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Thread: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

  1. #221

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Not sure if this belongs in this thread but has anyone tried a prison build with success? This is my current build.

    Mana (28)
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 Buried Ruin
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Ghost Quarter
    4 Mishra's Factory
    4 Wasteland
    4 Mox Diamond

    Panzer (12)
    2 Batterskull
    2 Karn, Silver Golem
    4 Lodestone Golem
    4 Metalworker

    Locks (14)
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Smokestack
    4 Tangle Wire
    2 Trinisphere

    Others (6)
    4 Crucible of Worlds
    2 Sundial of the Infinite

    I really like this deck, though still needs some fine tuning.
    Smokestack goes really well with Tangle Wire and Sundial of the Infinite. If I have all three pieces on board, it is pretty much game.

    Crucible of Worlds plays a huge role because I can mana lock my opponent, have a sacrifice vessel for Smokestack, or recur my lock pieces with Buried Ruin.

    I decided to go with Batterskull because he is StP proof. If he does get countered or destroyed, I have Buried Ruin to fetch him back. Lifelink is always good with Ancient Tombs in my deck.

    Karn is simply awesome to turn all my locks into beaters. If my opponent kills my germ token, I can turn Batterskull into a beater and before bouncing him back.

    I really like this list right now. Still Tinkering with numbers and adding other cards. Though, maybe this belongs in MUD Stax, if such threads exists.

  2. #222

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by L10 View Post
    Not sure if this belongs in this thread but has anyone tried a prison build with success? This is my current build.
    I've theorized Stax a couple times. It is possible for sure. I think it's very unexplored however.

    I think the Stompy shell with Grim Monolith, Key and Dynamo is required. You want to accelerate into Thorn of Amethyst and Sphere of Resistance imo.

  3. #223

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    I think the Stompy shell with Grim Monolith, Key and Dynamo is required. You want to accelerate into Thorn of Amethyst and Sphere of Resistance imo.
    Yes, there are quite a few locks I wanted to include, such as Thorn and Sphere. I just do not know what to cut out for them. The problem with adding more ramps is that I have to cut locks. I guess I can remove Metalworker, but Metalworker has been insane if I get him out early. The gamble is usually in my favor.

    I do like Voltaic Key though, even with an active Chalice. I can always use Karn on Chalice, cost Key, and play another Chalice.

    The problem is that I want to play 80 cards in a 60 card deck.

    Thanks for the comment. I will be tinkering.

  4. #224
    bruizar
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by vintersorg View Post
    My problem with godo and batterskull is, the chances to get godo countered in turn 2 are huge, and you are using batterskull only because of him right? So, at the point when godo get's countered, batterskull get's the same utility as wurmcoil engine since you will cast only one card and not two, and wurmcoil is way better than batterskull on its own, but you are testing godo and i don't (didn't find it in my local shop) , how many times you made a godo and he get countered? and at some point your opponents will know your deck and will know that godo is an important piece so he will get a counter waiting for him.
    I started playing Godo after playing a singleton Batterskull. Batterskull was really good because of its strength against StP and because the curve was reduced slightly from Wurmcoil's 6. Batterskull is actually a great card because he can attack and defend with lifelink at the same time.

    Against maverick i can see a good match with godo because they don't run blue, but against stoneblade which is a strong deck in the meta and it's very predominant, they have something like 5~10 counters in their decks, that's annoying.
    Esperblade has 3 Force of Wills and 1 Counterspell, so that's pretty good for Godo. You absolutely don't want to have your Godo forced. Spell Snare and Spell Pierce do nothing against Godo. Cavern of Souls is an important card since it both colorfixes and protects against counters. The bigger problem for me thus far was Vendillion Clique.


    About bonfire of the damned, its awesome, i really liked, at some point i thought about fireball haha, pretty basic but with tons of mana to produce... but, when i saw the build, i was taking artifacts to put non artifact cards so its bad for a metalworker/ mana base that isn't entirely red, you suffered with something like this?
    Metalworker only needs 2 artifacts to be good. I don't need to go broken with Metalworker, I just need to be able to cast 1 big bomb a turn. I have actually cut Mox Opal and Great Furnace for this reason. Mox Opal is a stupid card in a deck that can't consistently put out 3 artifacts on turn 1, and great furnace is susceptible to wasteland. Moltensteel Dragon is an artifact by the way :).


    Quote Originally Posted by whiley85 View Post
    I think counters are the reason why he plays caverns. This + chalice + golem has a good chance to push some cards through...
    That is correct. Sideboard I play 6 Red Elemental Blast / Pyroblast, though I'm not sure if that is what it takes to beat a deck like this. The trick with show and tell decks is that they are decks that require the player to sculpt their hand. The best angle to attack imo would be a very explosive hand with lodestone golems, chalice, red elemental blast and a moltensteel dragon to close the gap quickly. I would need to see the Omniscience list and test it to make any real suggestions though.

    I would categorize the different MUD builds as follows right now:
    Meandeck Mud (Kuldotha Forgemaster)
    Mythic Mud (Dynamo/Karn/Steel Hellkite)
    Red Mud (Godo/Moltensteel Dragon/Bonfire)
    Last edited by bruizar; 08-10-2012 at 10:27 AM.

  5. #225
    bruizar
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by L10 View Post
    Not sure if this belongs in this thread but has anyone tried a prison build with success? This is my current build.

    Mana (28)
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 Buried Ruin
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Ghost Quarter
    4 Mishra's Factory
    4 Wasteland
    4 Mox Diamond

    Panzer (12)
    2 Batterskull
    2 Karn, Silver Golem
    4 Lodestone Golem
    4 Metalworker

    Locks (14)
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Smokestack
    4 Tangle Wire
    2 Trinisphere

    Others (6)
    4 Crucible of Worlds
    2 Sundial of the Infinite

    I really like this deck, though still needs some fine tuning.
    Smokestack goes really well with Tangle Wire and Sundial of the Infinite. If I have all three pieces on board, it is pretty much game.

    Crucible of Worlds plays a huge role because I can mana lock my opponent, have a sacrifice vessel for Smokestack, or recur my lock pieces with Buried Ruin.

    I decided to go with Batterskull because he is StP proof. If he does get countered or destroyed, I have Buried Ruin to fetch him back. Lifelink is always good with Ancient Tombs in my deck.

    Karn is simply awesome to turn all my locks into beaters. If my opponent kills my germ token, I can turn Batterskull into a beater and before bouncing him back.

    I really like this list right now. Still Tinkering with numbers and adding other cards. Though, maybe this belongs in MUD Stax, if such threads exists.
    You are underestimating Batterskull I think :) I really like Batterskull with Karn, Silver Golem. Even though it exposes you to StP on Batterskull, you can return it to your hand in response and get rid of the StP. Batterskull is sweet because you can put someone in a Smokestack lock with the germ (sack germ, bounce replay). Sundial of the Infinite is crap, you should cut it because you already have Crucible and Batterskull to lock out opponents. 4 Crucibles is way too much though. 3 at most, but maybe only 2. They suck as redundant top-decks. I'm also not sure if 4 tangle wires is the way to go. I think I would rather have more mana ramp so I have a stronger early game. I would also seriously consider adding red for Goblin Welder and Cavern of Souls / Mountains to support him. I always believed that Goblin Welder is more of a stax card than a MUD card, even though he's a walking lightning rod. Perhaps he's too fragile though, but he's great against a deck with counterspells. Once you go red, you start adding Godo really quickly, especially in a deck where Batterskull is so strong and where getting 3 permanents that you can sack for Smokestack is so good. I don't even know if there is a deck that benefits from not having Godo around to be honest.

    I think the slots going to ghost quarters are wasted. There are much better lands available, even if you do intend to stay colorless.

    As a side note, I have a prison combo list that I am keeping privately for now. It's still not optimal but it takes a very different approach. There are 2 more paths I would like to explore.

    Deck idea 1: secret prison list :)
    Deck idea 2: White Mud/Stax: With Stoneforge Mystic/Stonehewer Giant (not as good as godo because not stp proof) for Batterskull and Thalia/Lodestone Golem as resistors.
    Deck idea 3:Prototype Portal + Spheres+Tangle Wires. Prototype Portal imprinting artifact land or moxen will help you ramp very quickly and gives you a sick late game, whereas, when you start imprinting tangle wires, you lock out the game really quickly. Prototype Portal can also get an insane amount of Voltaic Keys for Grim Monolith and Smokestack, or copy Smokestack to sack to itself, thereby providing the lock. It's also a great virtual card advantage tool, that I wish to explore in greater detail in the future.

  6. #226
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    I'm getting me convinced that welder build is kindda dead nowadays, the grave hate is tremendous , yes sure a sundering titan turn 2 is amazing indeed, but seeing your titan get eated by a scavenging ooze isn't amazing hehe.

    I really love goblin welder and i get awesome moments with him allowing me tons of wurmcoil's tokens and recycling spine of ish sah/ mindslaver..but depending in your grave to win is a horrible condition, i think i will change my focus, but the problem is the draw engine, without faithless looting / color splash, we don't have a good draw engine, any thoughts? and i didn't see anyone talking about it but what do you guys think about Trading Post from m13? could be a good draw engine / life saver

  7. #227
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Bruizar, yeah..i tested batterskull..NOW i know what are you talking about actually, with the aditional combat phase plus batterskull's vigilance ( only a couple minutes ago i saw this sinergy with vigilance, d'uh for me )..it's just too insane :) i'm getting convinced, i'm testing this build:

    2 batterskull
    4 chalice of the void
    2 crucible of worlds
    4 grim monolith
    2 scroll rack <--- better than top imo
    3 thran dynamo
    3 voltaic key

    3 godo, bandit warlord
    4 lodestone golem
    1 magus of the moon
    4 metalworker
    1 moltensteel dragon
    1 phyrexian metamorph
    2 steel hellkite
    2 sundering titan

    2 karn liberated

    4 ancient tomb
    4 cavern of souls
    4 city of traitors
    3 crystal vein
    5 mountain

  8. #228
    bruizar
    Guest

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    I agree that Goblin Welder is looking super lackluster right now. I have been looking at Trading Post myself. My research lead me to this thread:

    http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=44357.0

    Although I haven't tested the card at all yet, I think it could be a great late game card. My fear is that 4 mana for a card that gives A LOT of utility, but generally all minor effects is too expensive but the only way to really know is to test it. Prototype Portal is a card that is far more attractive in my opinion, since it can imprint the following:

    Sensei's Divining Top: Prototype Portal will be (4), 1T: draw a card. The SDT token will go on your deck which means you are actually netting +1 card every time you use the Portal.

    Phyrexian Metamorph: Prototype Portal imprinted wiith Phyrexian Metamorph can copy any creature or artifact you have. Better yet, you can use a token to copy Prototype Portal and remove another artifact from your hand so each top deck you make will become a new Prototype Portal with the card, which should give you infinite threats.

    Voltaic Key: Paying 1 Mana to create a Voltaic Key means that you can use another mana to untap the Prototype Portal. So, for each 2 Mana, you can get a new Voltaic Key. That if you have a Grim Monolith, Metalworker or Dynamo out, this will be insane mana generation for you.

    Lodestone Golem: Making a Lodestone Golem every turn is sweet. Even without Chalice of the Void, Swords to Plowshares, Brainstorm and Jace will never be able to keep up with you.

    Batterskull: Not the best, but it could help you a lot. If you already played Batterskull and top deck a Prototype Portal with an empty hand, you can bounce Batterskull and imprint it, then spam lifelinkers in a stalemate. Not the best, since you don't really want to bounce batterskull tokens, but then again, that's not even necesary if you can just make a new one for 5 instead of bounce replay for 8.

    Metalworker: Why not play metalworker as is? Well, Prototype Portal can be cast without saying what you are going to imprint. If they don't counter it, you can imprint your Metalworker and sneak it into play like this.

    Great Furnace+Darksteel Citadel: Thran Dynamo costs 4 and makes 3 mana. Prototype Portal costs 4 and makes 2 mana the next time you untap. Then the turn after you are on par with Thran Dynamo and after that it starts getting out of hand.

    Tangle Wire: Spamming Tangle Wires is something I really don't think anyone survives. You can tap your tokens, and unlike regular tangle wires, you can play them with ALL your mana untapped, every turn, because you can create the token in your upkeep and stack it with Tangle Wire like a boss. If you have more cards in deck than your opponent, you will simply deck him out :).

    Chalice of the Void: Not only does Prototype Portal circumvent Chalice of the Void the way Cavern of Souls does with Goblin welder, you can make extra Chalices too! If your gamestate is better than your opponents gamestate, you can start making chalice for 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. :) If you don't have chalice for 4, you can play prototype portal to get around your own chalice! (CHalice for 1, topdeck a Sensei's Top).

    Smokestack: Creates tokens to sack for the smokestack lock!

  9. #229
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    bruizar, I really like all the innovation you are bringing to legacy MUD. First Godo and Moltensteel, and now Prototype Portal and Trading Post. I learn a lot reading your post. Thanks.

    Trading Post was discussed a little when it was spoiled, but nobody really did anything with it. Now that you mention it again, I realize how good it is. It's a Goblin Welder that can't be stp'ed, and synergizes with a lot of other artifacts: Voltaic Key, Sensei's Divining Top, Tangle Wire, Smokestack...

    Prototype Portal is insane. I wonder why nobody used it before.

    I think Prototype Portal could fit in the MUD-Stompy deck you posted on the previous page (with godo and batterskull) as an additional card-advantage engine, or in a more stax-like build (with Smokestack and/or Tangle Wire).

    Here is an (untested) attempt at a mix between your stompy shell and a more prison-oriented deck with Tangle Wires:


    4 Sensei's Divining Top
    4 Voltaic Key

    4 Grim Monolith
    4 Thran Dynamo

    4 Goblin Welder
    4 Lodestone Golem
    2 Batterskull
    2 Godo, Bandit Warlord

    4 Prototype Portal
    4 Tangle Wire
    2 Trading Post


    4 Wasteland
    4 Ancient Tomb
    3 City of Traitors
    3 Darksteel Citadel
    4 Great Furnace
    4 Mountain

    // SB
    4 Bonfire of the Damned
    4 Tormod's crypt
    4 Thorn of Amethyst
    3 Cursed Totem



    I removed Chalice, since Sensei's Top and Voltaic Key are awesome in this deck. With Chalice gone, we can add Welder back.

    Voltaic Key:
    - Makes tons of mana with Monolith and Dynamo
    - Untaps Lodestone Golem for the second attack phase of Godo. Resolving Godo with Golem and Key in play means that you attack for 24 next turn (3*2 from Godo, 4*2 from Batterskull, 5*2 from Golem)
    - Untaps Prototype Portal and Trading Post for more shenanigans
    - Can be imprinted on Prototype Portal to create dozens of Keys.
    - Combos with Top to draw multiple cards

    Sensei's Divining Top:
    - Lets us filter our draws
    - Lets us setup Bonfire of the Damned against creature decks (I put it in the SB, but it might be better maindeck)
    - Combos with Voltaic Key, Goblin Welder, and Trading Post to draw cards (tap top, sac it to Trading Post --> draw two cards)

    Goblin Welder:
    - Lets us recur countered threats and Tangle Wires.
    - Lets us swap out tapped Grim Monolith (and swap them back in untapped)
    - Lets us draw cards with Sensei's Top


    Removing Chalice makes the deck more vulnerable to Swords to Plowshares, but Godo and Batterskull are good against stp. Trading Post also lets us sacrifice the sworded creature to draw a card. Since the creature is not removed from the game, it is available for later recursion. We could consider adding back Wurmcoil, since Trading Post and Goblin Welder let us sacrifice the Wurmcoil in response to StP, netting us two tokens and some card advantage...

    That said, Goblin Welder might be "too cute" and too vulnerable to opponent's removal. We could swap it for more Trading Post and/or more lock components (Smokestack, Trinisphere, Sphere of Resistance...).

    Mishra's Factory could also be considered, as an early game blocker, and as a finisher (it can become huge with voltaic keys). Imprint Voltaic Key on Prototype Portal, create dozens of keys, then use them to untap Mishra's Factory 18 times to pump itself before the combat damage step :)



    Here is a mono-brown Stax version:


    3 Sensei's Divining Top
    4 Voltaic Key

    4 Grim Monolith
    4 Thran Dynamo

    4 Lodestone Golem
    2 Batterskull

    4 Prototype Portal
    3 Trading Post

    4 Tangle Wire
    4 Smokestack

    2 Crucible of Worlds

    4 Wasteland
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Darksteel Citadel
    4 Mishra's Factory
    2 Buried Ruin

    // SB
    4 Tormod's crypt
    4 Sphere of Resistance
    3 Cursed Totem
    4 Spine of Ish Sah



    I'd like to add Phyrexian Metamorph and more Sphere Effects, but there is not enough room... Phyrexian Metamorph lets you kill legendary creature. It also enables great starts such as T2 Lodestone, T3 Metamorph. And it's insane with Prototype portal: it lets you copy on creature each turn!



    ---------------------------------------------

    Remark: Prototype Portal can't make Chalice copies with counters:

    "1/1/2011: If the exiled card has {X} in its mana cost (such as Chalice of the Void), that X is considered to be 0. The {X} in Prototype Portal's activation cost takes this into account, though it may be greater than 0 if the exiled card has other mana symbols in its mana cost (such as Riptide Replicator)."
    http://magiccards.info/som/en/195.html

  10. #230
    bruizar
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Thanks SirTylerGalt. I am happy that you appreciate my endless brewing with the archetype :).

    Good point on Chalice with Prototype Portal. It's a shame that doesn't work, otherwise it would lock players out nearly the same way as Tangle Wire does, which would definitely warrant a 4-off inclusion.

    There are 2 more important interactions to note with Prototype Portal.
    1) With Phyrexian Metamorph, you essentially circumvent every counterspell. When you make a Phyrexian Metamorph token targeting Prototype Portal, you may imprint a card on the token. This way, you will never actually cast another spell the entire game except for maybe Godo/Karn/Bonfire of the Damned. On top of that, you don't just cast it once, but every turn.

    2) On Tangle Wire. This is a game-ending portal. The first 4 turns are spent on making 4 Tangle Wire tokens. After you have made 4 Tangle Wires, the board will look like this:

    Tangle Wire on 4
    Tangle Wire on 3
    Tangle Wire on 2
    Tangle Wire on 1

    This means, your opponent has to tap 10 permanents. He is not going to survive this. But what about your own board state? You untap, use the stack like a boss so you only have to tap 6 permanents instead of 10. 4 of these 6 permanents are Tangle Wire Tokens, which means you only have to tap 2 "real permanents". This means, you will have your entire turn available while your opponent is completely locked out of the game. Tangle Wire has great synergy with Lodestone Golem, since tapping 10 permanents is pretty much a guarantee that your opponent's only untappable permanent is his land drop, Lodestone Golem puts the nail in the coffin as even that land can't be used anymore, while Lodestone beats your opponent to death.

    I am not sure what the correct build is for Prototype Portal, but I do know that Metamorph, Tanglewire, artifact land, Key/Top and Lodestone Golem are an integral part of that list. I don't know what the right numbers are either, since I don't have a concrete list just yet, but it is something I am working on and will update in this thread once I find out more.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirTylerGalt View Post
    Trading Post was discussed a little when it was spoiled, but nobody really did anything with it. Now that you mention it again, I realize how good it is. It's a Goblin Welder that can't be stp'ed, and synergizes with a lot of other artifacts: Voltaic Key, Sensei's Divining Top, Tangle Wire, Smokestack...
    Yes, I don't have any actual experience with it yet, but apparently it is working for people in Vintage. It's a super versatile card, but we have to remember that we don't have Mishra's Workshop to power it out. Testing is needed to see if this card is good enough. It's almost a bit like a new version of Druidic Satchel, which is also a very versatile support card, but Druidic Satchel lacks the sheer power to be good enough and this is the same question we should ask concerning trading post.

    Prototype Portal is insane. I wonder why nobody used it before.
    I actually put it on my 'things to buy' list during the spoiler season, but never gotten around to purchasing them. Now I got 4 foils for 4 euro in total :D.

    Removing Chalice makes the deck more vulnerable to Swords to Plowshares, but Godo and Batterskull are good against stp. Trading Post also lets us sacrifice the sworded creature to draw a card. Since the creature is not removed from the game, it is available for later recursion. We could consider adding back Wurmcoil, since Trading Post and Goblin Welder let us sacrifice the Wurmcoil in response to StP, netting us two tokens and some card advantage...
    I don't think I actually agree with cutting Chalice of the Void in your list though. Chalice is so insane against esperblade and RUG. It makes brainstorms, ponders, thoughtseize/iok, STP, and therefore snapcasters useless and messes with delvers and lightning bolts and stifle on godo!, while also being generally awesome against dredge and storm. Chalice for 1 on the play is often a Mindtwist for 3 against brainstorm decks. I do admit that on the draw, I side out Chalice of the Void, especially against Maverick, but I don't feel comfortable not having Chalice around when I'm on the play. Imagine if Mental Misstep was still legal, and the effect would never stop once you played it. That is Chalice of the Void. You can still use your Prototype Portal to sneak through tops and keys anyway, so it's not like you're shooting yourself in the foot. I do realize that the list is tight and something has got to go. Removing Chalice is a ballsy thing to do and it might pay off, but chalice is generally considered the strongest card in the archetype so it would be very unconventional. If you have recursion going through Trading Post, you could say that discard is already weak against you, so it doesn't matter if they cast it on you or if you have a chalice out. That said, Brainstorm can shuffle those dead cards in exchange for business, and you will run into Spell Pierce a lot, also considering the fact that you're not running *that* many creatures right now.

    I'd like to add Phyrexian Metamorph and more Sphere Effects, but there is not enough room... Phyrexian Metamorph lets you kill legendary creature. It also enables great starts such as T2 Lodestone, T3 Metamorph. And it's insane with Prototype portal: it lets you copy on creature each turn!
    I wouldn't run Sphere Effects (Sideboard yes, for combo matchups, but not maindeck). Your best play is Tangle Wire and Prototype Portal is already good with the rest of your entire deck. You don't need Spheres to make prototype portal good, and lodestone golem is already the best sphere there is!

  11. #231
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Wow. Phyrexian Metamorph is indeed insane in this deck. I think we must play four. It can:
    - kill legendary creatures. This includes Gaddock Teeg (which is a big threat against our deck), as well as Griselbrand / Emrakul
    - copy a goyf or some random creature, if you need a blocker
    - copy a Lodestone Golem or another lock piece. You can close a game very fast with Lodestone Golem followed by Phyrexian Metamorph.
    - be imprinted on Prototype Portal, which lets us create additional portals to play other spells, and circumvent every counterspells (as you mentioned). Against aggro, it lets us copy a creature each turn (such as a Delver or a Goyf).


    Regarding Prototype Portal imprinting Tangle Wire, it's even better on the following turn, where you'll have *5* Tangle Wires:

    Tangle Wire on 4
    Tangle Wire on 3
    Tangle Wire on 2
    Tangle Wire on 1
    Tangle Wire on 0

    Due to the way fading works, the Tangle Wire is not sacrificed when you remove the last counter, but on the next upkeep, when you try to remove a counter with no counters on it. Which means you can order the triggers like so:

    - remove fading counters from Tangle Wire on 0
    - tap permanents
    - remove fading counters from Tangle Wires on 1-4

    The triggers resolve in reverse, so you end up tapping the five tangle wires plus another permanent, then sacrificing the Tangle Wire on 0.

    It's even better with Smokestack, since you can order the Smokestack trigger to sacrifice the Tangle Wire on 0.

  12. #232
    bruizar
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Back on the topic of Red Mud, I am currently testing a more heavy basic mountains build (Mountains are so good with Moltensteel Dragon and against Wasteland!).

    I am testing Mouth of Ronom as an extra way to deal with Gaddock Teeg maindeck. This is only possible in a heavy mountain build and I don't advise it if you're only playing 5 mountains. The list I'm currently testing runs:

    8 Sol Land
    13 Snow-Covered Mountain
    1 Mouth of Ronom
    (yes, no wasteland)

    2 sideboard Mouth of Ronom

    I also upped the number of Moltensteel Dragons to 2 and started testing Koth of the Hammer. I'm not sure if the 2 Koth's are good enough yet, but I do have some conclusions. He plays a lot of roles. Especially the -2 is nice, because he's sort of a Thran Dynamo in the deck, with the added utility of being able to beat. The ultimate will just win you games if you pop it. Mountains are colorless sources so Mother of Runes can suck it. The problem is that he costs 4 and Teeg shuts him off. This is where Mouth of Ronom comes into play. That said, it is a planeswalker that doesn't protect himself. (+1 does bring him out of Lightning Bolt range, but he doesn't create a wall for himself). Koth isn't bad, but he also isn't the backbreaking topdeck that Bonfire, Godo or Karn are. My first impression is that Mouth of Ronom could provide some great flexibility to the deck. Barbarian Ring requires Threshold which is just too hard to achieve, and Mouth of Ronom + Koth + Moltensteel Dragon ensure that even though you are using basic mountains, you are still getting utility out of your land drops. This is still pending more extensive testing.



    Quote Originally Posted by SirTylerGalt View Post
    Wow. Phyrexian Metamorph is indeed insane in this deck. I think we must play four. It can:
    - kill legendary creatures. This includes Gaddock Teeg (which is a big threat against our deck), as well as Griselbrand / Emrakul
    - copy a goyf or some random creature, if you need a blocker
    - copy a Lodestone Golem or another lock piece. You can close a game very fast with Lodestone Golem followed by Phyrexian Metamorph.
    - be imprinted on Prototype Portal, which lets us create additional portals to play other spells, and circumvent every counterspells (as you mentioned). Against aggro, it lets us copy a creature each turn (such as a Delver or a Goyf).


    Regarding Prototype Portal imprinting Tangle Wire, it's even better on the following turn, where you'll have *5* Tangle Wires:

    Tangle Wire on 4
    Tangle Wire on 3
    Tangle Wire on 2
    Tangle Wire on 1
    Tangle Wire on 0

    Due to the way fading works, the Tangle Wire is not sacrificed when you remove the last counter, but on the next upkeep, when you try to remove a counter with no counters on it. Which means you can order the triggers like so:

    - remove fading counters from Tangle Wire on 0
    - tap permanents
    - remove fading counters from Tangle Wires on 1-4

    The triggers resolve in reverse, so you end up tapping the five tangle wires plus another permanent, then sacrificing the Tangle Wire on 0.

    It's even better with Smokestack, since you can order the Smokestack trigger to sacrifice the Tangle Wire on 0.
    I think that your sequence is incorrect or I'm not understanding it properly. But you can have 5 tangle wires like you tried to explain (Sorry if I misunderstood it). The way I see it, it works like this:

    Let's say that you have this board:

    Tangle Wire A 4 counters
    Tangle Wire B 3 counters
    Tangle Wire C 2 counters
    Tangle Wire D 1 counters
    Tangle Wire E 0 counters

    You pass the turn, and your opponent has to tap 10 permanents. Your opponent does nothing on his turn and passes the turn back to you.
    You order the stack like this:

    Top of stack
    Tangle Wire remove counter A (from 4 to 3 counters)
    Tangle Wire remove counter B (from 3 to 2 counters)
    Tangle Wire remove counter C (from 2 to 1 counters)
    Tangle Wire remove counter D (from 1 to 0 counters)
    Tangle Wire tap A -> Tap 3 Tangle Wire tokens, including Tangle Wire E
    Tangle Wire tap B -> Tap 2 remaining Tangle Wire Tokens
    Tangle Wire tap C -> Tap 1 Permanent
    Tangle Wire tap D -> Tap 0 Permanants
    Tangle Wire tap E -> Tap 0 permanents
    Tangle Wire remove counter E; sacrifice Tangle Wire token
    Bottom of Stack

    edit: in hindsight, I think this is exactly what you tried to explain :)

  13. #233

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    I just like to say that Prototype Portal has been insane so far. With Tangle Wire imprinted on it, and Karn in play. I can make an army of 3/3s with my opponent completely tapped out.
    1 Karn + 1 Prototype Portal + 4 Tangle Wire = 20 damage = Alpha Stike

    My list is pretty messy right now, but I will post it once I have concrete results.

    As far as Trading Post goes, it seems that White Stax players are starting to use the tech. Trading Post is especially good with Humility, making your 0/1 goat tokens 1/1. But Humility does not fit with the MUD theme.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBSY0f7Yuj0

  14. #234
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Prototype portal is indeed a nice choice , with phyrexian metamorph, really awesome ^^

    I'm liking Godo with batterskull very very much, moltensteel dragon too, don't know how to put prototype portal in this build, i'm kinda old fashioned with a lot of 'weird' changes, even if i thought it's awesome, will be lurking here to see your results with prototype portal, but i ordered 3 godo to my build hehe :)

    but i think prototype portal allow us using smokestack with more safety, smokestack is a good lock against everything

  15. #235
    bruizar
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by L10 View Post
    I just like to say that Prototype Portal has been insane so far. With Tangle Wire imprinted on it, and Karn in play. I can make an army of 3/3s with my opponent completely tapped out.
    1 Karn + 1 Prototype Portal + 4 Tangle Wire = 20 damage = Alpha Stike
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBSY0f7Yuj0
    I'm fairly sure animating the tokens will lead to them going to the graveyard because their CC = 0 and would thus turn into 0/0 creatures. Might have to check on the rules to verify. Karn and Gorilla Shaman are used religiously in vintage to eat moxen, but I think tokens don't have a CC so the same would apply here.


    Quote Originally Posted by vintersorg View Post
    Prototype portal is indeed a nice choice , with phyrexian metamorph, really awesome ^^

    I'm liking Godo with batterskull very very much, moltensteel dragon too, don't know how to put prototype portal in this build, i'm kinda old fashioned with a lot of 'weird' changes, even if i thought it's awesome, will be lurking here to see your results with prototype portal, but i ordered 3 godo to my build hehe :)

    but i think prototype portal allow us using smokestack with more safety, smokestack is a good lock against everything
    I don't have a Prototype Portal build myself. I'm focusing on Red Mud first since I know this build is really brutal. The sheer power of the cards and the lower curve compared to other builds is very strong. Mud shouldn't rely on their ramp so much, even if they have it! If you have ramp, just topdeck a Bonfire and burn them out!

    There is one more thing I would like to mention about Bonfire/Rolling Earthquake.

    I currently play with 3 main Bonfires and 1 Bonfire+1/2 Rolling Earthquakes side. Bonfire is obviously good because it is one sided, but Rolling Earthquake is always as powerful as a miracle Bonfire. The downside of Rolling Earthquake is that you will suffer from burn as well, but there is a solution to this. Should you come in the position where you have a Karn in play and you are both on 12 or something, you can redirect the damage done to you from Rolling Earthquake to Karn, while Rolling Earthquake deals 12 damage to your opponent, sealing the game without a draw. If you have a Karn out, you are probably doing very well anyway, but this could be more relevant when your build plays Koth. Be sure to -2 before you pop the Rolling Earthquake, so it's extra powerful, then redirect to Koth.

  16. #236

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    I'm fairly sure animating the tokens will lead to them going to the graveyard because their CC = 0 and would thus turn into 0/0 creatures. Might have to check on the rules to verify. Karn and Gorilla Shaman are used religiously in vintage to eat moxen, but I think tokens don't have a CC so the same would apply here.
    You may be right. I usually use Karn to kill opposing Moxens, but never thought to kill opposing tokens with Karn before. Sadly, out of the 10 matches I played last night at Cockatrice, no one has pointed that out. I have to rethink my list then. :/

    Edit:
    After doing some research, it does seem that Tangle Wire does keep its 3 CMC, because the token has a copy of it's every characteristic. However, most tokens like Lingering Souls is assumed to have 0 CMC because the CMC was never given. So I am in the clear. :D

  17. #237
    bruizar
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by L10 View Post
    You may be right. I usually use Karn to kill opposing Moxens, but never thought to kill opposing tokens with Karn before. Sadly, out of the 10 matches I played last night at Cockatrice, no one has pointed that out. I have to rethink my list then. :/
    If you have a tangle wire on prototype portal, you are tapping 10 permanents every single turn while your own board stays unaffected. I don't think you need to do anything else except attack with Karn to win. Even a mountain goat would win at that point.

  18. #238
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Hey guys,

    Sorry but I have been on hiatus but here are some of my thoughts going back to page 10.

    Staff of Nin - at 6 mana, you can do other things. Wurmcoil/Batterskull can dominate the aggro/aggro-control matchup. Lodestone Golem can slow the opposition. The pinging is cute and the card draw isn't necessary. I think the Stompy/Colorless versions can be built based on being repetitive, kind of like the recent Merfolk lists that have been showing up.

    Stompy/Mono-Brown vs. Welder/Combo builds - with the current meta (where Storm is minimal and control/aggro-control/hatebears are everywhere, I think Zirath's (or mono-brown) is the way to go. You are not racing combo and Stompy versions do a fine job and maintaining board position against control mid to late game. That Chalice at one is the difference between winning and getting blown out with Swords to Plowshares. That Trinisphere/Tangle Wire can be the card that slowing down Terminus from showing up. That Tangle Wire can be the key to get damage through.


    Sundering Titan on Zirath's/Fropper (similar) list - Their lists do not run Welders or Forgemasters. Sundering Titan looses its value here since the role of Sundering Titan is to set your opponent a couple of turns. Welder/Forgemaster lists are great with this is because they can do it in the early turns. Having Sundering Titan mid-late game doesn't really do the job as well as the early one.

    Bottled Cloister + Ensnaring Bridge - This particular combination probably belongs in a more lockdown list with minimal beaters. Also for card draw reasoning, look up Staff of Nin.

    Banefire and Bonfire of the Damned - Banefire is cute and Bonfire seems like a board breaker. It sweeps the board and deals with planeswalkers at the same time. The miracle setup could be its downfall but I still think it warrants testing.

    Platinum Emperion - Is great in the Stompy-list as they go to late game. With Emperion, you can use your life as a resource freely.

    Goblin Welder and Chalice at one dilemma - Cavern of Souls seems to be the key here though you will be limited to the red spells you play. It is also the key against the opposing permission spells.

    Voltaic Key and Chalice at one dilemma - A lot of Stompy lists run this set up and while its anti synergistic, it seems that one or the other does really well in the deck.


    Moltensteel Dragon - Honestly, I have contemplated on running Slash Panther because it can consistently go down on turn 2 (and the haste is bonus). Moltensteel Dragon is a better version since it can be pumped and dodges most burn spells. This can be considered as a beater along Wurmcoil or even a Wurmcoil replacement (along with Batterskull?)

    Cavern of Souls - see two points above.

    Godo, Bandit Warlord - I am actually not sure about this. It doesn't help Metalworker (although it has been mentioned that Metalworker is reduced). I like life point swing it can create but doesn't Chalice at one solve the Swords to Plowshares issue? And I am unsure how good it is against Terminus. Yes, it will leave you a Batterskull but the 8 mana stint (with the risk of getting countered) good enough?

    Thran Dynamo - Don't be mistaken with this card. This is not an accelerant. Instead it balances the mana of the deck. It helps you cope with City of Traitor's drawback and helps you use the utility of your utility lands. Definitely recommended. If you want acceleration (or if you want a less mana instensive mana rock, I would go for Mox Diamond/Lotus Petal instead.

    Summoning Trap - I have tested this before as a sideboard card. If you're running Trinisphere (even on post-board), its not as good. If you cast this without an open mana, you also risk getting Dazed/Spell Pierced. Cavern of Souls is way better though Cavern doesn't really cheat robots into play.

    Against Omniscience - Trinisphere might help in slowing your opponent down. It's not a guaranteed trump card but it might do the trick. Definitely warrants testing against that matchup. Also, Chalice on one can slow they down as it will shut off their card filtering.

    Magus of the Moon/Blood Moon - While they're great against greedy manabases, they also slow you down as your Sol Lands also become Mountains. I find that they slow you enough that your opponent will have ample time to find an answer to it. They work with Dragon Stompy because that deck has a lower CC curve that this deck. It can afford turning Sol lands into Mountains.

    Stoneforge Mystic/Stonehewer Giant - Stoneforge Mystic can be built around but not with the current Stompy shell. It requires threats that have lower mana curve and emphasis on Sphere effects. The Giant doesn't seem so helpful in the conventional built and Stoneforge-based build.

    Trading Post - I tried running Welder with Rummaging Goblin as an engine (and to get value off of Cavern but it wasn't as effective as Faithless Looting (similar to my build). I have really tested Trading Post but it's versatility warrants further testing. I actually see it along with Welder, not a replacement for it.

    Prototype Portal - spamming the board with lock pieces... Who doesn't want that? The problem is which build are you going to incorporate Portal? It certainly can help get Sensei's Divining Top (and the draw engine thing is sweet) and Key through Chalice at one but what do you remove from the Stompy build? Is it a shoe-in or does it need to be built around it. I'm actually skeptical on this. Maybe in a more Staxques version.
    Last edited by (nameless one); 08-10-2012 at 05:51 PM.
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    [10:22:43]  13NoVa: lol
    sure
    Finglonger points from his Dack Fayden to 13NoVa's Sol Ring.
    [10:23:04]  13NoVa: lol dumb ******; nice draws with retard.dec
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    You have been kicked out of the game.

  19. #239
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Prototype Portal tokens have the same CMC as the copied artifact. I wondered about the same thing yesterday, and found a few explanations:

    http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=337552

    http://tappedout.net/mtg-questions/d...ted-mana-cost/


    The idea is that a token has 0 CMC when the CMC is not explicitely defined. But when the token is a "copy" of a card, its CMC copies the CMC of the card.


    --------------------------------------

    Unrelated: note that Tangle Wire does not stop the opponent from playing instants while the Tangle Wire triggers are on the stack. They could theoretically cast a StP / Krosan Grip / Shattering Spree before tapping their permanents... It's still a good lock, but not unbreakable.

  20. #240
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    It's good to see mud taking a new form, do you guys think it could turn in a competitive deck? like rug/blade..etc? mud is strong but very doesn't have consistency, that's hard to deal sometimes.

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