It's an interesting thought. I'm personally a little too smitten with Chalice to drop it, but if I were going to:Originally Posted by Rikter
- I'd stick with 3-4 Trinisphere. Our prison capabilities are all we have in some matchups (as you've said, combo), so I think ditching both Chalice and Trinisphere is risky. Likewise, it's possible for us to prey on Delver decks' manabase via Wasteland etc, and if you go that route, Trinisphere is great.
- Maindeck Needle is a cool thought, but I'd personally go with extra Coercive Portals. If your no-Chalice plan is to outclass everyone else's threats, drawing extra mana/threats every turn is probably the way to go. Portal has been a beast for me lately, and I'd much prefer +1 card every turn to the one-time draw from Hedron Archive.
- If you're dropping Chalice, maybe it's time to splash red for Welder.
- Also, consider checking out the Italian Legends Mud build that came out recently. It went heavy on Thran Dynamo, Coercive Portal, etc so it could ramp into Ugin, Karn, Wurmcoil, and Eldrazi.
@Rikter: I partly agree with you on the Delver argument. Though, it can be solved many other ways. Having different sideboard options game 2 and 3 helps, one tactic when you are in the draw, and another when you're playing. I have 4 slots of Pithing needle in my SB as I do make the switch (-4 Chalice, +4 Needle) depending on the match-up (DnT on draw, ShardlessBUG, etc.).
I have learned my lesson before, not having Chalices, so I believe they should stay in, even when they can be a disadvantage 1st game. Chalice can shut down too many cards for it to be dropped. Those are my thoughts.
I'm also feeling that chalice is overappreciated at this point, because even with 4 MD, it doesn't warrant an auto win against combos as we doesn't always have it on play, and its value is dimnished against vial decks.
I was at 4 trini and will go down back to 3, the tempo gain is too useful against most decks and I hardly side out 4 of them.
What I propose is cutting 3 chalices, leaving one for mid game against the needed lock (1 for plowshares against white decks, 2 against lands, etc) we would need to speed up, so I'd put 2-3 voltaic keys for the also powerful turn 1 of sol + monolith + key + lodestone/trini/worker (or just keeping the monolith untapped for a t2 8 mana monster), that is harder to assemble, but is back breaking against more decks than a chalice for 1 is.
that setup would also reduce slightly those awkward games where we burn ourselves to defeat with tomb.
We could also use Copper Gnomes, but I'm trying to move away from more stifle targets.
Trinisphere is going to stay in the main to some extent, the problem I have with it is that it is generally pretty mediocre outside of the first few turns. I am pretty much never happy to see trinisphere in the late game, it's usually a poor top deck. It is in there more as a Forgemaster target than anything else. I think preying on the delver mana base via wasteland is a pointless endeavor. The deck runs fine on 2 mana; my couple of wastelands are really in there for the lands matchup more than anything.
My reason for the needles over portals (portal is still an option, just as a replacement for 1-2x trinisphere, not the 4x chalice) is that the biggest issue I have had with this deck lately is getting blown off of my cloudposts. Wasteland is such a threat, and the cards it prevent me from playing are so good, that I'd rather stop wasteland than cantrips and such. For whatever this is worth, if you are on your game, there is a ton of value in needling fetchlands as well, if you know which ones to call. Ultimately I think I would go with Portal over archive as you suggest because it doesn't need to activate and can't be stifled and it works every turn. Also, it stacks well and is good in all phases of the game.
Ive seen some lists with daretti (sp?) and welder, it's just not my thing, stylistically, and the mana base gets worse. I still want to be using metalworker, which means minimizing non artifact cards. It also makes Forgemaster worse as well, and I just like that card so I'm keeping it haha.
I saw that Euro list, it was interesting to say the least. The decision here comes down to whether you want to be workin' metal or not. I just like metalworker, so a list with that many non artifacts won't work for me.
Ultimately, I think that the combo decks are such a smaller percentage of the field, relative to the delver lists, that I am comfortable making a calculated risk, under the premise that whatever I give up against those decks can be made up in gains against delver lists.
Needle also works on Heritage Druid.
Cockatrice: EMFry
Druid is a mana ability, the needle doesn't hit it.
This weekend I played Brazil's National Legacy tournament with 134 attendees. with dig banned, everyone was expecting a lot of Shardless and reanimators. Since last year's predictions didn't come through, I anticipated people to not play those decks and instead choose the ones that prey over them. The SB mistake I made was using batterskull instead of Torpor Orb, since by having a bye 2 I would avoid burn and other awkward matches.
List:
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Blightsteel Colossus
3 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Metalworker
1 Sundering Titan
4 Trinisphere
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Staff of Domination
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Grim Monolith
1 Crystal Vein
4 Glimmerpost
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Myr Battlesphere
4 Vesuva
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Lightning Greaves
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Spine of Ish Sah
SB: 4 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 Orbs of Warding
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Staff of Nin
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 1 Contagion Engine
I had bye 2 for the event so I try to rest a bit before the tournament.
Match 3 - Death and Taxes
Round 1
I play a glimmerpost and secound turn metalworker, he goes revoker to mw and starts to port me. I beat with metalworker and resolve a lodestone that beats once and later is traded against an avenger. He resolves a batterskull and with 2 ports, keeps tapping my cloudposts so I never get to 8 mana to cast my ugin and emperion.
0-1
+ needles, + staff of nin - trinis
I cast two chalices for 1 and 1 for two, thenb a metalworker, but my hand is empty. I start beating with the worker until he resolves a flickerwisp to remove the chalice for 2. then comes a qasali pridemage, that blows worker, serra avenger and batterskull hard cast.
0-2
Match 4 - Omniscience
Round 1
I keep a nice post hand to ramp for big robots. He cantrips 3 times and S&T omniscience and I trinisphere. He calls the judge to check the interaction and I have another turn, to cast a kuldotha. Next turn, he cunning wishes to remove the trini and I'm done.
0-1
-battlesphere, hellkite, ugins, + thorns,
I start with a t1 trinisphere that gets fowed. He cantrips, and combo soon after.
0-2
I'm at 2-2 already and very disappointed.
Match 5 - BUG Delver
The opponent is a legacy mvp that I faced on the last national tournament.
I keep a hand with tomb, vesuva, glimmer, kuldotha, sundering titan and monolith. Scry down a city.
I go tomb for monolith, he cantrips. I go kuldotha, he casts a drs. Since he plays blue, I don't activate kuldotha yet. Instead I resolve a trinsiphere and ugin, burning my life with tomb until I'm at 6. When he taps out , I kuldotha a sundering titan to destroy his 3 lands.
1-0
- blightsteel, -chalice +ratchet bomb
I keep tomb glimmer glimmer, cavern, batterskull, chalice.
I go tomb chalice, glimmer, cloudpost, batterskull and beat him to death.
2-0
Match 6 - Merfolks
Round 1
I keep a cavern, tomb, metalworker, chalice, staff + other stuff.
I go tomb chalice, He plays cursecatcher with cavern, t2 metalworker with cavern, t3 staff ftw.
1-0
-2 trini, -4 chalice, + 2 ratchet, +contagion, batterskull + orbs + staff.
I mull to 5, he counters my metalworker and keeps getting more lnrds and tnn. I resolve only mana rocks and die.
1-1
+1 chalice, +1 trini, -batterskull, -orbs
I try to ramp for ugin while being beaten by lords. I resolve a trini and trade my lodestone for a lord. He have multiple creatures on the tables. I resolve a hellkite that makes shor order of his creatures and ride it to victory.
4-2
Match 7 - D&T
Round 1
I mull to 6, and get a t2 lodestone, that beats once and is plowshared. He resolves a serra avenger, stonewforge and SoFI and I'm done quickly.
0-1
-4 trini, -sundering + batterskull, +staff, + 3 needle
i go glimmer and he wasted, i go glimmer he revokes worker. I cast a worker and trade with his revoker. Then i cast another worker and go funsies with staff.
-spine + contagion engine
1-1
I mull to 5, keep a tomb, glimmer, lodestone, kuldotha, kuldotha.
I try to ramp, but he have vial and keeps porting me, he gets a revoker on kuldotha and I start bashing him with multiple forgemasters. I cast and ugin that is revoked after clearing the board. He hits Ugin with batterskull and get it down to 1, until I get a wurmcoil online. He starts to throw creatures under the wheels and trade whatever he can, not having enough mana to equip SOFI and recur batterskull in the same turn. I contagion to free ugin once more. I go up to 61 life while he tries to find a cataclysm. Eventually I needle his batterskull and gets ugin to ultimate.
2-1
Match 8 - Elves
Round 1
I keep a fast hand with metalworker t1 and combo with staff before he can. I see a dryad and a quirion ranger, so I know it's elves.
1-0
-sundering titan, - spine, -battlesphere, +contagion, +needle
I keep a tomb, monolith to activate a kuldotha t4, with chalice on t2. Not fast enough. He combos t3.
1-1
I keep a 6 with tomb, chalice, lodestone, glimmer, glimmer, ugin.
Chalice on 1 on my side and he gets null rod. I cast 2 metalworkers and 3 kuldothas and keep swinging. Eventually I draw a contagion engine and get rid his board.
Match 9 - 4 Color Loam
My opponent just wants to make day 2 and proposes to Id since he was playing at my side for the last 3 tables and "I knew that he was playing Lands(he said loam but I hard lands". I didn't, but I wouldn't want to Id since it would make my chances on day 2 worse.
Round 1
I'm on the play, mull to 6 and get the perfect hand. I go T1 tomb + chalice for 0, chalice for 1. T2, city monolith kuldotha, T3 draw a greaves, fetch for blighsteel with chalice for 1 and greaves on the table.
-4 trini, -3 chalice, -1 sundering titan, +thorns, +needles, +tormods
1-0
I keep a 2 lander that is wasted twice, then he gets loam going then liliana. I notice he have a savannah and a plateau, so it's not lands. I scoop.
1-1
-emperion, -thorns + chalice + staff
I go needle to waste go. He fetches, I go lodestone and he casts mirri's guile. I beat once then he find s a plwoshares, then a sylvan library. I get another lodestone. He gets another plowshares, and I get a forgemaster that is eaten by liliana. Then another. Then another. They are needled, so he is beaten by kuldothas without casting anything relevant.
2-1
I end up 7-2 and go to the next day.
Day 2
Since a lot of people that where X-1-2 dropped, many X-3 end up making day 2. I'm 10th on the list. There would be 4 more matches, then the top 8.
Match 10 RUG delver
It's a friend of mine, but I was sleepy and didn't remember what he was playing. He on the other hand, knew.
Round 1
I mull to 5 and find a decent hand with tomb. I try to cast a few things that get dazed, fowed and eventually he casts a goyf and I stick a chalice for 1, then a trinisphere. I forget to trigger the chalice on a mongoose, and counters his tarfire and delver, that grows the goyf. I have a kuldotha, but only 3 artifacts and he have mana untapped for stifle. I have a metalworker in hand but only 2 mana. I'm beaten twice, so before his last turn I try to fetch and get stifled.
0-1
-battlesphere, - spine, -2 metalworker - 3 kuldotha, +2 bomb +2 needle, batterskull, +orbs + thorn
I go tomb chalice for 1. then cavern for golem, monolith, trying to ramp for platinum emperion. draw a hellkite and since I have 7 mana available, I cast it tapping all lands. My opponents asks if I have mana floating, hinting me that he have a daze. I beat twice, cast a metalworker that is countered, but since I only drew 1 glimmer, lots of tombs and vesuva, I'm at 7 life. I draw another glimmer that gets me to 9 life and 8 mana, having ugin and emperion in hand. My opponent is at 9, so I don't cast anything. then he triple bolts me.
0-2
I'm now x-3, i can still make top 8 If i don't lose anymore matches, and top 16 if I win 2 of 3. I just can't get any more weird matches.
Match 11 -Slivers
I have no experience against this deck. My post ramp hand is not fast enought against multiple +1/+1 slivers and my chalice is ignored by caverns. I'm smashed before I can do anything relevant.
0-1
-3 trini, -2 chalice + contagion, + batter, +bombs, +orbs of warding
I i go glimmer tomb metalworker that is fowed, i get orbs on the table that gives me time to take his flying-giver sliver out of the table, opening way for hellkite to wipe the board.
1-1
-chalice +trini
Mull to 5 I keep a tomb heavy hand again to ramp for ugin. He drops a lot of slivers, fows my kuldotha and gets a shroud-giver sliver from his quiver and a pay 2 to bounce, with vial on 2. I ugin, he bounces eveything, put them back with vial, puts multiple +1/+1 on the tables and kills ugin. I die soon after.
1-2
Match 12 - Elves
Round 1
I'm still dazed by the slivers, I mull to 6 for a post hand and forgot the scry. he glimpses T2, NO t3.
-titan. -spine, -battlesphere, -1 wurmcoil + engine + bombs + needle
0-1
I mull to 5 and forget the scry. I get a trinisphere online then a wurmcoil. I have engine in hand, but can't cast and proliferate on the same turn to take his DRs and 2 nettles. luckily I draw a metalworker, so I cast it and a ratchet bomb. I hit him with coil and go to 24. on his turn he casts visionary and NO. we both count damage. it adds to 23. he fetches a reclaimation sage and destroys ratchet bomb. I smile and next turn clear his board. he scoops.
1-1
I mull several times trying to find a hand that does something before turn 3, but they don't come. I mull to 4 to a non lander. coil, kuldotha, monolith, hellkite. I scry down an emperion. I'd need to draw a sol and maybe a chalice to have a chance. I don't and he kills me quickly.
1-2
Match 13 BUG Shardless
I have no more chance to top 16 so the pressure is gone.
Round 1
I keep a tomb hand for a quick trinisphere. I get a kuldotha and my opponent is hymn and cantripping, so when he taps out, I cast some pitch then fetch sundering titan, breaking his only 3 lands.
-3 trini, -2 chalice, - emperion + staff, +thorn, +batterskull
1-0
I keep a hand with metalworker, monolith, greaves, cavern, staff.
I scry and see a tomb. I cast tomb greaves, he wastes. I play cavern and don't see another land ever. he seizes metalworker and goyf me.
1-1
I keep a fast hand with chalice, lodestone, kuldotha, monolith, metalworker. I cast chalice on 1, gain some life, lodestone, trinisphere and swing. On his turn he drops his 3rd land and tries to seize, when I counter with chalice he scoops and show me his hand. He should have cast the goyf, to buy time to play liliana. I'd follow with thorn of amethyst and myr battlesphere next turn, so it wouldn't have mattered.
2-1
Sorry for the lack of details, but I was very tired, specially day 1. there was only one game that crystal vein was worse than city, because I had to blew it for a trinisphere. Since I lost that game, I'm going back to 4 cities.
Play Mono-Blue Belcher and win on their upkeep when they are on play.Before and after the tournament, I jammed some Vintage. I played my Legacy Belcher vs TPS and Shops, respectively. The matchups were close or even slightly in my favor, so I think I'm gonna toss some Moxen etc into Belcher and make it my Vintage deck
Due to peer pressure from fellow Stormtroopers, I will also be playing at Jersey, despite my Magic hibernation. There is a 95% chance of me playing ANT. There is also a 5% chance of me playing Artificer's Intuition or Scourge of Nel Toth Dredge featuring Bladewing's Thrall (Q: How is this better than LED Dredge? A: Dragons.)I am not going to be running MUD this weekend in jersey, I am sticking with a retooled Miracles after a disastrous EE3. But I am planning on picking up MUD again, and I've been breweing.
If any of you all want to meet up, send me a PM.
...Voltaic key...
I like Dismember in Vintage, but not in Legacy MUD. I have tried Clasp multiple times and do not like it. I'd rather play Maze of Ith, Caltrops, Jitte, Trike, or Razormane Masticore. Maze of Ith was an all-star for me at GP Seattle.Another option from the board is to add in removal (either clasp or dismember)
How about a more combo oriented MUD list?Ultimately, the philosophy behind this is to get away from the prison aspects of the deck
List and SB Strat: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...XZLCbF1myoc-A4
GP Seattle report: https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/c...port_turbomud/
We can jam some sessions too. All MUD players welcome.
@Silverflame, great report! You did well!
Dismember I think is a bit better in Vintage because of less lightning bolts; I like it in Legacy too though, particularly against swords lists. Clasp can be hit or miss; I think if you play a lot of infect, death and taxes and goblins you will come to appreciate the power of clasp.
I'd be interested in meeting up with folks at Jersey. I won't have my MUD list with me, I travel with the bear minimum at these things, but I'm happy to put faces to names and talk some robots!
Also, silverflame, that is a great report.
Has anybody tried Uba Mask as a one-of in the sideboard? I'm contemplating playing one as it seems like it could be good vs brainstorm decks, storm and miracles. Dunno if it's worth cutting anything from the board, though. For reference, here's my current sideboard (somewhat based on the local meta):
1x All is Dust
1x Duplicant
2x Revoker
2x Pithing Needle
2x Ratchet bomb
1x Spine of ish sah
1x Surgical Extraction
3x Thorn of amethyst
2x Tormod's crypt
I'd probably cut a thorn for it, as it's more versatile and there's not much infect and storm at my local shop.
Ive tried the uba mask, as a piece of hate for miracles. I cut it because our matchup vs them is good enough. The card itself is fine, but for me a 1 of needs to be something I would grab with forgemaster, and that would never be the case against brainstorm decks in general, and really corner case vs miracles, the deck it is taylor made to beat, so it had to go.
I gonna start testing two cards I think could lead to interesting builds.
mirrorworks & scarecrone
I always think about including a scarecrone in my deck, but I chicken out in the day of the tournaments.
They may work in the same build as in the worst case it's a very slow draw engine (cast crone, clone it, sac the original, ress it back and clone again), but cloning a coercive portal may already be devastating in the long run. Probably a looting shell works better, so I"ll put my Darettis to work after drafting some post versions.
Last edited by Silverflame; 12-01-2015 at 08:56 PM.
Mirrorworks seems like a trap. At 5 mana it does nothing. Its good when it gets going, but to copy most things that are worthwhile, it will be quite expensive. This card also sets you up to be more vulnerable to countermagic because your artifact has to resolve first.I gonna start testing two cards I think could lead to interesting builds.
mirrorworks & scarecrone
I always think about including a scarecrone in my deck, but I chicken out in the day of the tournaments.
They may work in the same build as in the worst case it's a very slow draw engine (cast crone, clone it, sac the original, ress it back and clone again), but cloning a coercive portal may already be devastating in the long run. Probably a looting shell works better, so I"ll put my Darettis to work after drafting some post versions.
Honestly, your sideboard looks alot like mine. The only thing I ask is, why all is dust? Ugin has become strictly better than all is dust will ever be.
Also, what threat do we have now that duplicant is needed on top of spines?
Has anyone else been testing Legend MUD at all?
It might just be the best MUD deck possible in Legacy at the moment. It crushes all the fair matchups better than traditional MUD does, and it doesn't lose too much vs the unfair stuff, and in fact is better against some of the unfair Reanimator/Sneak'n'Show stuff because of 3 Karakas MD.
I have not tested it, but I'm interested. However, I'm also considering just taking a page out of its playbook and trying out 3x Coercive Portal maindeck. Seems like a really strong engine.
I tested for a little while and know that it is strong. Two things that I didn't like about are Vesuva and Karakas, or even double Karakas openers. And the other one being I don't own any Karakas and don't intend to get them anytime soon.
I'm currently working on MUD stompy (Zirath's list 1st page) as it has been on my list quite a while back.
is there a link to a decklist you could give? :D
It was asked earlier in this thread but was ultimately ignored: What do you all think of Sandstone Oracle? I just saw it again and realized that it could be incredible in MUD. I am usually on a fairly empty hand, so I see this as being an easy way to pay 7 mana for 5-7 cards with a body left over. I'm testing it currently as a two of.
For thoughts:
- Sphinx doesn't ride well with the deck's current creature types if you are dependent on Cavern.
- Currently used card drawing engines come in at least a turn earlier in forms of Staff of Nin and Coercive Portal, which just gets better on the long run. One time use Oracle, which nets an unpredictable amount of cards is what you are trading those for. If you run Oracle with Staff or Portal, chances are you don't need Oracle.
- Looks really good the sooner you can empty your hand, while having your opponent at lots still, probably on a Welder and/or Daretti shell. Then again you'd probably want to drop threats instead of drawing cards.
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