On the contrary, I think that playing with 12post actually gives you more game vs. Wastelands. If you're only using Tomb and City as your mana-acceleration lands, then a single Wasteland can take out one of these lands and then you have to depend on Metalworker surviving or topdecking another of your remaining 7 sol-lands.
Whereas with 12post + Tomb + Cities, a single Wasteland won't be nearly as devastating to your big-mana plan. Take out a Tomb early? Build your 12post manabase. Take out a Cloudpost? You still have your Tombs and Cities.
I think what makes the 12post version the most powerful (IMHO, and according to tournament results) is that it just overloads the opponent with plentiful mana and must-counter bombs. 12post adds redudancy to the game-plan.
Happy to see that Contagion engine did work, as described in the above report. I think it's a great sideboard card to deal with little idiots.
I run Caverns and Wasteland as a 3 of currently.
What I would love to see, and what would put this deck in a good spot, is if they printed the following in Battle for Zendikar:
Bootleg Mishra's Workshop, Tap, add 2 colorless to your pool. Spend this mana only to cast colorless spells. It fits from a flavor standpoint since the set has Eldrazi, and running 12 sol lands that enter untapped is huge. Maybe it pings you when it comes into play or something, who knows. Its a card I could see being printed, and it wouldn't even break Vintage shops since it just replaces Ancient Tomb.
I run the post lands, and this is the issue:
You become overly reliant on cloudpost, and your tempo becomes terrible. You get a LOT of hands, particularly those containing vesuva+city, city+city, cloudpost + city, hands where you have a t1 chalice 1, or monolith metalworker, but you have to open with city of traitors and your other lands enter tapped, the list just goes on. Especially against RUG delver, where getting an artifact creature dazed or bolted basically doubles their clock, you're damned if you run your stuff into daze and pierce, and you're damned if you don't. Keeping one of the above all-in style hands and getting forced is game ending.
Ive played this deck for the past year, and from January through August cashed every tournament I played with it (7-8), most of which where 150+ people. The deck has a lot of raw power, the deck has game against everything in the field, the deck has great sideboard options, the deck has a ton of stuff that if you are allowed to untap with it the game is probably going to end.... but the deck has a sketchy mana base, the deck does not mulligan well, the deck is significantly worse on the draw, the deck just kills itself sometimes. It's really high variance. I know it can win, because I win with it, so these are not the musings of a frustrated n00b...but I just have to put it down for a little bit for something with more internal consistency.
Rikter, does this mana base look reasonable if I were to use Cloudpost?
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
2 Vesuva
2 City of Traitors
This will hopefully minimize awkward hands due Vesuva and City of Traitors. You are right. The fact that Cloudpost comes in play tapped is very awkward with City of Traitors.
You will be less likely to have some of the more broken openers with less Sol lands, but yes, you will be more stable. Having the Factories will help you get guys on the ground to sort of mitigate. With a full set of Factory and Wasteland I would strongly consider main decking crucible of worlds, recursive factories will clog up the ground, it opens up waste lock, and you can also do shenanigans with wastelanding your own glimmerpost to replay it and gain life.
You trade Cavern of Souls to do this though (or maybe you weren't running it before anyways, but either way there is no space now)
What we need is a land that Adds 2, but you can only spend it on colorless spells, in the new set. That would just straight up replace City, and then we get to have it all.
this is a good manabase if you're expecting tempo/creature heavy meta and not so much blue. Like Rikter said forgoing the cavern of souls means you're less reliant on getting a metalworker to stick and go bonkers, but you become really consistent. crucible maindeck seems like a must here with recurring factories/wastelands being pretty absurd. Basically you can out grind the grindy decks and have a bigger/better endgame.
@Rikter: I think what's more likely to happen with devoid is that they will have a land that adds one mana of any color, use this mana to play colorless spells. We haven't had a good Sol land since the Tempest block, and I have the same hope that we would get one.
it's sad to read that, I was really hoping to see the different approaches you'd give to the deck, as your input so far have been very useful.
My meta didn't bounce back to using wastelands, so for now I'm too comfortable on the post build, but I'm keeping my eyes peeled and gathering the cards for the red and stax builds for rainy days.
I'd like to ask here, how do you beat Jund? They just have a ridiculous amount of removal that gets even worse post-SB (Ancient Grudge). I've only managed to beat Jund in 1 out of my 5 games with 3 Wurmcoil tokens.
I'm by no means done with the deck, fear not! I'm in way to deep with JPN Foils to ever completely abandon it, and besides, it has such powerful interactions that it can't be just written off. I'm going to try switching my sleeves out, not for superstition purposes but because as they get worn they start sticking. Certain cards may be clumping up and not mixing properly; my Vintage list also misfired spectacularly at Eternal Weekend and it uses many of the same cards...I actually deck checked myself to make sure someone hadn't stolen all my moxes, workshops and lotus. The other issue with running the same deck over and over, for me anyways, is that at some point you can wind up going through the motions and wind up less engaged. I'm married to the deck, Miracles is just my version of Ashley Madison hahaha.
If you are in a wasteland light meta then there is no need to abandon the posts. Even in a wasteland meta you don't need to abandon them, but I think you need to tinker a bit. My best finishes came during the last 6-7 months when wasteland was less common at the big events, but I was always brewing in my head what was going to happen when the wastelands inevitably came back. That day I think has come, which for me means cards like Crucible get better for MUD, then you add factory. Hangarback walker is really interesting right now, because of bolt in the RUG and Gryxis lists, so you get value, you can drop him turn 1, and late game he is an insane topdeck that combos well with forgemaster as well as ravager. The debate for me is what to cut for this shell:
Forgemaster + Package frees up about 8 slots, which you can use for crucible, walker, and ravager. You also want Triskelions main, probably in place of wurmcoil. This list would still run post lands, but because your actual curve gets lower (as opposed to your current virtual curve where an 8 drop can reasonably be treated as a 4), and one of those low curve cards grows vertically and horizontally, and you have crucible, you are much more resilient. Ravager + recursive factories is a thing. Metalworker gets worse though, by a lot, because the ramp is less useful, so really pulling forgemaster is worth 13 slots or so to accommodate walker, ravager, crucible, and probably smokestack. You would need smokestacks I think because this list would get blown out hard by null rod and needle and such, and unlike a forgemaster list you wouldn't be able to bail yourself out by just hard casting the forgemaster targets, so smokestack would be needed to chew through crap like that and free up your dudes to activate.
Metalworker + Staff frees up 5 spots, which is enough to put in Walker and Crucible, but the top end stuff becomes worse because you can't just dump it, so much like above, cutting the workers means probably having to cut the forgemaster package.
In any deck running crucible I would want the full playset of wastes. If I was also playing ravager along side him I would run factories. It gets interesting with the cavern and city of traitors count at this point, but I would lean towards cities because your crucible recursion offsets it, it enables more turn 1 plays, and you mitigate caverns uncounterability by adding more threats that you will be casting (we can hardcast forgemaster targets but are way more likely to tutor for them, so I don't consider them cards that eat counterspells)
Theres a lot that can be done here, and there are a bunch of good sized legacy tournaments coming up for me. I will run my list back with new sleeves during one of them and reevaluate, although I am going to cut sundering titan from the 75 entirely. His main deck slot will go to triskelion, which will help vs a whole bunch of stuff. His sideboard slot will become crucible of worlds. I want to make room for one more crucible somewhere as well, and hopefully this helps some.
This is probably more likely, because the one I designed would also ramp out Ugin ridiculously fast and that card is just the truth.
I've always gotten them with stuff like ratchet bomb and the like to kill goyfs. Chalice on 2 is pretty legit as well if they do the whole punishing fire thing. A resolved Ugin should just about always win the game. Wurmcoil is strong as you said, because they rely on Lily. Dismember is also worth considering as a way to kill goyf, as is revoker to fight Lily and DRS, though revoker is super weak to their removal. In my list I would just pull the trinispheres for 3x Dismember and 1x Ratchet bomb.
I recommend sleeving your mana-sources in different color sleeves and shuffling it up, you'll see how many times you have to shuffle to get an approximate randomization. I did this today and I was surprised by how many times I needed to shuffle for a good randomization.
Actually, this is my list: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/15-08...l-metalworker/
Here is my "report" of my experience over the Eternal Weekend: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post900169
The only changes I have made since last week is +1 Darksteel Citadel, +1 Crucible of Worlds, -1 Phyrexian Metamorph, -1 Thran Dynamo (even though I love this card)
I stopped using 12-post three months ago and didn't miss it much. Instead, I opt for using more utility lands. Crucible of Worlds is also very strong. It can even recur Citadel/Factory as Foremaster fodder. I can also Waste my own Cavern of Souls to reset it, but I have only done this literally once before. If I were to go back to 10-post, I think I'd:
-4 Cavern of Souls
-2 Darksteel Citadel
-2 City of Traitors
-2 Voltaic Key
+4 Cloudpost
+4 Glimmerpost
+2 Vesuva
i'm not sure if it's a thing, but here it is:
Last edited by Silverflame; 08-28-2015 at 06:10 PM.
Mindstone on steroids.
@Rikter: Chalice on 2 was very useful until it gets AD'ed. I may have a chance to face Jund again tonight. I'll see what I can do.
Dat New Hedron. It'll look great in an EDH deck.
Guaranteed to play 1 of those in my main deck
It's exactly the card I wanted.. a Thran Dynamo-like thing that drew some cards .
Honestly, at 4CMC, I'd rather just play Coercive Portal (highly under played) or Thran Dynamo. At 4CMC, I expect the card to do its job well, not mediocre between two other cards. Thran Dynamo producing 3 mana makes a huge difference over Hedron Archive, if it is real. I'd definitely make room for it in my EDH deck though, no doubt.
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