Many of them are not good enough, but some may be worth considering:
* Darksteel Forge
* Possessed Portal
* Duplicant
* Triskelavus
* Spine of Ish Sah
* Nevyniral's Disk
* Sundering Titan
* Myr Battlesphere - Lots of chump blockers and welder fodder
* Smokestack
* Inkwell Leviathan / Sphinx of the Steel Wind -> Both immune to red artifact removal post-board.
* Steel Hellkite
* Phyrexian Metamorph
* Mindslaver
* Wurmcoil Engine
* Bosh Iron Golem
* Platinum Emperion
* Platinum Angel
Edit
Contagion Engine
Last edited by bruizar; 10-29-2014 at 12:42 PM.
@ Alex Holland, you seem a little stuck between playing stax and playing MUD. I just wanted to address a couple things...
TheYoungster hit the nail on the head. If you want to run tangle wires, and spheres and thorns, you need to run more mana destruction cards like crucible of worlds, smokestack, armageddon, suppression field, wildfire...etc to truly lock your opponent out of the game. At which point you are no longer playing MUD, you are playing stax, which has its own thread. Without completely locking out your opponent somehow, you are just playing cards that slow down an already slow deck. Beating a turn 1 delver becomes nearly impossible.
Again, this is not a control deck. We are not looking to disrupt or get board control or lock anyone out of the game. Chalice is there to protect our cards. The goal is to go over the top of and race delver/goblins/death and taxes, not to play the value game. People will play ratchet bomb in the board mainly to answer hate cards like phyrexian revoker, pithing needle, blood moon, ensnaring bridge, meddling mage, and things like that. It can also be uesful to clear out tokens from entreat the angels and young pyro.
Sundering titan is a must-play card in this deck because there are just too many things that can answer a blighsteel, such as swords to plowshares, councils judgement, liliana of the veil, jace, echoing truth, terminus...etc. Almost every deck runs some answer. Although all of these answer sundering titan as well, titan will take most of their lands with him. If you catch somebody tapped out, or with no cards in hand, or you read their mind, or you have to race them, then blighsteel is the better grab. If you are facing a miracles player who has 7 cards in hand and an untapped plains, titan is the better choice (or even staff of nin).
@Whipflare
I don't like this card because it doesn't kill phyrexian revoker, and I hate death and taxes. Also there's a tezz player in my area, and baleful strix is annoying as hell.
@Mario Andaretti
This card has me really excited. With the 12-post lists getting the majority of the high profile results recently, I think the welder lists are very strong and highly underrated. I hope this will get more people into playing welder and MUD in general. His ultimate is disappointing, but with the minus being so good, I doubt you would ever want it anyhow. With no testing, I would say 2-3 along with 6-7 red sources.
Faithless looting seems excessive since daretti comes with a looting included, and space is tight. I also always hated how looting is card disadvantage.
Cutting chalice is probably a mistake too, since elves and UR delver and miracles are the decks to beat right now, in my mind.
Nope. Much like how recurring nightmare works, you have to announce the target as you activate the ability, so the sacrificed artifact will not be in your graveyard at that time.
I don't agree. I think kuldotha is still the prize pony for the deck, with daretti just being another way to enable it, with the added bonus of doing his job for him at times.
@bruizar
Contagion engine is probably the only other playable one.
Contagion Engine
Wow, proliferate actually helps to ramp our new planeswalker! That means +4 loyalty every turn. If you run Contagion Engine, that ultimate is actually realistically feasible. It also grows Tangle Wire to the point where you lock the entire game out, while you're drawing cards, welding and using your ultimate...
Upkeep, remove counter from Tangle Wire
Draw mana from pool
Tap permanents with Tangle Wire
Activate Contagion Engine, add 2 counters to Tangle Wire
Meanwhile, you can continue to 'cast spells' by welding, even though no player has any usable permanents left.
@Sphere/Stax like build vs. Red "combo" builds
I feel like there should be two different threads on this.
Alex Holland isn't exactly wrong with Spheres as it is a valid strategy. Making sure that the opponent can't do anything is a great way to disrupt your opponent. Unfortunately, a turn one Delver of Secrets can easily undo this.
The problem with the Red builds is it's consistency. I tried fixing this before by playing Top and Faithless Looting. On top of Metalworker, you can weld them back or Forgemaster them in. Worst case scenario, you can easily cast a 6 mana bomb late game. Sounds like a fool proof plan but the inconsistent mana base hurt the deck.
With Daretti doesn't really solve the inconsistent mana base. However, it is way better than Welder that it has "haste" and dodges a lot of removal. Something that Metalworker and Goblin Welder is prevented from being broken. Also with the casting cost, you can run Chalice at one without issues
I am looking forward in the whole red Commander set and what Daretti can do to this archetype.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
@nameless, true- playing spheres isnt always stax-like. It also means that if the tap out you dont have to worry about counters. And a certain BG kill all i love spell is 3 mana so even with one sphere its delayed a turn wich is good. if i play spheres i also play lodestone and metamorph so this can frustrate them quickly while i freewheel to a forgemaster win.
Well if everyone is going ducati (or whats his name) crazy i might add my 2 cents. One remark: it doesnt REALLY have looting build-in, because he actually needs you to discard to draw.
its easy to go overboard with such a card but i think its best as a supplement not as a build around card. First thing i did was think about sac artifacts like obviously wurmcoil (switching one for another ka-ching wurmsss!) but also something like ichor wellspring draw 1, no draw 2 get something back too at the same time??? Wait that sounds cool: (2) draw 2 get something back if daretti is out. Also; maybe even spine of ish sha- i never used it ever because 7 mana is much and other answers are available that i liked more- but playing it then saccing it for something good and getting to replay it from your hand sounds ok.
EDIT: This is what i am now trying- equipment MUD. (got the inspiration from way back when people tried godo with etched champion) Drawing multiple swords in hand normally sucks. But isnt bad when you can trade them for other cards then get them back when needed. 4 Daretti i think maybe right, multiple isnt bad at all! Like sac wurmcoil get 2 wurms, play a new daretti sac artifactland get origingal wurmcoil back. Also tangle wire is really good in combination with post mana base and duratti getting them back at will. Etched champion rides the equipment to victory. Magus of the moon may stay in for now because he was my only way out in a test-game where karn had died and i had to deal with maze of ith .
4 Daretti
3 Etched Champion
4 Godo, Bandit Warlord
3 Magus of the Moon
2 Metalworker
4 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Steel Hellkite
5 Mountain
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
3 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of War and Peace
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
1 Karn Liberated
Last edited by Alex Holland; 10-31-2014 at 10:55 AM.
Sweet, sweet removal! Almost an asymmetric Wildfire
Sweet, sweet removal! Almost an asymmetric Wildfire
omg... the hell with protection!
idk whats going on but WOTC certainly decided that this is red's time to rise to power... or maybe just time for it to start competing.
Sweet, sweet removal! Almost an asymmetric Wildfire
What's amazing about this spell is that its an instant land destruction spell, and its so powerful that even for 5 mana id consider playing it in legacy.
Play 4 Card Blind!
Currently Playing
Legacy: Dark Depths
EDH: 5-Color Hermit Druid
Currently Brewing: [Deck] Sadistic Sacrament / Chalice NO Eldrazi
why cards are so expensive...hoarders
Even after Primeval Titan hits the board, you still have a fighting chance against Turbo Eldrazi with this card. If you can power it out fast enough, you can really blow out the 12 post mana base, and that's a deck where the creature removal isn't even that relevant. This card actually deals 14 damage to 12/12 Kozilek (Not indestructible/no protection) while blowing up Eye of Ugin in the process. Emrakul is the only dude this card can't answer.
Heck, I'm tempted to run Bosejiu :/
totally off topic but it warrants a look at red land destruction since you can combine this with wildfires, and burning of xiane (spelling)
Play 4 Card Blind!
Currently Playing
Legacy: Dark Depths
EDH: 5-Color Hermit Druid
Currently Brewing: [Deck] Sadistic Sacrament / Chalice NO Eldrazi
why cards are so expensive...hoarders
Love to see where this is heading. The only problem i have is finding the right shell. MUD obviously has a much better mana ramp, but lacks the amount of coloured mana. Whereas Dragon Stompy has evolved a solid shell, but has a much lower curve. I have tried the create a list with all the protection and mana from a Dragon Stompy shell and put stuff like Wurmcoil Engine, Wildfire, etc in there. But it never reached the critical 6 mana in time during testing against real decks like Death and taxes. Wildfire obviously was a strong hoser, but double red was too much.
Edit: in this red"ish" MUD/Wildfire list i also played Chandra Ablaze. The times it resolved it was really solid. It worked kind of like an engine. Refeulling hands, and then burn some solid damage. Even the ultimate with Seething Songs and Wildfires in the graveyard was awesome.
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