Elves is difficult I'd say but not the worst. A turn 1 chalice usually breaks them. Even if they can get to 4 mana soon there is lots of time to hit a forgemaster or anything else on the board soon enough.Originally Posted by BlackHawkX9
I think worst matchup is Jund, but I think there aren't that many people playing this anymore... good for us!
A few tournaments ago, I faced an elves deck that beat me in like 5 of his turns. Game 1 he won the die roll, dropped a mana dork turn one, I played a land and passed expecting to trinisphere turn 2, he glimpse, combo'd. Game 2, I turn 1 chalice for 1, he cavern, mana dork again, then I landed something, he dropped a reclamation sage on me, then combo'd with glimpse again, turn 3. . I play the elves match alot, with a guy in my play test group, and he wins the match like 75% of the time. The fast pressure and reoccurring reclamation sage is rough. The have so many ways to either draw it, natural order, or green sun for it, plus game 2 gets worse when they bring in reclamation sage 2, and abrupt decays. Its really bad for us. . The only routes that I win, is when I turn 1 trinisphere, turn 2 lodestone, and keep casting anything else from there.Elves is difficult I'd say but not the worst. A turn 1 chalice usually breaks them. Even if they can get to 4 mana soon there is lots of time to hit a forgemaster or anything else on the board soon enough.
I think worst matchup is Jund, but I think there aren't that many people playing this anymore... good for us!
Elves is a MU that just sucks. I recommend contagion engine for such occasions. Can be a complete blowout if it lands, but yeah that deck blows to play against.
I've always found contagion engine to be a very poor choice, unless you are running welder. The pithing needle on heritage druid and revoker on wirewood symbiote seems to work well, and if the go for the hoof kill, just last second forgemaster for platinum whoever. Either way, its a poop match for us.
How would Torpor Orb do in that match up?
I ran 2 torpor orbs in my board for elves for a while. It works amazing against them, because it shuts off all their dudes, and outlets for mana, to make them a bad aggro deck until they hard (1 card a turn) find an abrupt decay. The only reason I no longer run them, is because they only work well in that match, and very few other places, and elves doesn't seem to pop up much in the current meta. They are a ok option against stoneblade for their stoneforge and cliques, sometimes snap caster. But every time I had a torpor orb in, I always wanted something else. . I really want to cram another sundering titan in the 75 somewhere, he destroys all those tri colored tempo decks.
On elves:
My rg daretti list was unable to lose from elves. Its a farcry from mud but i think its important to mention here. The reason that list performs so well is because the density of problematic cards is high. Between contagion engine, chalice of the void, ensnaring bridge, punishing fire and serrated arrows, its hard for them to squeeze a win out. Id like to advocate serrated arrows and contagion engine together if you have room for it. Works very well.
Anything with punishing fire engine will destroy little creature decks. Punishing daretti, sounds like fun. Got a list you could share?
What do you guys think of my list? I'm not a fan of the current Legacy MUD lists so I am thinking of trying out a more vintage shops like version.
Creature (12)
4x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Phyrexian Metamorph
4x Lodestone Golem
Artifact (28)
4x Lotus Petal
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Grim Monolith
4x Sphere of Resistance
4x Thorn of Amethyst
4x Trinisphere
4x Tangle Wire
Land (20)
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory
2x Mutavault
2x Cavern of Souls
Haven't come up with a SB yet.
I would only consider playing something like this if you are REALLY good at winning the die roll. You may want to move Thorns to the board and play Ratchet Bombs or Crucibles though. Bomb answers problems and Crucible allows Wastelock while helping you recover from Wasteland.
Lord of the Chalice
Stompy Discord: https://discord.gg/6cesvkz
I gave MUD another try today, I wasn't expecting much before the start of the tourney.
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Coercive Portal
1 Staff of Domination
1 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
3 Wasteland
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
SB:
1 Wasteland
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Pithing Needle
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Trinisphere
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Trading Post
1 Karn Liberated
Some ideas was lifted from BlackhawkX9`s decklist, having 3 Vesuvas (I normally run 2), 4th Wasteland and Crucible in SB, 2-2 Pithing Needle-Phyrexian Revoker split.
Round 1: Burn
Game 1:
I lost the die roll and am on the play. I mull to 6, getting rid of a 1 land hand.
He plays a Lava Spike, I get a Chalice at 1 from an Ancient Tomb. I'm at 15
He land passed and I Glimmerpost and Trinisphere on my 2nd turn. I'm at 14
He plays nothing, and I play Cavern of Souls and Lodestone on 3rd turn. I'm at 12.
He gets his land and Price of Progress me for 6. I'm at 6. I get another Glimmerpost out to gain 2 (I'm at 8) with 4 non-basic lands to run out a Forgemaster, my rationale being I won't win if I don't play it and lose a turn earlier if he has Price again.
He Price of Progress me for 8 (0-1)
SB: -2 Ugin, -1 Sundering Titan, -1 Coercive Portal
+1 Trinisphere, +2 Thorn of Amethyst, +1 Trading Post
Game 2:
I kept my sort of okay 7.
I play Glimmerpost. He plays a land and Monastery Swiftspear.
I play Glimmerpost again and Chalice for 1. He doesn't have a land.
I play a Wasteland and Trinisphere. He plays a land.
I play a Cavern of Souls and Lodestone Golem. He plays a Barbarian Ring and Flame Rift.
I play a Cloudpost and Waste his Ring hoping to lock him down, swinging in for 5. He doesn't have a land.
I play a Wurmcoil and swing. He has a land but is too late to come back. (1-1)
Game 3:
I mull to 5 after 2 one landers. I had Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, Chalice, Thorn and City of Traitors. Which seemed great...
but not really as I misplayed the order of my cards, playing Thorn of Amethyst 2nd turn, and Chalice on the 3rd. I was dead before my 4th turn as he had a bunch of 1cc bolts, Goblin Guide and Monastery Swiftspear and Fireblast.
I should have Chaliced for 1 even if it was to attract Smash to Smithereens (which he didn't have), played the Thorn and would stop his plays for a bit as he was stuck at 2 lands. (1-2)
Round 2: Merfolks
Game 1:
I lose the die roll and on draw. I knew he was playing Merfolks before the match. My opener had 2 lands being Vesuva and City of Traitors, and mulled to a 3 lander 6.
He plays an Island and passes... (weak start for Merfolks) I Ancient Tomb and Chalice for 1.
He plays another Island and Silvergill Adept revealing Master of the Pearl Trident. I play a Wasteland and try a Trinisphere, which I was surprised to resolve...
He plays a Mutavault and the Master of the Pearl Trident and swings for 3. All I remember from here is getting pounded some more, Wasting his Mutavault, getting a Lodestone Golem, then a Forgemaster to fetch Blightsteel for the win. (1-0)
SB: -2 Lightning Greaves, -1 Coercive Portal, -3 Trinisphere
+2 Ratchet Bomb, +2 Pithing Needle, +1 Wasteland, +1 Crucible of Worlds
Game 2:
I mull to a 3 lander 5, having 1 or no lands in my 7 and 6.
I don't remember much from this match other than seeing Cursecatcher, playing Cloudpost, copying my Cloudpost with a Vesuva, getting my cloudpost enchanted with something that turns it into an Island, resolving a Metalworker, seeing a True-Name Nemesis then Aether Vial, me resolving a Lodestone Golem through a Cavern, seeing another Cursecatcher, me getting a Ratchet Bomb and blowing it for 1 before Vial gets to 3, then a Wurmcoil through a Cavern, then a Sundering Titan through a Cavern, him copying my Titan. Staff of Domination got to resolve, but I had no artifacts in hand. I went to gain some life (worrying being low on life), killing his Sundering Titan with a Spine of Ish Sah (forgetting that all I needed to do was tap the Phantismal Image copyfish) then draw some cards in the succeeding turns to complete requirements to go infinite. (2-0)
Round 3: Reanimator - being the most epic game of the night.
Game 1:
I win the die roll and keep my 7.
I Glimmerpost, he discards Griselbrand.
I Ancient Tomb and Chalice for 1, which resolves and ruins his plan. He plays a land and passes.
I Glimmerpost and Metalworker, which resolved. He plays a land and exhumes his Griselbrand.
I play Cavern of Souls for Wurm and get a Wurmcoil out. I remember resolving a Trinisphere, which gave him a hard time countering my spells (being stuck at 2 lands), and I also got to sneak in a Coercive Portal while he was at 2 lands. Lodestone got countered when he got 3 lands, as well as Staff of Domination.
We lifelink back and forth, while playing spells, I think for at least 5 turns as I get 3 Ancient Tombs out and carefully math out how I'm going to spend my lifeI had 2 Chalices, but didn't want to run them out as he used the draw 7 twice, and just lose some life for an unresolved spell.
I get a Kuldotha Forgemaster through a Cavern, and 2nd one through his maindeck Show and Tell?!?! He ran out a Grave Titan. My first arti-fetch was a Spine of Ish Sah to get rid of his Griselbrand. He gets it back using Exhume, while I respond with Kuldotha and arti-fetch the Blightsteel Colossus (though running really low on life. I remember being down to 3, then up to 5 with some Glimmerpost and -1 hits from Griselbrand and my Wurmcoil), saccing Wurmcoil to fetch for another Wurmcoil. He was chump-blocking with the tokens he built up and eventually his Grave Titan, then Griselbrand to stop the poison from reaching to 10. I eventually drew my 3rd Wurmcoil (I think about 2-3 turns after) and Cavern it in for an overkill. (1-0)
At this point, the Miracles player finish playing his rounds and was mocking us how we were slower than Miracles. Both me and the Reanimator player were thinking hard on each turn from that game. He eventually says he`ll give me the win as he doesn`t want to play another game as it was too draining.
Round 4: Reanimator (different guy)
Game 1:
I`m on the play and mull to 6.
He got the classic 1-2-3 punch from MUD. (Chalice @ 1, Trinisphere, Lodestone Golem) then a Wurmcoil for the win, and him not being able to set up his Reanimation after having Elesh Norn and the 7/11 blue artifact creature in his yard. (1-0)
SB: -2 Ugin, -1 Coercive Portal, -1 Sundering Titan
+2 Ensnaring Bridge, +1 Karn Liberated, +1 Trading Post
Game 2:
I don't remember much from this game other than getting my Chalice Duressed, him being forced to pitch Tidespout Tyrant to counter my Trinisphere, me resolving my Metalworker and Forgemaster. He Thoughtseized my last card in hand, which was Ensnaring Bridge that I didn`t need to play. He also countered a Trading Post that I just drew from a turn. Then he Exhumed a Jin Gitaxis, while the Forgemaster was active. I fetched a Blightsteel and bring back Forgemaster. During my turn, I played a Chalice @ 0 and Grim Monolith to fetch a Spine of Ish Sah for the win. (2-0)
Overall, my expectations not to do good today was crushed and I had a lot of fun playing MUD, having a 3-1 record. I feel like I played MUD wrong the past couple times. It should be played with Metalworker AND Forgemaster. (I`ve been doing one without the other)
Out of the 8 hands I got, I kept my initial 7 twice, mulled to 6 four times, and mulled to 5 two times. Seems pretty good still.
From my past games, I haven`t won a match against Burn, and I haven`t lost a match against Merfolks.
I didn`t get to use Lightning Greaves or Ugin this tourney.
I used Kuldotha Forgemaster, 6 to 7 times? (3 times in one Reanimator game) and most of the fetches with Chalice at 1 or Trinisphere protection (from Stifle). I used to not like him so much being a 3-for-1, but now I believe he is one of those components that fixes our inconsistencies and a place to put our extra artifacts lying around on the battelfield.
I have won a lot of times with Blightsteel Colossus. He is just amazing.
Oh, and that maindeck Spine of Ish Sah had made 2-3 of my games easier or even winnable just because I can fetch for it. I don`t think I`d move it out.
You got some weird matches there. Reanimater is always a weird match, and tidespout tyrant is king there. The 3rd vesuva is kinda a flex spot, as i can't decide if I would like it better as something else. All your matches were kinda weird here. I haven't played any of those matchups since GP new jersey, when we still had the treasure cruise meta. I feel like the way I run mud with this list is better suited to handle a more tempo meta, with bug, rug, blade, blah blah.I gave MUD another try today, I wasn't expecting much before the start of the tourney.
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Coercive Portal
1 Staff of Domination
1 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
3 Wasteland
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
SB:
1 Wasteland
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Pithing Needle
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Trinisphere
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Trading Post
1 Karn Liberated
Some ideas was lifted from BlackhawkX9`s decklist, having 3 Vesuvas (I normally run 2), 4th Wasteland and Crucible in SB, 2-2 Pithing Needle-Phyrexian Revoker split.
Round 1: Burn
Game 1:
I lost the die roll and am on the play. I mull to 6, getting rid of a 1 land hand.
He plays a Lava Spike, I get a Chalice at 1 from an Ancient Tomb. I'm at 15
He land passed and I Glimmerpost and Trinisphere on my 2nd turn. I'm at 14
He plays nothing, and I play Cavern of Souls and Lodestone on 3rd turn. I'm at 12.
He gets his land and Price of Progress me for 6. I'm at 6. I get another Glimmerpost out to gain 2 (I'm at 8) with 4 non-basic lands to run out a Forgemaster, my rationale being I won't win if I don't play it and lose a turn earlier if he has Price again.
He Price of Progress me for 8 (0-1)
SB: -2 Ugin, -1 Sundering Titan, -1 Coercive Portal
+1 Trinisphere, +2 Thorn of Amethyst, +1 Trading Post
Game 2:
I kept my sort of okay 7.
I play Glimmerpost. He plays a land and Monastery Swiftspear.
I play Glimmerpost again and Chalice for 1. He doesn't have a land.
I play a Wasteland and Trinisphere. He plays a land.
I play a Cavern of Souls and Lodestone Golem. He plays a Barbarian Ring and Flame Rift.
I play a Cloudpost and Waste his Ring hoping to lock him down, swinging in for 5. He doesn't have a land.
I play a Wurmcoil and swing. He has a land but is too late to come back. (1-1)
Game 3:
I mull to 5 after 2 one landers. I had Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, Chalice, Thorn and City of Traitors. Which seemed great...
but not really as I misplayed the order of my cards, playing Thorn of Amethyst 2nd turn, and Chalice on the 3rd. I was dead before my 4th turn as he had a bunch of 1cc bolts, Goblin Guide and Monastery Swiftspear and Fireblast.
I should have Chaliced for 1 even if it was to attract Smash to Smithereens (which he didn't have), played the Thorn and would stop his plays for a bit as he was stuck at 2 lands. (1-2)
Round 2: Merfolks
Game 1:
I lose the die roll and on draw. I knew he was playing Merfolks before the match. My opener had 2 lands being Vesuva and City of Traitors, and mulled to a 3 lander 6.
He plays an Island and passes... (weak start for Merfolks) I Ancient Tomb and Chalice for 1.
He plays another Island and Silvergill Adept revealing Master of the Pearl Trident. I play a Wasteland and try a Trinisphere, which I was surprised to resolve...
He plays a Mutavault and the Master of the Pearl Trident and swings for 3. All I remember from here is getting pounded some more, Wasting his Mutavault, getting a Lodestone Golem, then a Forgemaster to fetch Blightsteel for the win. (1-0)
SB: -2 Lightning Greaves, -1 Coercive Portal, -3 Trinisphere
+2 Ratchet Bomb, +2 Pithing Needle, +1 Wasteland, +1 Crucible of Worlds
Game 2:
I mull to a 3 lander 5, having 1 or no lands in my 7 and 6.
I don't remember much from this match other than seeing Cursecatcher, playing Cloudpost, copying my Cloudpost with a Vesuva, getting my cloudpost enchanted with something that turns it into an Island, resolving a Metalworker, seeing a True-Name Nemesis then Aether Vial, me resolving a Lodestone Golem through a Cavern, seeing another Cursecatcher, me getting a Ratchet Bomb and blowing it for 1 before Vial gets to 3, then a Wurmcoil through a Cavern, then a Sundering Titan through a Cavern, him copying my Titan. Staff of Domination got to resolve, but I had no artifacts in hand. I went to gain some life (worrying being low on life), killing his Sundering Titan with a Spine of Ish Sah (forgetting that all I needed to do was tap the Phantismal Image copyfish) then draw some cards in the succeeding turns to complete requirements to go infinite. (2-0)
Round 3: Reanimator - being the most epic game of the night.
Game 1:
I win the die roll and keep my 7.
I Glimmerpost, he discards Griselbrand.
I Ancient Tomb and Chalice for 1, which resolves and ruins his plan. He plays a land and passes.
I Glimmerpost and Metalworker, which resolved. He plays a land and exhumes his Griselbrand.
I play Cavern of Souls for Wurm and get a Wurmcoil out. I remember resolving a Trinisphere, which gave him a hard time countering my spells (being stuck at 2 lands), and I also got to sneak in a Coercive Portal while he was at 2 lands. Lodestone got countered when he got 3 lands, as well as Staff of Domination.
We lifelink back and forth, while playing spells, I think for at least 5 turns as I get 3 Ancient Tombs out and carefully math out how I'm going to spend my life
I get a Kuldotha Forgemaster through a Cavern, and 2nd one through his maindeck Show and Tell?!?! He ran out a Grave Titan. My first arti-fetch was a Spine of Ish Sah to get rid of his Griselbrand. He gets it back using Exhume, while I respond with Kuldotha and arti-fetch the Blightsteel Colossus (though running really low on life. I remember being down to 3, then up to 5 with some Glimmerpost and -1 hits from Griselbrand and my Wurmcoil), saccing Wurmcoil to fetch for another Wurmcoil. He was chump-blocking with the tokens he built up and eventually his Grave Titan, then Griselbrand to stop the poison from reaching to 10. I eventually drew my 3rd Wurmcoil (I think about 2-3 turns after) and Cavern it in for an overkill. (1-0)
At this point, the Miracles player finish playing his rounds and was mocking us how we were slower than Miracles. Both me and the Reanimator player were thinking hard on each turn from that game. He eventually says he`ll give me the win as he doesn`t want to play another game as it was too draining.
Round 4: Reanimator (different guy)
Game 1:
I`m on the play and mull to 6.
He got the classic 1-2-3 punch from MUD. (Chalice @ 1, Trinisphere, Lodestone Golem) then a Wurmcoil for the win, and him not being able to set up his Reanimation after having Elesh Norn and the 7/11 blue artifact creature in his yard. (1-0)
SB: -2 Ugin, -1 Coercive Portal, -1 Sundering Titan
+2 Ensnaring Bridge, +1 Karn Liberated, +1 Trading Post
Game 2:
I don't remember much from this game other than getting my Chalice Duressed, him being forced to pitch Tidespout Tyrant to counter my Trinisphere, me resolving my Metalworker and Forgemaster. He Thoughtseized my last card in hand, which was Ensnaring Bridge that I didn`t need to play. He also countered a Trading Post that I just drew from a turn. Then he Exhumed a Jin Gitaxis, while the Forgemaster was active. I fetched a Blightsteel and bring back Forgemaster. During my turn, I played a Chalice @ 0 and Grim Monolith to fetch a Spine of Ish Sah for the win. (2-0)
Overall, my expectations not to do good today was crushed and I had a lot of fun playing MUD, having a 3-1 record. I feel like I played MUD wrong the past couple times. It should be played with Metalworker AND Forgemaster. (I`ve been doing one without the other)
Out of the 8 hands I got, I kept my initial 7 twice, mulled to 6 four times, and mulled to 5 two times. Seems pretty good still.
From my past games, I haven`t won a match against Burn, and I haven`t lost a match against Merfolks.
I didn`t get to use Lightning Greaves or Ugin this tourney.
I used Kuldotha Forgemaster, 6 to 7 times? (3 times in one Reanimator game) and most of the fetches with Chalice at 1 or Trinisphere protection (from Stifle). I used to not like him so much being a 3-for-1, but now I believe he is one of those components that fixes our inconsistencies and a place to put our extra artifacts lying around on the battelfield.
I have won a lot of times with Blightsteel Colossus. He is just amazing.
Oh, and that maindeck Spine of Ish Sah had made 2-3 of my games easier or even winnable just because I can fetch for it. I don`t think I`d move it out.
How do you like the 2nd greaves main? I can never really justify it. Especially being side by side with the 2 ugin build feels weird.
The people at the shop I went to all have 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th legacy decks, so they switch things around a lot. I think I was the only one who stuck to 1 type of deck. There was DnT, Miracles, Jund, 2x Lands, and ShardlessBUG that I dodged because of that loss to Burn. One of the Lands and ShardlessBUG got the 3-0-1 ID-ing their last match to each other.
I never got to see any of the Greaves and drew 1 Ugin in my 1st Reanimator match, which I couldn't cast due to having 3 tombs and low life. I slapped the 2nd Greaves to try and turn the clock faster and the 2nd Ugin to make room in the SB. Those would have been main deck Revokers I ran a couple tournaments back.
It's not a MUD list, but have a look:
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Daretti, Scrap Savant
2 Life from the Loam
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Punishing Fire
4 Tangle Wire
2 Serrated Arrows
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Contagion Engine
3 Trinisphere
4 Choke
3 Talisman of Impulse
3 Sylvan Library
1 Ensnaring Bridge
@Airwave: I noticed in your SB strategy post in page 138 that you side out Trinispheres against ShardlessBUG. Don't we want 4 in that match-up instead to make the cascade cost 3?
Yes they should stay in, it was mentioned before.
I'll change the post
Sorry, it was indeed, I just read the rest of page 138.Yes they should stay in, it was mentioned before.
I'll change the post
Im fascinated by the origin card flameshadow conjuring.. Seems like value town in theory. Drop a forgemaster? Get a free one with haste for a turn wich u can sac. Drop a metalworker? Get a free one to make mana instantly. Drop a godo bandit warlord? Get 2 batterskull and keep 1 godo! Drop a goblin settler? destroy 2 target lands!!!! throw in some bonfire and blood moon.......
I'd say:
Master Transmuter
Myr Battlesphere
But I'm not sure it's fast enough...
Drop battlesphere... get 4 tokens get a double with haste (that dies eot) with 4 extra tokens... tap 8 tokens attack with a 12/7 haste that upon attacking also deals 12 damage to player... thas kinda ok for 7 mana i guess?
Best thing is it doesnt require hoops, the enchantment is good with most cards in the deck anyway.
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