I played a 4 round this weekend with the list in the previous post, and went 2-2, not too bad!
Matches were Eldrazi (0-2), 12 Post (2-0), Aggro Loam (1-2) and Team America (2-1).
Since I'm returning to play Magic I still hadn't battled an aggro Eldrazi yet, though I do have studied the deck in my time on these boards. It was very tough dealing with it, even post board (-Ugin -Staff of Nin -Staff of Dominance +Duplicant +Spine +Batterskull) I managed to hit Endbringer with my Duplicant, but I lost on a combat trick with his Jitte'd up TKS with a Dismember sigh.
Vs Aggro Loam I won the first match, but he was super consistent with comboing Dark Depths in both g2 and g3. In G3 I was acutally armed to fight the thread with Ugin and All is Dust in my hand, except in the last turn before me playing Ugin he played GSZ for Gaddock and locked me.
Still fun times! Did a complete lock shut down vs Team America, with full prison of Chalice for one, Trinisphere and Lodestone Golem.
Nice job beating Team America! I've found BUG decks to be our worst matchups, so that's a good start.
I'm not as surprised about Aggroloam. Aggroloam and Lands aren't actually that bad of matchups, but a quick Marit Lage is hard for us to stop. I guess just try to leave up Wasteland when you can, and consider adding a few Pithing Needle to the board. Chalice isn't very useful vs Aggroloam, so you can more easily play Needle to shut off Stage.
The good cards in your sideboard for Eldrazi are Batterskull, Angel, Duplicant, Spine, Crucible, and Revoker. Rather than board out Ugin and the Staffs, I'd board out some number of Chalices and Trinispheres. Chalice has limited applications (putting it on 2 does some work, I guess) and Trinisphere's only good to slow down their ridiculous Eye of Ugin plays.
Generally, I think you're going to beat Eldrazi by either ramping or comboing out quickly. To that end, I would definitely leave your Staff of Domination in; it's relatively hard for them to stop your Metalworker/Staff combo (and besides, Staff is useful in the late-game). Likewise, I would consider going up to 3 Wurmcoils. It's pretty easy to ramp it out, and it destroys most creature-based decks. I've never been a big Hellkite fan, so maybe that could be replaced with a Wurmcoil. Alternatively, you could go down to 3 Forgemasters.
Thanks! Yeah, I was able to get really ahead in the match once BUG let one of the lock pieces in.
As for Aggro Loam, yeah, I think I cut some of the chalices but not all, though I sort of regretted at the time because Aggro Loam is running 3 StP on sideboard now, which absolutely destroys that hard earned Wurmcoil.
As for Eldrazi thats some good advice, I hadn't thought about that angle, we can really aim for the combo in this matchup.
Also, I guess I'm getting a third wurmcoil soon :)
I'm not an expert on MUD, but Eldrazi seems to be a very manageable matchup, specially if you are able to go wide. Wurmcoils are a beating against them, and even though it won't hit anything, a 7/10 Titan is nothing they have an easy time beating.
What do you guys think of Platinum Angel as MD? a friend of mine wants to start going to legacy and he really liked MUD, I have pretty much all the pieces, so when building it and playing some games, Platinum Angel MD seemed like lights out for tons of decks
I bounce around a little between my Emperion and my Angel being main, if you deal with a lot of alt win cons like Jace ultimate, or Infect, then I think Angel is better main, if you're afraid you'll be up against Eldrazi a lot, they often play Dismember, Angel is easily answered and Emperion can be huge there. Personally My Emperion is normally the one in the main deck.Originally Posted by owerbart
Cockatrice: EMFry
Fry has the right idea, the last consideration for me is sideboard. I play dismember in the board and I really like it there, as there are a few matchups where I go a lot lower and don't worry about the top end. Dismember is unplayable with emperion on the board. I used to play both in the 75 and main the emperion, but in the interest of space I decided to cut one, and because of Angels utility against infect and alternate wincons I just run the angel.
Lands is a bad match-up. If they have explore to wasteland, its gg for us. And they can be fast with 20/20.
Aggroloam is better. Grindy and usally don't have 20/20(I think)
I understand the theory of why Lands is bad for us, and I agree that a quick Marit Lage is really tough for us. However, we can play around their Wastelands; unless they have a Punishing Fire in hand, a single Metalworker can run away with the game. I've won a number of Lands games by running out a quick Greaves, then sitting on a Metalworker until I also have a Monolith and sol land that will let me cast, equip, and activate Metalworker. I'm not saying it's a favorable matchup, but if you play it smart and Lands doesn't have the nuts, it's not too bad.
So I just lost to Miracles - the 2nd time in a row after having never lost that match. Quick recap:
- It was the Legends build. Game 1 I got Venser locked.
- Game 2 I got him down to 1 off a pair of quick Lodestones, but then got Terminus'd and Back to Basic'd. Almost lost, but managed to stick a Metalworker, activate it, make Ugin, and win. VERY narrow win.
- Game 3 I kept an opener of City, City, Cavern, Trinisphere, Karn, Staff of Domination, Metalworker. The Metalworker got Plowed, and then he dropped a Jace and Clique to lock me out of the game.
I was talking with a buddy afterwards, and he pointed out that none of the games I lost involved Turn 1 Chalice. While that's definitely a good takeaway, does anyone have tips* for beating Miracles? This match has always been a cakewalk for me, so it's frustrating that I'm now struggling against them.
(*I'm looking for tips other than playing Legends MUD. I'm interested in adjusting the normal MUD build and/or new tactics, not playing a different deck.)
Hi Stuart, I think you may be going too hard on yourself. Of all the variants of Miracles, Legends Miracles has the best fighting chance against us simply because they have more interaction compared to Ponder Miracles. Mentor Miracles can be tough too because it changes the dynamic match-up, where they can play the beatdown forcing us to play the role of control.
From your recap:
1) This is exactly how Legend Miracles can devastate our board. Clique is bad too because it messes up our hand. Can't really do anything about this unless you want to play narrow cards like Torpot Orb. However, after CN2, I think Torpor Orb will gain significant more value because it would shut down some of DnT's key card (Recruiter, Flickerwisp, SFM). Ideally, you can Wasteland the Karakas and go under them before they take control.
2) Shows how vulnerable our mana base is.
3) Getting Metalworker plow'd is unfortunate, but if he didn't play plow, you may as well have stolen the game. You did the right thing by keeping, but sometimes, your opponent has the answer. I think this is why I value Lightning Greaves so much, because passing a turn with Metalworker without protection is miserable.
Turn 1 Chalice is good, sure. But I have won many games without ever casting Chalice. It is a matter of if your opponent has any meaningful interaction. In all of the games above, they did. So you lost. That's how it is sometimes.
I have put down Metalworker for quite a while now since GP Seattle, only playing it like thrice this year with my Welder brew, but I have been itching to play Turbo MUD lately. I am planning to try something like this:
//Lands (21)
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Crystal Vein
//Rocks (11)
4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
3 Mind Stone
//Panzer (16)
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Sundering Titan
1 Steel Hellkite
//Resistors (6)
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere
//Utility (5)
3 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Nin
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
//Blightsteel Colossus (1)
1 Blightsteel Colossus
//Sideboard
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Sundering Titan
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Razormane Masticore
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thorn of Amethyst
Last edited by L10; 08-21-2016 at 09:35 PM.
Cheers L10. I think I just tilted harder than I normally do. Those two losses contradicted one of my fundamental assumptions about MUD, which is that we roll over the two (arguably) best decks: ANT and Miracles. If you remove Miracles from that, the deck becomes somewhat less appealing. That said, you're probably right that I'm being too hard on myself.
The smart thing would be to ask that Miracles player to drill some games with me, and to adjust my board a bit. Torpor Orb is an interesting thought; shutting off Venser, Clique, the new Conspiracy creatures, etc seems solid. I'll try to find room for it in the board; I've been lukewarm on Ratchet Bomb for a while, so maybe it can go there.
I agree on Greaves. I've been playing 2 for a while now and loving it. I steal a lot of wins off of hasty Metalworkers and Forgemasters, and the shroud is super relevant.
Your list looks cool. I'm very partial to Cloudpost, but considering that I was just whining about Back to Basics, something like yours might run better.
I wouldn't worry at all about the losses. A really strong MU would be like 60-40 in our favor, even if you thought it was 80-20 good (I don't believe it is) you're still gonna lose 1 in 5, and it's not unreasonable to have streaks. They have enough good lines to win games off of us, they just can't do it nearly as easily as they can vs. other decks.
Personally I think the legends miracles list is suboptimal, and not a big player, at least in the northeast US. I wouldn't waste time or board slots trying to come up with special tech for it unless you were sure you were going to see it frequently. I have torpor orbs, but I haven't actually used them in the board yet at an event. It's fairly good against elves and eldrazi, but not nearly as versatile as ratchet bomb so it stays on the sidelines for now.
What was your sideboard plan for miracles? I generally take out Trinisphere and monolith and put in 3x Revoker, 2x Ratchet Bomb, 1x Karn Liberated, basically just ways to keep them off of Jace, random hate, and anti-token cards.
New to this deck, I play a variety of other legacy decks but ramp has always brought me joy in my magic career. ( I know this is more than that)
I threw together a list with 12 posts to start but after many goldfishing I don't like vesuva, and I like cavern of souls much better. I was also using 4 thorn of amethyst but see that it taxes everything else we want too much. I feel like one lightning greaves might be enough, opening with one or more sucks, and doesn't seem to help much. I noticed some older lists running platinum angel, is that viable at all? I know worst case scenario it dies to dismember, but I don't see that too much.
Cheers Rikter. You're probably right that I shouldn't otherthink those losses. I might still dick around with Torpor Orb in the board, though; that Legends player will be around my local meta, and Orb also helps with some unpleasant matchups like DnT.
I don't remember how I boarded in that match, but I would agree with you that Trinisphere isn't great. I usually swap them for 2 Coercive Portal and 1 Karn.
Welcome to the deck! It's a lot of fun.
Yep, Vesuva is a pretty gross land sometimes. I'd definitely go for a 2/2 split of Vesuva and Cavern.
I wouldn't recommend Thorn. 4 Lodestone, 4 Chalice, 3 Trinisphere is usually a pretty good lock suite.
The MUD community has mixed feelings on Greaves. I really appreciate it. It enables a lot of our busted wins, and can also bail you out of sticky situations (for instance, if you're locked out by something like B2B or Loam, if you've got a Greaves on the board you can wait until you draw a Sol Land, Monolith, and Metalworker, then go off and break the lock). I've been happy running 2, but 1 is also fine. Thousand-Year Elixir is another interesting card to think about, though I haven't personally played it.
I prefer Platinum Angel in the board, and Platinum Emperion in the main. As you said, it struggles with Dismember. The flying can be super relevant, though it can also just die to an Entreat token, Delver + Bolt, etc. As you generally want to be very conservative with your Platinum creatures, I'd consider opting for the one with the bigger butt. However, if you have a lot of Infect in your meta, you might want to mainboard it.
So I'm looking to buy back into MUD just got a couple questions.
1. Is 4 trinisphere 4 chalice still the way to go?
2. Staff of Domination still a worthwhile card?
3. Hows the Eldrazi matchup, apparently it'l a small majority of my local meta?
This was my old list I ran a year or so ago, it was fun but I sold out of legacy due to financial issues at the time.
Lands (24)
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
4x City of Traitors
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
2x Vesuva
2x Wasteland
Artifacts (17)
4x Grim Monolith
4x Chalice of the Void
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Staff of Domination
1x Staff of Nin
4x Trinisphere
1x Voltaic Key
Creatures (17)
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
1x Blightsteel Colossus
4x Metalworker
1x Myr Battlesphere
1x Platinum Angel
1x Sundering Titan
1x Wurmcoil Engine
Planeswalker (2)
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Sideboard
1x All Is Dust
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Duplicant
1x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Platinum Emperion
1x Ratchet Bomb
2x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Tsabo's Web
1x Witchbane Orb
1x Wurmcoil Engine
Start buying your foils. Metalworker just got a new toy
- 1) 4 Chalice and 3 Trinisphere is pretty standard. I'd put the 4th Trinisphere in the board.
- 2) Staff is great and still played. It snags you free wins off Metalworker, and its draw, tap, and untap functions are all useful even when not comboing off. I'd just play 1, though.
- 3) I've only played it a few times, but it's pretty even. They have a better manabase than us and curve out a little better, but some of our bigger dudes like Wurmcoil are incredibly hard for them to beat. I think it gets better post-board, as you can cut the dead weight like Chalice.
Your list looks good to me! I'd consider dropping the Voltaic Key and Battlesphere for 2 more Wurmcoil. I've been on 3 for a while and am very happy with them. You could try out Thought-Knot Seer, too, though you have to be careful about how many non-artifacts you run.
I personally prefer Coercive Portal > Staff of Nin and Platinum Emperion > Angel, but YMMV.
Yep, card looks fun. I'm only planning to run it as a singleton, though, as it doesn't fix any of the inherent issues with our mana base.
The orrery seems more relevant for the deck than the land, especially for post manabases.
Well, tap metalworker, tutor staff GG is good in my book
Welder MUD might have a reasonable resurgence with the presence of the new red Gearhulk... I believe that card along with the Orrey and Inventor's Fair require reasonable testing!
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