Did your opponent forget to announce the extra turn trigger?Originally Posted by ZEROorDIE
I think I combined two games there. I believe he s&t straight to emrakul on that one and thus did not get the extra turn trigger. The game he played s&t>omni>emrakul I was dead as dead can be.
Hi all, I've been away since i forgot my password and couldn't reset it so I made this new account.
I've been continuously testing the Nameless Stax list from page 68 against various MU's, mostly Blade Control.
Deck:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Mishra's Factory
3 City of Traitors
3 Vesuva
3 Wasteland
4 Mox Diamond
3 Grim Monolith
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
1 Crucible of Worlds
Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Spellskite
2 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Duplicant
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Wurmcoil Engine
I was switching back and forth between 3/4 Wastelands and 4/3 Mishra's Factory, but that did not really matter due to the Vesuvas.
Findings:
* Wins always came with:
- Lodestone Golem with Sphere protection, 2 Lodestone Golems (copy or not)
- early Phyrexian Revoker beats (with or without Mishra's Factory)
- a single Steel Hellkite (which most of the time, was tutored for)
- early Crucible of Worlds lock
- uncountered creatures with Chalice protection
* Wins never came when:
- mana flooded (happened quite often as there are 25 lands and 7 mana rocks), multiple Mox Diamond draws
- Sundering Titan taking out 6 lands
- Wurmcoil Engine
- Phyrexian Metamorph copying opponent creatures or Batterskull
- a lot of Tangle Wire hands, just uncountered creatures (which met removal)
After my findings, I made some changes to make the deck more aggressive. For now, the changes are:
-2 Phyrexian Metamorph, +2 Steel Hellkite
-1 Mox Diamond, +1 Grim Monolith
-1 Tangle Wire, +1 Wurmcoil Engine
I remember from Nameless One's old post that the deck used to have 3 Steel Hellkites and wanted to try that out.
After the changes, I had a higher win rate pre-board vs Blade Control and DnT (with this deck, I find DnT to be easier MU with MUD combo builds).
The deck is still very dependent on building its manabase using the 11Post package, but is still very manageable.
My next experiements on the list is to develop the sideboard more.
I will also be working on Zirath's decklist from the front page link (MUDstompy no Forgemaster). The deck is very interesting and does not rely on its landbase (having Thran Dynamo). The argument about Cursed Totem being very powerful gets to me.
~ GL to all MUD players ~
Hi,
I just started playing MUD. Can someone give me tips on my decklist? this is what I currently play:
4 Chalice of the void
4 lightning greaves
4 grim monolith
4 trinisphere
1 blightsteel colossus
1 sundering titan
1 steel hellkite
1 platinum emperion
2 wurmcoil engine
4 lodestone golem
4 metalworker
3 phyrexian revoker
4 kuldotha forgemaster
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
3 cavern of souls
2 buried ruins
2 darksteel citadel
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
I haven't yet builded a sideboard.
I look forward to any tips
Good to see people working on Stumpy. A couple things:
1) True-Name Nemesis and Young Pyromancer are super frustrating. Steel Hellkite is a must.
2) Because you play no Posts, you have to lower your curve significantly. This means cards like Sundering Titan are a no-no.
3) In general, MUD has some issues with drawing all mana or all threats so this is the reason Forgemaster has been so successful. Staff of Nin is not a satisfying card for me as an example.
Perhaps randomly posting your list that you may or may not have come up with in the shower and never actually played with isn't the best method of conversation...
And to completely undermine that, here we go:
4 lightning greaves is simply too many. When you run 4 of something, you are saying "I want to see more than one of this card a game". Multiple greaves is bad. This deck already suffers from playing a lot of non-action cards (monolith, metalworker, trinisphere, chalice...etc), and doesn't need to gum up the deck with a bunch more. This combined with the fact that most opponents will hold mana open for their removal when they see greaves on the board and kill your guy in resp to the equipping, is why most people only run 1-2 greaves.
In my mind, if you are playing mono-brown, you should run cloudposts. This deck needs mana, plain and simple. Port is cute, but Ugin, the spirit dragon is better.
3 phyrexian revokers in the main is probably 3 too many. It is a very good sideboard card, though. Besides, you need to make room for those Ugins once you start running cloudposts
Playing a prison orientated deck without trinisphere is silly. Its the 2nd best prison card in the game (1st being chalice), play it.
Same goes for metalworker. You have a deck full of expensive artifact cards. It is free mana. Play it.
That is a very standard list, and looks very solid. The only thing I would say is that coercive portal probably isn't good enough to make the cut, and a 3rd ugin might be better, but it is up to you. Also, I think 2 wurmcoil + 1 batterskull is better than 3 wurmcoils, but again it is a matter of preference.
3 staff of domination is too many. You really only want this card when you have the ability to combo off with metalworker. If you are using it to draw cards, coercive portal/staff of nin/bottled cloister do that better. If you are tapping down a creature, having a bigger creature (wurmcoil, lodestone, ugin..etc) does that better.
There is no reason to play kuldotha if you don't have blightsteel in your deck, but you should have blightsteel in your deck. The only cards that see play that can answer a blightsteel is sword to plowshares and terminus. Without a doubt, I have won more games with blightsteel than any other card in the deck.
The main reason to play red now is for Daretti, scrap savant. Daretti is better than welder and masticore. As far as your list goes, you definitely need cavern of souls to get welder past chalice. You should also find room for trinisphere, since the card is amazing. The combination of these 2 things makes mox opal much worse, so it should be cut. Just to give you some ideas, here is the red list I was running before Ugin came out:
2 Goblin welder
4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha forgemaster
2 Lodestone golem
1 Wurmcoil engine
1 Godo, bandit warlord
1 Batterskull
1 Blightsteel colossus
1 Platinum emperion
1 Sundering titan
1 Myr battlesphere
4 Daretti, scrap savant
1 Staff of domination
4 Chalice of the void
3 Trinisphere
2 Thousand-year elixir
1 Lightning Greaves
3 Grim monolith
4 Ancient tomb
4 City of traitors
4 Cavern of souls
4 Great furnace
4 Wasteland
3 Mountain
Sideboard:
3 Tormods crypt
2 Phryexian revoker
3 Pyroclasm
1 Trinisphere
2 Lodestone Golem
1 Contagion engine
1 Spine of ish sah
1 Duplicant
1 Staff of Nin
I think thousand-year elixir really shines here. It gives you guaranteed activations out of welder/metalworker/kuldotha even if they have removal and the mana to cast it, where greaves would do nothing. If they don't have removal/mana, it gives you double activations (think of kuldotha -> battlesphere -> untap kuldotha -> sac 3 tokens - > something else). Battlesphere is solid with welder/daretti as well. Pyroclasm out of the board helps against elves, death and taxes, and young pyro (whipflare is another option, but doesn't kill the phyrexian revokers from death and taxes).
I would say that this list struggles against tarmogoyf (generally a 5/6 or 6/7), and can't reliably get to 8 mana for Ugin, the spirit dragon. I do think Ugin alone makes a cloudpost list better so.....
Hope that helps
I have a MUD combo decklist. The list I posted plays completely differently from your usual MUD because I wanted it to be that way.
Last edited by darkgh0st; 06-01-2015 at 01:49 PM.
I think you can get away with 3x Steel Helkite instead of having 1x Wurmcoil, 1x Titan, 1x Hellkite. You can gain life off of Post lands but not sure if it's enough.
Also, have you tried Ugin in that list? I haven't been doing anything with MUD so I never got the chance to test with Ugin.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
I tried with just 3 Hellkites. Problem is when you can't use his ability, then you're stuck with a cute 5/5 flyer. Don't know, I'll figure something out.
The life off Posts is usually enough for decks other than burn.
I picked up 2 Ugins during the weekend and put them in the sideboard. I'm thinking of going transformative SB vs control, siding in 2 Ugins and 2 Karns over the Spheres. I haven't tested yet though. (I mainly wanted them to replace All is Dust in Zirath's first list.)
I've upped Ugin to 4 main now. I don't remember losing any game with him landing. I'll be playing MUD in GP Lille next month.
5/5 Flyer is nothing to sneeze at. I have been more impressed by Hellkite then Wurmcoil to be honest. Now i am gonna stick with a 2/2 split between the 2 cards.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
If you are having trouble using Hellkite's sweep active, that's an unusual situation. Usually, you are going to be using it for 1 or 2.
All is Dust left my list rather quickly. It's just not good enough.
Any consideration to running haven of the spirit dragon? It gets back Ugin and the hellkites. I'm putting together a "different" list that I'm going to try out for a while. I've been playing regular 11-post MUD to great success at my LGS for a few months now so I want to try something different. Any thoughts on this:
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
3 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Defense Grid
4 Grim Monolith
1 Staff of Nin
2 Tangle Wire
4 Trinisphere
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Buried Ruin
4 City of Traitors
4 Crystal Vein
3 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
I'm wondering if I should even run metalworker at this point. I don't know that 13 threats is enough either. I expect I'll have some number of ensnaring bridge in the 75 too. With all the lands that could be replayed from my GY (13 + factories if I use them as chump blockers) maybe I should have 3 crucibles too.
Probably just a pile but I'll give it a try once i get all the cards.
Ok, i just had to write something about MUD while i was bored at work.
The conclusion Zirath has drawn is spot on. Having an active Steel Hellkite on the board against those cards is deciding games. It wrecks Pryomancer and simply races TNN. Ugin, the Spirit Dragon is an animal against those cards aswell.
Cloudpost manabase vs Artifact/red enabled manabases. I have noticed that without a Cloudpost manabase it happens a LOT that you are running out of your own curve pretty fast and that your opponent has a fairly easy job to cut you out of mana (or enough mana to keep casting bigger stuff). Currently the Meta is very varied in the way that everybody is just playing everything. Running into BUG Delver or Jund happens. Those decks in particular are a nightmare and you really have to make sure you land an Ugin to close out games. The Cloudpost manabase is typically a turn slower, but it is able to create a boardstate with "different" sources of mana pretty fast. I have also noticed that most of the times your opponent is not able to cut them all off and by the time you reach critical mass and cast Ugin, the have run out of resources to prevent Ugin from happening. Unless they can cast Dig Through Time... Offcourse this sounds like an ideal world, but in fact it is not. Mostly the early turns are a struggle and games are often decided by the one having the longest breath (duh). So i have changed some cards that i feel are in benefit of reaching that point.
A. Wasteland, Sundering Titan, Trinisphere, Lodestone Golem, (Crucible of Worlds). A lot of decks in legacy suffer from a well-timed Wasteland, especially paired with a taxing effect. Still i believe this to be the power of MUD and should be exploited to the maximum. I have made compromise to enable more room in the main list for flexibility, but post-board things should get even better against decks that run non-basics only. Crucible of Worlds is a underappriciated card here that can potentially create a lock.
B. 4x Mishra's Factory vs 0x Cavern of Souls. To my latest findings i found that Cavern of Souls didn't really matter most of the times. Due to fact that so many decks run efficient removal next to their counterpackage. They can't counter Wurmcoil?, Fine they'll just Exile it with Swords. So that openened room for another idea i had based on a list that was posted a while ago. Mishra's Factory. I was truly suprised how often that card in any deck puts so much pressure on the board. It will either attract Wasteland away from Cloudpost (or force them in making bad decisions) or you can keep up putting pressure to planeswalker like Jace or Liliana! Also with Crucible of Worlds in the plan, it will make things even better. The card have the ability to keep Ugin safe from a lot of attackers that do survive it's -x orhave haste and it gives the option to keep +2 Ugin, while keeping other creatures of. Last, when Mishra's Factory is a creature, it can also function as an artifact to sacrifice to Forgemaster for value. 3 City of Traitors. There was a compromise required to include a full playset of Factories which is needed in my oppinion to fully exploit it's potential so City of Traitors got a cut. In my eyes it is the weakest land of all and seeing multiples in the opening is bad. On top of that, the number of other lands cannot go lower in the numbers they currently are.
C. 4x Kuldotha Forgemaster, Platinum Emperion, Sundering Titan, Blighsteel Colossus, Staff of Domination. At one point i wanted to stop playing forgemaster, but then Zirath made this comment and i realised that i am not going to push Forgemaster to combo, but i have to see him as a control mechanism (that can sometimes just random win). So to fully exploit it i included the Sundering Titan which is the best tempo/control hate and Platimnum Emperion which is the best combo/aggro hate. They mix well, and including a second piece in the board can increase a natural drop of either one in the matchup where it pulls most of it's weight. Then there is Blightsteel Colossus and Staff of Domination. Both serve this deck as combo pieces, but can be utilized as control mechanisms. Especially Staff of Domination which is the weirdest card to play, but can pull bunny's out of the hat. One just has to understand how it is deployed.
D. Wurmcoil Engine and Steel Hellkite. Both cards often fighting for the same slots i have now an equal split. While Wurmcoil Engine has always been the most powerful "aggro" creature of the decks it has often let me down. Next to this, Steel Hellkite has been underappriciated by many, i have seen that card win out of weird situations. A lot of times when it connects the game was sealed. Plus a flyer that is out of reach from Bolt and Abrupt Decay and can block the insect human give it so much value. The question you got to ask yourself against every (different) matchup is, which one can race best?
E. Scarecrone. This one is the odd man out. Since it was suggested by Alexholland i have been in love with the card. Especially in matchup's where you include Phyrexian Revoker is is golden. They are cheap to cast, nullify a lot of removal mid/lategame and replace themself (for one mana) if they might get removed. Having 2 can potentially draw lots of cards. Instead of looking to a card like Staff of Nin, i think that a card like this might just be the thing you need to stay ahead of attrition games. Or at least recover from it.
F. Defense Grid. Of all the "lock" or "Taxing" cards, i have found Defense Grid the best against countermagic. Casts for 2 (solland) and is a must answer for blue decks or they risk getting behind. Offcourse this looks as obvious, but that is not always true. While other "lock" mechanics are doing their work (Chalice/3Sphere), this one is the best choice.
G. To answer the is Metalworker still a card to run? Yes! Liek i said earlier, the Cloudpost version of the deck has the ability to generate mana from different angles and most opponents can prevent them all from happening. Just draw-go into enough (Metalworker) mana for Ugin (or something else) has happened a lot of times. Also with Scarecrone you can EoT flip a Metalworker into play, untap, and generate the mana you need.
H. Grim Monolith. While the card is a lategame disaster to draw into, it balances the "slowness" of Cloudpost a bit. Also from Midgame on i try NOT to cast them and hold them for Metalworker mana, unless the situation requires me to have more mana the next turn. Grim Monolith is easily untapped with Cloupost mana. Thran Dynamo is a beautiful card, but potentially making us a turn slower in the early game is not a risk i am willing to take.
The rest is self-explanatory. Sorry for the long post of concoctions.
//Main 61 cards:
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Staff of Domination
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Scarecrone
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Sundering Titan
2 Steel Hellkite
2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Trinisphere
3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
//Sideboard 15 cards:
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Trinisphere
2 Defense Grid
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Sundering Titan
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Karn Liberated
Last edited by Bobmans; 06-02-2015 at 12:20 PM.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
Phyrexian Revoker in DnT. But its not too bad. Most of the time Steel Hellkite is a lock. I found a surprise for DnT (and applies to other decks as well) while playing around, Dismember. It just worked so great after they side out the moms and they think they got you after they Revoke your Hellkite. Then you swing with the Hellkite, Dismember their Revoker and blow up what you want. This fit the posted MUD-Stax decklist well.
Changes from the SB:
-3 Spellskite, +3 Dismember (4 seemed too much)
@Bobmans: I agree with you for a lot of things (not with the Scarecrone and Defense Grid). For the late game Monolith, they become Forgemaster food.
I am testing your posted land base on my combo list, which used to have the Cavern of Souls. Though, Cavern has won me lots of games with uncounterable Steel Hellkite, Wurmcoil, or even 2nd turn Metalworker into explosive plays.
Defense Grid, well i have to say that i must make a difference between the various countermagicbased decks.
Tempo like BUG, RUG, UWR: Defense Grid followed Chalice @ 1
Stoneblade: i'd say even. The danger lies in deathblade running AD. While Chalice @ 1 stops most cards, Defense Grid gains you early game advantage.
Trinisphere is basicly only working if you can stack taxing effects/remove mana sources.
Playing Mishra's Factory in a combo "mindset" might be dissappointing. Not sure tho. Like i said, i am shifting into a more controllish gameplay. Although Factory could help Forgemaster activation.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
Has anybody else used a Wasteland on themselves just to avoid lethal from Price of Progress? Its like a Zuran Orb effect for two lands.
Ya, at the very least you can wasteland targeting itself to save 2 damage. When Playing against Burn Wasteland has always been the second most important land that doesn't just produce mana, glimmerpost obviously being number 1.
Yup I did, more than once.
It never saved me though....
Hadn't thought about heaven of the spirit dragon until now, nice it brings back steel hellkite as well. I'm afraid I don't have any room for it though. My deck is very mana hungry and needs Wasteland to gain time.
I wouldn't remove metalworker from the above list, since you'll run into mana problems then probably. Especially without post-mana. It's a nice list with food for thought, but I feel there is a nonbo in there as well. Tangle Wire turns off Trinisphere...
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