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Thread: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

  1. #101
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    I am currently also testing an unpublished build. The main advice I can give you is to ask yourself how your list takes care of MUD's weaknesses. I believe my list takes care of 2 out of 4 weaknesses that MUD inherently has. Once we solve all weaknesses, the deck should be tier 1.

    So the four weaknesses of the deck:

    Inconsistency - We all know how this deck mulligans and draws when you're behind. My Welder version fixes this by running Faithless Looting and SDT and they have that small interaction with Goblin Welder.

    Weakness to artifact hate - The central theme of the deck is abuse powerful artifacts and artifacts that enable such. My Welder version solves this by having minimal artifact lands and Welders (in junction with FLooting) to pick up the slack Metalworker/Forgemaster/whatever accelerant you have.

    Weakness to exile spells (Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile) - For the cost of one white, your lone beater that you used so much resources is gone and cannot even be recurred. The inconsistency of this deck doesn't help. While my version can't fix this problem, I believe the Chalice/Stompy versions does.

    Sacrificing Tempo for Quality - if your opponent cannot deal with your turn 2 Wurmcoil Engine, you're fine. If he/she can, you're screwed. I believe this is the deck's weakness. Either the Chalice or Welder versions can fix this.

    I'm not saying my posted Welder Version is the way to go, I just find it more consistent compared to what I've tested before.

    The problem I've had with the Chalice build is it's inconsistency and if you can't land a Chalice early on, you are going to fall way behind. At least the Welder builds are comboesque enough to actually race control and aggro before they can have answers because once they answer your threat, it's an uphill battle.

    Would you like to share some of your findings?
    I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
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  2. #102
    bruizar
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    There are 4 matchups this deck needs to be able to win.

    Combo
    Blue control
    Maverick
    RUG Tempo

    Combo
    With 4 Lodestones, 4 Chalice of the Void and 4 Trinisphere, combo is something we are already murdering.

    Blue control
    Blue control is actually pretty easy if you can stick a threat. That's all you want to do in the entire game. Stick 1 threat and beat opponent to a pulp. This means you must answer the some of the best cards in the format: Swords to Plowshares and counters. Wurmcoil is not that good here, because Jace will tie up 18 mana by bouncing it 3 turns. Lodestone Golem is your man in this matchup. It's an affordable clock that delays Jace, giving you time to find and cast another threat. With my list, I am currently winning all my best of 3's against UW and Esperblade.

    RUG Tempo
    This matchup is actually pretty easy, because they don't have Swords to Plowshares. You have to resolve Chalice for 1 or a Wurmcoil Engine to win. Why? Chalice disables Delver, Lightning Bolts, and thus invalidates Snapcaster Mage. That leaves maybe Goyf as the only relevant threat. Wurmcoil's lifelink just races hard. They don't have any threats that beat Wurmcoil. Postboard it becomes difficult due to ancient grudge, in which case Chalice for 2 should save your butt.

    Maverick
    This is by far the hardest matchup there is. Knight of the Reliquary and utility land is just a bitch. I am currently testing Magus of the Moon / Blood Moon. I'm not sure which is better yet. Magus can be resolved through Cavern of Souls against other decks, while Blood Moon can't catch a plow against Maverick. Qasali still beats it though, and with a single forest or Noble Hierarch, they have access to Green Sun's Zenith so its not really a plan I like.. Another thing that is strong against Maverick is flying. I haven't tested Steel Hellkite enough, but I can imagine it's pretty potent against Maverick. I'm currently running Triskelavus as a 1-off Forgemaster target, next to Sundering Titan and Blightsteel Colossus. I'm still sort of testing him but I like him so far. The main reason is because he can do everything. He can kill Jace, give you Goblin Welder fodder, gives you flying, can block Batterskull and avoid the lifelink trigger, kill bridge from belows and kill stupid value creatures such as Noble Hierarch, Dark Confidant, etc. Maverick is just a really tough nut to crack because it is so diverse. Even if you resolve a threat, you still have to beat Maze of Ith. I believe I have the tools to combat this deck but I would like to keep it secret for now. I am not playing All is Dust or Karn, though I am re-testing a singleton Karn for Maverick. I dislike both of these cards because they increase the curve and make problem #1 (inconsistency/mulligans) more of a problem. When you have an inconsistent deck, you occasionally lose against yourself. That should never happen, thus I'm bearish about cards like Karn and All is Dust.

    Quote Originally Posted by (nameless one) View Post
    So the four weaknesses of the deck:

    Inconsistency - We all know how this deck mulligans and draws when you're behind. My Welder version fixes this by running Faithless Looting and SDT and they have that small interaction with Goblin Welder.
    This can partially be solved by lowering the curve of the deck or by running Serum Powder. This is still something that I have troubles with. Lodestone Golem is an auto-include for me because it helps lower the curve while raising the curve for your opponent. This is still the biggest issue I have with the deck.

    Weakness to artifact hate - The central theme of the deck is abuse powerful artifacts and artifacts that enable such. My Welder version solves this by having minimal artifact lands and Welders (in junction with FLooting) to pick up the slack Metalworker/Forgemaster/whatever accelerant you have.
    I have partly alleviated this by splashing non-artifacts and using welder, but the fact remains that Ancient Grudge just beats you. Qasali Pridemage however, doesn't hold a candle against my deck. It is mass removal that I should worry about.


    Weakness to exile spells (Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile) - For the cost of one white, your lone beater that you used so much resources is gone and cannot even be recurred. The inconsistency of this deck doesn't help. While my version can't fix this problem, I believe the Chalice/Stompy versions does.
    I solved this entirely. Decks relying on Swords to Plowshares will not survive against me. Chalice is 1 part of the equation, but there are 2 others.

    Sacrificing Tempo for Quality - if your opponent cannot deal with your turn 2 Wurmcoil Engine, you're fine. If he/she can, you're screwed. I believe this is the deck's weakness. Either the Chalice or Welder versions can fix this.
    Running into counters really, really, really sucks. Paying 6 for Wurmcoil only to have it Dazed or FoW'd is a quick path to the lower parts of the standings. Cavern of Souls is non-discussable for me.


    I'm not saying my posted Welder Version is the way to go, I just find it more consistent compared to what I've tested before.

    The problem I've had with the Chalice build is it's inconsistency and if you can't land a Chalice early on, you are going to fall way behind. At least the Welder builds are comboesque enough to actually race control and aggro before they can have answers because once they answer your threat, it's an uphill battle.

    Would you like to share some of your findings?

    As you can infer from my post, I am playing with Goblin Welder, Chalice and Cavern of Souls, which I think is the dominant framework for the deck right now. I use Goblin Welder more as part part of a general toolkit against counters though. I don't rely on the graveyard by playing cards such as faithless looting. Once counters are gone, your main focus should be beating Swords to Plowshares.

  3. #103
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    If you are planning to play MUD succesfully for several tournaments, the biggest issue you can come up with (hate-wise) is Null Rod. I have played my share of MUD on both sides of the table and Null Rod tends to be game, no matter what you do. You have a chance by being on the play and dropping a first turn Metalworker, but it's a slim chance and you need to have gas for your second turn as well as hoping that your worker lives long enough.

    Another thing is Wasteland, or non-basic hate in general. In my last tournament against MUD I lost the first game horribly to Chalice, but won the next ones mainly due to playing Wasteland.

    MUD has the built-in fault of scooping to an early Null Rod, which is a fine tool against Affinity and Storm as well. It is the go-to hate card if you see two out of three of said decks regularly, which happens to be so here where I live. I tend to think that the inconsistency issues can be addressed by proper building and Welders, but there is so much really effective hate available you must dodge or survive through.

    Cavern of Souls, Welder and Chalice is a premium strategy you should be exploiting. You will have good times making your constructs, goblins and golems uncounterable.
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  4. #104

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopo View Post
    If you are planning to play MUD succesfully for several tournaments, the biggest issue you can come up with (hate-wise) is Null Rod. I have played my share of MUD on both sides of the table and Null Rod tends to be game, no matter what you do. You have a chance by being on the play and dropping a first turn Metalworker, but it's a slim chance and you need to have gas for your second turn as well as hoping that your worker lives long enough.
    Null rod is just another build constraint that pushes builds away from artifact enablers like forgemaster and metalworker. If you are not playing those two cards your manabase won't need the artifact lands that make it a blowout when rod hits play. Lodestone, chalice, trinisphere, wurmcoil, metamorph, tanglewire; they all work under rod, but your manabase needs to be capable of casting them.

  5. #105
    bruizar
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by dillonkbase View Post
    Null rod is just another build constraint that pushes builds away from artifact enablers like forgemaster and metalworker. If you are not playing those two cards your manabase won't need the artifact lands that make it a blowout when rod hits play. Lodestone, chalice, trinisphere, wurmcoil, metamorph, tanglewire; they all work under rod, but your manabase needs to be capable of casting them.
    One of my favorite cards, while I'm currently not playing it, is Razormane Masticore which circumvents null rod like hell, and is good anyway.

  6. #106
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    any 5 mana artifact will most likely never enter play if there's a Null Rod in play. Unless you play a lot of basics, which generally is counterproductive if your plan is to resolve 7 mana bombs.
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  7. #107
    bruizar
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopo View Post
    any 5 mana artifact will most likely never enter play if there's a Null Rod in play. Unless you play a lot of basics, which generally is counterproductive if your plan is to resolve 7 mana bombs.
    I don't think this generalization is correct. I've played many variations of MUD and monobrown prison decks a zillion times. 5 mana is often still a turn 3 play with ancient tomb and city of traitors. The only situation where you might be correct is if you draw a hand with Great Furnaces and even then all is not lost.

    If you are relying on Grim Monolith / Metalworker, you are going to lose to yourself more than a couple of times during the lifespan of your deck. Not trying to hate on your opinion, but this is exactly how you should not build MUD.

    4 and 5 mana are the sweet spots of legacy MUD. Dedicating slots to 6 mana cards needs to be done sparingly, and I'm not entirely sure if there is room for 7 mana cards at all except for Forgemaster tricks.

    Increasing dependence on Grim Monolith and Metalworker is exactly what brings variation to the deck's mulligans. Decreasing dependence on Grim Monolith and Metalworker is what liberates this deck from the curse of losing to itself.

    If you are overly relying on Metalworker and Grim Monolith, you become more and more like an SNT combo deck (requiring hand sculpting/stars to align) but only with less powerful plays. If I need the perfect combinations of threats, ramp and mana, I might as well just play a card that reads: you lose the game, instead of a lifelink/deathtouch craw wurm with summoning sickness. Even worst, you play craw wurms without Brainstorm and Ponder to sculpt your hand!

    I'm fairly confident that cards like Karn Liberated and All is Dust are NOT the right way to build MUD, and will by default lead to suboptimal builds. Hell, even Wurmcoil Engine is on my chopping block (sideboard card perhaps).

  8. #108
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    I don't think this generalization is correct. I've played many variations of MUD and monobrown prison decks a zillion times. 5 mana is often still a turn 3 play with ancient tomb and city of traitors. The only situation where you might be correct is if you draw a hand with Great Furnaces and even then all is not lost.

    If you are relying on Grim Monolith / Metalworker, you are going to lose to yourself more than a couple of times during the lifespan of your deck. Not trying to hate on your opinion, but this is exactly how you should not build MUD.

    4 and 5 mana are the sweet spots of legacy MUD. Dedicating slots to 6 mana cards needs to be done sparingly, and I'm not entirely sure if there is room for 7 mana cards at all except for Forgemaster tricks.

    Increasing dependence on Grim Monolith and Metalworker is exactly what brings variation to the deck's mulligans. Decreasing dependence on Grim Monolith and Metalworker is what liberates this deck from the curse of losing to itself.

    If you are overly relying on Metalworker and Grim Monolith, you become more and more like an SNT combo deck (requiring hand sculpting/stars to align) but only with less powerful plays. If I need the perfect combinations of threats, ramp and mana, I might as well just play a card that reads: you lose the game, instead of a lifelink/deathtouch craw wurm with summoning sickness. Even worst, you play craw wurms without Brainstorm and Ponder to sculpt your hand!

    I'm fairly confident that cards like Karn Liberated and All is Dust are NOT the right way to build MUD, and will by default lead to suboptimal builds. Hell, even Wurmcoil Engine is on my chopping block (sideboard card perhaps).
    Would you mind posting a list? I've been playing the Faithless Looting/Gamble/Welder list, and I was pretty interested in your post. You're correct about Karn and All is Dust, they're way above the curse, and are, very often, dead draws. But Wurmcoil has been all-star for me.
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  9. #109
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    I'm fairly confident that cards like Karn Liberated and All is Dust are NOT the right way to build MUD, and will by default lead to suboptimal builds. Hell, even Wurmcoil Engine is on my chopping block (sideboard card perhaps).
    I completely agree with this. I ended up cutting a Wurmcoil Engine for a Batterskull in my build awhile ago, and while the Batterskull is still in the list, I've cut the rest of the Engines. They're great against black decks and against red decks (if resolved in a timely fashion), but the times that I've looked at them wishing they were another Lodestone Golem far outnumber the times that they've won me a game singlehandedly.

  10. #110

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandalize View Post
    Would you mind posting a list? I've been playing the Faithless Looting/Gamble/Welder list, and I was pretty interested in your post. You're correct about Karn and All is Dust, they're way above the curse, and are, very often, dead draws. But Wurmcoil has been all-star for me.
    I think that one or two six drops are worth while, both hellkite and the wurm are very powerful, but the strength of the deck is really in dropping 4 drops turn 2, lodestone golem, meta morph, and some other beater at 3 or 4 mana would be ideal. I might try su chi soon, its a good beater and ramps with welder into other 4 drops, making it a good replacement for metalworker. A 4/4 is pretty good in a world of delvers and bolts.


    bonus: if it dies in combat and you have a hellkite, it can pay for that too.

    dbl bonus: or untap the monolith you used to cast it.

  11. #111
    bruizar
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    @Vandalize:
    I'm afraid I have to keep my list secret until the next big tournament. I will post it once I get the time to play with it in a couple of tournaments.

    @Undomian:
    You share a similar view as I do. Your post reflects how I think about the deck.

    On the topic of Wurmcoil Engine. It is sweet with Goblin Welder, yes, and it hoses aggro hard if you shut down plowshares. It's even pretty hot if you sack it for Forgemaster. The problem is that it doesn't solve Knight of the Reliquary because it will just grab a maze of ith, stall the game and flood the board with more and more threats because they run more creatures than we do (mostly because of GSZ). When they play flying creatures it gets worse. To be honest, I'm really only interested in beating maverick, because I beat everything else already.

    So what are the options...

    I like Triskelavus as a Forgemaster target. It allows me to pick off Thalia, Mindcensor, that new fight-creature, spider rider, scryb ranger, Moms, Hierarchs, dryad arbor while blocking Knight of the Reliquary and still shooting for 1 every turn. Those 1/1's are pesky because they simply chump your dudes with it while KotR attacks for 8 or more easily, forcing you into a stall which you will ultimately lose against Maverick. In trying to beat Maverick, I could side in a bunch of Duplicants, as they are far better than Wurmcoil Engine in that matchup It is an immediate solution to KotR and better with Goblin Welder. It also totally ignores Maze of Ith. When you duplicant an 6/6 Knight, you can use that body to kill another creature. That means Duplicant will most likely be a 2 for 1. When Duplicant eats a plowshares, he has already done his job and it will still be a 2 for 1. Duplicant makes your deck more resistant to Swords to Plowshares. Wurmcoil Engine provides 2 death touch creatures which is usually also a 2 for 1, unless it eats a Plowshares and you find out you spent 6 mana versus your opponent's 1 mana to deal with it. Don't get me wrong, I like Wurmcoil Engine. He's very beasty, but since he doesn't have shroud or haste he's way too vulnerable, even against aggro decks which he is supposed to hose. Still, you don't want Duplicant to be your only threat when Maverick is beating you with a noble hierarch and a thalia. 6 mana for a 2/1 is just.. bad. Don't forget that hierarch+thalia kill Lodestone Golem.

    Back on the topic of Forgemastery, Blightsteel Colossus too, just gets untapped against a good Maverick player.

    Triskelavus, like many artifacts, is nice with Welder too. I could also go for Spine of Ish-Sah, but that card doesn't guarantee a win against Maverick, and is a 7 mana 1 for 1. With Forgemaster it's a 3 for 1... Only when you have access to Goblin Welder does that card become decent. So no Spine for me.

    The problem I have with Phyrexian Metamorph is that he sucks against Knight of the Reliquary, which is one of the bigger problems for this deck. Though he's awesome if you land a Lodestone Golem. If everyone would be playing Tarmogoyf I would be the first person to run Phyrexian Metamorphs, but unfortunately, goyf is out of favor for most decks except for RUG, which I already beat. Another argument for Metamorph is that he hoses combo and control even harder when you land a Lodestone Golem. It gets out of hand quickly with so many sphere effects. One last important factor for Wurmcoil Engine. The Lifelink is very relevant to this deck. Ancient Tombs costs life and without Wurmcoil Engine, you are paying dearly for that mana.

    I can't name a single creature that gives me as much trouble as Knight. Revoker doesn't help because fetch-lands still work. I wish there was something like Scavenging Ooze or Withered Wretch for artifacts. That would help the Maverick matchup really well.

    Sorry for the scattered thoughts, this was more of a brainstorm than anything else. How do you guys fare against Maverick and what tools do you use to combat it?


    2 Side topics:
    Solem Simulacrum:
    Even though he's frail as fuck, Solemn Simulacrum is one of the few value artifact creatures at 4 or less mana at our disposal. The ramp actually lifts some of the burden from Metalworker and Grim Monolith. 4 Mana is doable, when you play Solemn you ramp to 5 mana, which means you only need to drop 1 more land to curve out. It's pretty good with Forgemaster (Cast Solemn for 4 and curve into Forgemaster, then sack the Solemn to the Forgemaster for value) and obviously also very good with Goblin Welder. The biggest problem is the weak 2/2 it comes with. MUD needs to have a decent clock and playing on the defensive is a losing game for MUD. As of now, I wouldn't run him.

    Rumored U/B cantrip death touch flyer:
    UB, 1/1 flying death touch, when it comes into play draw a card. The colors are aweful for me, but this sounds similar to Solemn Simulacrum. Immediate value, super versatile and good with Goblin Welder. Wouldn't run this either due to color requirements. Perhaps some build that support Tezzeret Agent of Bolas could use this, but as of now I won't touch it.

  12. #112
    bruizar
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    From http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/n...reply&p=643708


    Quote Originally Posted by JamieW89 View Post
    The top-8 perfectly shows the four pillars of the European metagame imo. The combo pillar mainly consists of Show and Tell and Storm variants anyways. The 5th pillar, nonexistant in this top-8, would be metagamed midrange/control decks such as Nic Fit and Loam.

    2x RUG Tempo
    2x UW(x) Blade
    2x Combo (Storm and Show&Tell variants)
    2x GW(x) Creature Decks (Maverick & Zoo)

    Those are exactly the decks I'm testing against. Right now I win 3 out of 4 of these matchups with MUD. Seriously, we need something against Maverick.

  13. #113

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    I have been doing fine against maverick, 4 cursed totems, 2 crucible of world, 4 wasteland, and 4 chalice, and 4 tanglewire, has been enough hate.

    The totems are better in builds that do not play forgemasters, workers, or welders...but they do solve knight, and they shutdown all the little engines that makes mavericks creatures anything better than grizzly bears.

  14. #114
    bruizar
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Even though at first I thought that 4 Cursed Totem is overkill, that may be the right call for my sideboard. Particularly because it disables Qasali Pridemage. I'll test that out.

  15. #115
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Hello I'm back!

    I read through the replies and here's what I can tell:

    I have started crafting a list with Chalice and Goblin Welder (with Cavern of Souls) and here's how it's going:

    It's not running Faithless Looting and SDT. I'm more concentrated now on doing midrange lockdown rather than going comboesque.

    Without Faithless Looting, I have decided to run less Welder. Right now I am running 3 since its only good mid to late game.

    I have reduced the number of Petals but I am still undecided with that since I still want to use Reforge the Soul (and Scroll Rack).

    My numbers are still uncertain and hopefully I get a relegation before an upcoming Mox Pearl tournament around here (in two weeks)

    As for Maverick, I find that abusing Tangle Wire against them helps. I have won uphill battles with it (though with the help of Metamorph copying them).
    I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
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    [10:23:04]  13NoVa: lol dumb ******; nice draws with retard.dec
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  16. #116

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    I went 3-1 at my LGS tonight, Beat RUG, Zoo/Maverick hybrid, Lost to UW miracle/planeswalker control, and beat Bant aggro.

    The list I played seemed good, the mana was pretty smooth and I normally had something to do turn one.


    4 Phyrexian Metamorph
    2 taurean mauler
    4 su-chi
    1 Karn, Silver Golem
    3 goblin welder
    4 chalice of the void
    4 tangle wire
    4 lodestone golem
    2 wurmcoil engine
    2 reforge the soul
    4 Grim Monolith
    2 crucible of worlds
    3 mox diamond
    4 ancient tomb
    4 city of traitors
    4 wasteland
    4 cavern of souls
    3 mountain
    1 great furnace
    1 crystal vein

    SB
    4 leyline of the void
    1 helm of obedience
    4 cursed totem
    4 thorn of amethyst
    2 duplicant

    Props: Su-chi not dying to lightning bolt, and untapping monoliths.

    Slops- reforge the soul flipping an entreat the angels for my opponent.

    But seriously, mauler was cute with cavern, but any changeling could be as good. The mana curve was spot on.

  17. #117
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Thoughts against maverick:

    Attacking their mana base requires a huge effort. Was their lands typically doesn't do a whole lot, and is pretty much off the table with KotR active for any dual lands. As for artifact options Sundering Titan is a huge overwhelming one. Getting the old 1-2 punch out of him isn't awful, as you still get both activations off of a Exile effect. Goblin Welder is super cute to this effect as it can protect titan well, get more out of its effect, and draw some fire off your beatstick for itself. Other recursion options like Buried Ruins are ok in their own right.

    Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon are simply devastating. If you are going for Red as an option, and I am personally shifting my view to prefer it as well right now, these guys are a go to. I don't like to pussyfoot around with hate, and Sundering Titan and Moon effects, while not super synergystic, certainly hate harder than most other options available. Moon is alright because it's an enchantment and harder to remove in most instances. Magus gets in for beats, can be forced down with cavern, and to me also adds to incentive to add some equipment in the deck (I have been toying with batterskull for a long time and would not cut it from my list, as well as some of the swords) to make it and other low curve creatures more relevant.

    Some of their creature options are downright terrifying. Adding Phyrexian Revoker into the mix can cause a number of issues for their board presence, and chalice cutting down some of their cheaper creature and spell options helps maintain a stranglehold. Tanglewire isn't that bad here, it hasn't struck me as downright amazing. It at worst can buy you a few draws, but Maverick has so many permanents that they are going to be able to outland drop you more often than not, so you really need to have a relevant way of using the virtual turns tanglewire buys you more so than ever in this match up.

    This brings me back to my point in equipment: I think they are super good in the deck. Outside of forgemaster we don't have any awesome ways to really tutor for them, but sometimes they are worth tutuoring for. They make you go toe-to-toe with most of the creatures and really land in hard beats. Batterskull is frightening on its own, and strapped to literally anything in the deck makes them something that requires an answer in many instances. Many of the colors swords are viable too as they offer some useful options, and namely help add beef and dodge some removal (I wish there was a White/Green sword).

    Phyrexian Metamorph is strong for the reasons that it instantly lets you match anything they have, as well as remove any legendary threat they have landed.
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  18. #118
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    I haven't read a lot of the previous posts, but I wanted to bring this up:

    My main concerns are the following:

    1) Wastelands - How good are Wastelands in this deck. They will always be mana-producers first, disruption second (unlike Canadian variants). Its not like we can tutor for it (like Maverick) if we need to get rid of a problem land. How important are these in the deck. While the threat of Maze of Ith exists, another land has come to my attention to solve other things this deck faces: Cavern of Souls.

    While a single Swords to Plowshares can ruin anyone's day, theres nothing devastating that having your threat FoWed after spending tons of resource for it (from using Monoliths to having your City of Traitors blown up).

    The main dilemma is is it worth cutting Wastelands for Cavern of Souls in the deck that is tight in land-base that doesn't really have a reliable way to fetch its lands?

    Doesn't Lodestone Golem do its job or is it good because the deck also runs Wasteland?

    2) Chalice of the Void - In tandem with Cavern of Souls, you can actually run Goblin Welder alongside CotV. Its great and everything but from my previous build, what makes Welder so good was because I can run it alongside Faithless Looting. I also ran Sensei's Divining Top since Looting improved the quality of SDT in a deck that has minimal shuffling. The deck was way faster than other posted previous MUD builds and was more consistent (to my liking) since it had ways to dig for more threats and answers in general.

    The dilemma of running Chalice of the Void is you lose that package. Welder is still stellar in the deck but it loses the ability to "cheat" artifacts onto the field. Yes you can still do Welder tricks but you lose the discard outlet to cheat artifacts onto the field faster.

    My build posted on the second post not only played as a Forgemaster Combo and Metalworker mana-flood.dec, it also played as a pseudo-reanimator via Faithless Looting and Goblin Welder. It gave me tons of options to have my robots onto the field. While it lacked Chalice of the Void, it ran Tangle Wire and Lightning Greaves as protection. While those cannot be compared to CotV, they somehow did the job.

    If Chalice of the Void were to run, the protection package is greatly upgraded. In return, you go back to the less consistent build that depended on its Topdeck as it has little to no deck manipulation. It will essentially be like a MUD Stompy build just like what Fropper used to top8 a 145man tournament.

    I am not saying thats the wrong way to go, all I am saying is that the deck loses its explosiveness. The thing about the explosiveness is that you can blow out fair decks such as Maverick and Blade-variants just like that.

    With CotV on the main, you gain your game with Canadian (which runs tons of 1cc spells) and a lot of combo decks. But this will make the deck slower, making it vulnerable to Maverick (which is a very resilient deck once it gets going) or Blade-variants (control decks tend to do that).

    Though there are sideboard options to deal with Maverick and Blade-variants in doing so (such as Cursed Totem and Thorn of Amethyst), is it for the better to turn the deck into a midrange build or go for the more explosive combo-eque build?
    Last edited by (nameless one); 05-31-2012 at 11:32 AM.
    I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle View Post
    13NoVa plays Force of Will from his hand.
    Finglonger plays Spell Pierce from his hand.
    [10:22:43]  13NoVa: lol
    sure
    Finglonger points from his Dack Fayden to 13NoVa's Sol Ring.
    [10:23:04]  13NoVa: lol dumb ******; nice draws with retard.dec
    stupid cocksucker
    You have been kicked out of the game.

  19. #119
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    I thought a lot about that. It comes down to consistency. If you go with the explosive version yea you will roll some games you shouldn't have otherwise, but it is still relatively frail and exploitable. I think the better option is to dial it back. Let's face it. We can't abuse every bit of tempo possible like UGR. We don't have the tutor or super powerful utility options maverick enjoys. And we definitely don't just roll through most hate like Dredge seemingly does. What we do have is the ability to make other decks play the game to our pace. Especially anything that wants to play fast and establish some permanents. I think the best way we can evolve the deck is to wrap the control and prison elements around the combo shell with the most cost efficient acceleration package we can determine. Disrupt the early game with powerful permanent options, and when we get the opportunity combo out and go for it. At worst we still have a redundant disruption and fattie package.

    I'm still not sold on where to go color wise, so we should probably develop all three splashes at the same time. Brown, Red, and Blue.
    -Steve
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    I'm gonna bang noobslayer's sister. Then I'm gonna do it again.
    How come it needs to be a holiday to bang noobslayer's sister?
    Quote Originally Posted by URABAHN View Post
    So, we should call it Peter, Paul, and Mary? Or we're supposed to go outside and start sucking dick?

  20. #120
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    I believe if you want to go disruption>disruption>fattie, you'd want to go Mono-brown. Red splash adds utility to it in the form of Welder.


    Blue is there for draw mostly though I don't think abusing Master Transmuter has been looked at.
    I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle View Post
    13NoVa plays Force of Will from his hand.
    Finglonger plays Spell Pierce from his hand.
    [10:22:43]  13NoVa: lol
    sure
    Finglonger points from his Dack Fayden to 13NoVa's Sol Ring.
    [10:23:04]  13NoVa: lol dumb ******; nice draws with retard.dec
    stupid cocksucker
    You have been kicked out of the game.

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