Page 69 of 80 FirstFirst ... 195965666768697071727379 ... LastLast
Results 1,361 to 1,380 of 1599

Thread: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

  1. #1361

    Re: [DTB] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

    I played waste-less this weekend at a small, casual (11) event and lost in T4 (got a Karakas):

    4 U Sea
    2 Trop
    2 Bayou
    10 Fetch

    4 DRS
    3 Strix
    3 SCM
    2 TNN
    2 Leovold
    1 Tombstalker
    1 JTMS

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    1 Painful Truths
    1 Unearth
    4 FoW
    1 Pierce
    1 Counterspell
    2 Thoughtseize
    2 Hymn
    3 Decay
    3 Push

    Sideboard
    2 Flusterstorm
    1 Invasive Surgery
    1 Thoughtseize
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Null Rod
    3 Surgical
    1 Marsh Casualities
    1 Toxic Deluge
    2 Diabolic Edict
    1 Dread of Night
    1 Clique

    I lost to Eldrazi and Sneak/Show, which line up well to the weaknesses inherent in cutting Goyf and Wasteland. Deck was very strong in other matches (2-0'd all, none very close).
    I ended up cutting the basics re: previous discussion, since Delver is typically rare at the expected meta, and it wasn't a problem. I'll probably put the Wastelands back. Unearth rotted in my hand a lot, particularly since it's almost fully dead in combo matches and miracles, etc.; it's probably out. If I played tomorrow, I'd go -1 Trop, -1 Unearth, -1 ??? (Leo, JTMS, Strix, or Ponder) for 3 Wastelands and consider trying to fit a 2nd Truths, Counterspell, and/or Tombstalker (which were all excellent). I don't want to take this too far, but the tapout vs. flash alignment of the threats/disruption is a bit mixed, and streamlining that more isn't a bad idea. Attacking with cheap threats (DRS, Delve guys) and flash threats (SCM, Clique) with a suite of SCM-enhanced counters is pretty compelling, though it makes True-Name, Leovold, Hymn, Jace, Truths harder to play. (Possibly go -2 Hymn, -1 Leo, +1 Counterspell, +1 Clique, +1 Thoughtseize). Would drop Deluge from the board for Garruk or the 2nd Leovold or Go for the Throat or something.

    A point that I knew, but was still surprised by, and would re-emphasize, is that it's easy for Source/etc. folks to be Legacy nerds and over-metagame. I only saw 1 other Fatal Push and 0 other Leovolds present. This is a particularly slow-to-change meta, but it's easy to have the mindset of "Push is everywhere, so Goyf/Delver are bad, so Push is bad, so stick to Hooting Mandrils and Dismembers" and next-level your metagaming into obscurity. (On the other hand, bigger events will see an abundance of newer tech.)
    Quote Originally Posted by 'Nilla Pac View Post
    I've goldfished with Doomsday decks about twenty times and I still haven't won a game yet.

  2. #1362
    Site Contributor
    Whitefaces's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jun 2013
    Location

    London
    Posts

    1,378

    Re: [DTB] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by anwei View Post
    at a small, casual (11) event

    A point that I knew, but was still surprised by, and would re-emphasize, is that it's easy for Source/etc. folks to be Legacy nerds and over-metagame. I only saw 1 other Fatal Push and 0 other Leovolds present. This is a particularly slow-to-change meta, but it's easy to have the mindset of "Push is everywhere, so Goyf/Delver are bad, so Push is bad, so stick to Hooting Mandrils and Dismembers" and next-level your metagaming into obscurity. (On the other hand, bigger events will see an abundance of newer tech.)
    I think these two points correlate together.
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Storm was killed by Leovold
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

  3. #1363
    Site Contributor

    Join Date

    Jun 2013
    Location

    Philadelphia, PA
    Posts

    1,658

    Re: [DTB] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

    Testing​ the 4c list more (and reading the discussion in the Miracles thread), I'm at an interesting spot and I'd like some other opinions. The 4c list seems significantly favored against non-Shardless blue decks, Sneak, and Reanimator, even-ish against D&T and Storm combo, and has an acceptable Elves matchup. On the other hand, there's no universe where it's beating Lands reliably since you're basically relying on their deck being non-functional in 2/3 games, and 4c Loam is even worse. Eldrazi, though it's much less popular than it used to be, probably isn't great. The BUG lists get Wasteland and more and better creatures so they can hang better in those matchups, but their blue matchups are closer. My instinct is that 4c is likely the best choice if you're looking to do well at a major event (where you can just accept the poor matchups since you aren't likely to run into them more than once), but at this point is there a reason to not play Miracles (beyond my person distaste for CounterTop)?

  4. #1364
    Member
    LarsLeif's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jun 2014
    Location

    Stockholm, Sweden
    Posts

    271

    Re: [DTB] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by btm10 View Post
    Testing​ the 4c list more (and reading the discussion in the Miracles thread), I'm at an interesting spot and I'd like some other opinions. The 4c list seems significantly favored against non-Shardless blue decks, Sneak, and Reanimator, even-ish against D&T and Storm combo, and has an acceptable Elves matchup. On the other hand, there's no universe where it's beating Lands reliably since you're basically relying on their deck being non-functional in 2/3 games, and 4c Loam is even worse. Eldrazi, though it's much less popular than it used to be, probably isn't great. The BUG lists get Wasteland and more and better creatures so they can hang better in those matchups, but their blue matchups are closer. My instinct is that 4c is likely the best choice if you're looking to do well at a major event (where you can just accept the poor matchups since you aren't likely to run into them more than once), but at this point is there a reason to not play Miracles (beyond my person distaste for CounterTop)?
    If you are looking for opinions I think that it is reasonable to also provide some background for the 4c decks. It was more or less created as a stand-alone archetype by Tomas Mar who won one of Europe's largest legacy tournaments last year (Ovino XI) with this deck: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13630&d=280217&f=LE. I wasn't there but this was during the Eldrazi winter, and I think he beat both Angelo Cadei and Tomas Vlcek to ultimately claim the trophy.

    The deck was then later picked up by Noah Walker and Oliver Tiu at GP Louisville, who both claimed it to be very good (Noah went 12-3). This is the deck that they played: https://twitter.com/EsperNoah/status/818242670434914305

    Recently Noah and Andrea Mengucci have started experimenting with a wasteland-less version that is more controlling and reactive - and I am trying that out as well.

    As you can see the deck can definitely play multiple wastelands if you want to do that, and I have done that as well without almost any issues. You are also by no means a dog vs lands even without them. Sure, game 1 is very rough, but post board you have infinite surgicals and good answers to their combo, making you a reasonable favourite to win the match. I would not pick up the wasteland-less version of the deck if I was expecting a heavy presence of Lands.dec though.

    Why you should play this over something like miracles is mainly because it beats miracles pretty consistently (which is very good and you don't do that if you play miracles yourself naturally). But you also have pretty good matchups across the board otherwise. Having access to four colors also means that you can play very versatile and powerful spells, really diminishing your truly bad matchups.

    This is my opinion about the deck right now, but I am still very unsure about the correct way to build the list - it isn't nearly as chiseled out as the other top decks are. Yet :)

  5. #1365
    Member

    Join Date

    Apr 2014
    Location

    Colorado Springs
    Posts

    92

    Re: [DTB] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

    If your having problems with Eldrazi, try a couple of Trygon Predators in sideboard. With evasiveness, super annoying and very difficult for Eldrazi to remove.

  6. #1366
    Member
    MXG's Avatar
    Join Date

    Sep 2015
    Location

    SoCal
    Posts

    34

    Re: [DTB] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

    In a vacuum, I'd advocate keeping 2-3 Wastelands in your deck, for the same reasons that Shardless BUG does. Sniping particularly annoying utility lands is a huge angle that this deck has over other control decks (e.g. Miracles), and it seems counterproductive to not press this as an advantage.
    MTGO: Maxtortion

  7. #1367
    Member
    Qweerios's Avatar
    Join Date

    Dec 2010
    Location

    Montreal
    Posts

    1,024

    Re: [DTB] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

    Hi fellow buggers!

    I used to play Bant Deathblade, moved to BUG midrange and finally settled on a BUG midrange deck with a tiny red splash (Bolt and Blast) instead of double black cards (Hymn, Stalker, Lily). I have my main, manabase (yes I play 4c, Basics, and Wasteland), and sideboard settled except for one small detail. I am calling upon your expertise and creativity to settle on my last SB slot. This is my sideboard:


    1 Vendilion Clique
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Pyroblast
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Diabolic Edict
    2 Pithing Needle
    2 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Garruk Relentless
    1 ???


    I have all the main matchups covered and I need that last slot to have a high impact against Miracles and BUG (Shardless and Midrange).

    I currently have Sylvan Library in that slot but I increasingly dislike the card for those matchups because Miracle brings in Wear // Tear for the Needles, and BUG decks have Decay and Leo... Painful Truths is somewhat similar but a little too low-impact for my taste as I don't get to filter every turn in a long grindy game.

    I find Garruk to be perfect in those matchups because producing a 2/2 from a PW every turn is backbreaking for Miracle, and he provides CA and removal against BUG. Ideally I would like to play something just like Garruk. Perhaps a 2nd copy is as good as it gets but maybe there is something similar that can be played in tandem with Garruk?

    I immediately thought about other PWs and it led me to Xenagos and Arlinn Kord. Xenagos is amazing against Miracles because the tokens have haste but looks lackluster against BUG. Arlinn is interesting against Miracles as she produces tokens and also offers direct damage and Pump/Haste for creatures. What I dislike about Arlinn is how you get all those powerful abilities but don't really get to choose as she requires to be flipped constantly. Also, this is a minor point but the only way to bring her up is to use her pump abilities (AKA: no CA) otherwise she slowly dies to constant flips. Against Miracle she won't produce a constant stream of tokens but she will provide constant aggression and give Jace a beating (more than Garruk). Against BUG she has relevant abilities but the flip constraint might be too restrictive. I also looked into Sarkan (the RUG one) but costing 5 is a downer and being blue is a big no-no against Miracles. He also isn't so hot against Jace...

    What do you think/suggest?
    Thanks!
    Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
    Get it...? Ass, u, me?

    ... ffs I was trying to be funny...

  8. #1368
    Member
    LarsLeif's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jun 2014
    Location

    Stockholm, Sweden
    Posts

    271

    Re: [DTB] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

    I think you should start by:

    1. Listening to the latest brainstorm show podcast where they discuss sideboarding. That will probably help you more than us just listing cards that are good against certain decks.

    2. Provide us with your MD - what constraints and opportunities for a well rounded sideboard does that imply? Are you playing snapcasters? Do you have sweepers MD? How is the mana base? All these things are important to know if we are going to be able to provide qualitative advice.

    3. Consider if Miracles and Shardless is the only matchups where you want this 15th card to be relevant in. If you also would like another card against delver or combo, maybe a more versatile card like another REB effect is more valuable for example.

    Start of there and then let us see what we can do. :)

  9. #1369
    Site Contributor

    Join Date

    Mar 2010
    Location

    Pittsburgh, PA
    Posts

    1,064

    Re: [DTB] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

    I ended 5-3 at the Eternal Extravagaza 6 yesterday. Disappointed, because I seriously felt well-prepared to Top 8, and all of my losses happened in extremely close Game 3 scenarios. First, here's the list I played:

    20 Lands (usual mixture)
    4 DRS
    3 Goyf
    2 TNN
    2 Leovold
    1 Tombstalker
    1 Liliana otV
    2 Jace TMS
    4 FoW
    4 Daze
    3 Hymn
    3 ADecay
    3 FPush
    1 Sylvan Library
    4 Bstorm
    3 Ponder

    SB:
    2 Flusterstorm
    1 invasive surgery
    1 V. Clique
    1 Garruk Relentless
    1 E. Explosives
    1 G. Cage
    1 S. Extraxtion
    1 P. Needle
    1 Null Rod
    1 Golgari Charm
    1 Dread of Night
    1 U. Jitte
    1 Toxic Deluge
    1 Darkblast

    I lost twice to the 4C Midrange Value Control deck that's been becoming more popular lately (and one of these guy's made top 8 -- Phil Pratt, congrats). It's an extremely difficult matchup, as the deck basically plays a million 2-for-1's like Baleful Strix, Snapcaster Mage, Kolaghan's Command, etc. and then of course they get Red Blasts out of the sideboard and Diabolical Edicts to confound your threat base.

    My third loss came against a BUG Delver deck in the final round that was playing a fairly low-to-the-ground mix (Spell Pierce, Tsieze). The worst part for me though, and the real reason I lost games 2 were because of Hooting Mandrills. I watched in abject horror as I continued to flood out turn after turn, while a copy of Abrupt Decay and Fatal Push rotted away in my hand.

    Some conclusions about the state of NE USA Legacy from this tournament:UWr Miracles is still king of the format. If you don't have a reliable plan to beat this deck, you shouldn't bother playing a big tournament as you are guaranteed to run into it in the higher X-0 brackets eventually. Also, I have found that it is extremely important to diversify your removal suite now, or at least play removal that lacks any conditions. As good as Fatal Push was most of the day, I would have liked having a Dismember and possibly an Engineereed Explosives in the main 60 to deal with random junk. Maybe even consider Diabolic Edict. People have caught onto the fact that playing creatures that dodge most forms of conventional removal is worthwhile.

    If I were to continue to develop this form of BUG midrange deck, I would reconfigure the creature mixture. Tombstalker consistently overperformed, whereas Goyf was fairly bad everywhere except against Eldrazi (but then TS would be good there too). Also, Garruk Relentless over-performed and possibly deserves a main-deck slot.

    I would probably start testing with the following mix as a main-deck threat mixture:
    4 DRS
    4 Baleful strix (maybe cut a few ponders if needed to make room, these would help protect your planeswalkers and life total while you assemble a better position)
    2 Tombstalker (trumps Angler and TNN by flying)
    1 TNN (I think a singleton would be fine as a 'gotcha')
    1 V. Clique
    2 Leovold (still an amazing disruptive and must-answer threat)
    1 Liliana otV
    1 Jace TMS
    1 Garruk Relentless
    1 Sylvan Library
    1 U. Jitte --- thus turning all of your threats into potential game-enders

  10. #1370
    Site Contributor

    Join Date

    Jun 2013
    Location

    Philadelphia, PA
    Posts

    1,658

    Re: [DTB] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

    I went 4-2-2 at EE6 yesterday with a 4c Control list; losses came to Burn in round 4 and the mirror in round 7, drew in round 5 with Miracles (we started g3 with < 5 minutes left so it's hard to draw conclusions about how it would've​played out "naturally"; by turn 6 he had a Jace, a Gideon, and 0-1 cards in hand to my Snap + Jace+ Deathrite with answers to both of his Planeswalkers between my hand and known cards on top of my deck; he was probably slightly ahead, but the short game forced both of us to play quite aggressively) and round 8 in the mirror (I ended pretty far ahead with Jace + Deathrite and REB in hand with Force and Fatal Push on top of my Library to his Deathrite in play and Scalding Tarn in hand). I beat Eldrazi, 4c Loam, Grixis Delver (Stifle), and Dredge. I was the only 4c Control player I saw with major threats in the maindeck, and while they were excellent against Delver, Loam, and Dredge, they were major liabilities in the control mirrors at the top tables.

    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Snapcaster Mage
    3 Baleful Strix
    2 Tarmogoyf

    4 Brainstorm
    3 Ponder
    1 Predict

    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    4 Force of Will
    3 Thoughtseize
    2 Counterspell
    3 Abrupt Decay
    2 Lightning Bolt
    1 Fatal Push
    1 Dismember
    1 Kolaghan's Command

    4 Polluted Delta
    3 Misty Rainforest
    2 Scalding Tarn
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Wasteland
    3 Underground Sea
    2 Tropical Island
    2 Volcanic Island
    1 Bayou

    Sideboard
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Pithing Needle
    2 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Pyroblast
    1 Fatal Push
    1 Golgari Charm
    1 Diabolic Edict
    1 Vendilion Clique
    1 Kolaghan's Command
    1 Thoughtseize

  11. #1371
    Member
    Qweerios's Avatar
    Join Date

    Dec 2010
    Location

    Montreal
    Posts

    1,024

    Re: [DTB] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by LarsLeif View Post
    I think you should start by:

    1. Listening to the latest brainstorm show podcast where they discuss sideboarding. That will probably help you more than us just listing cards that are good against certain decks.

    2. Provide us with your MD - what constraints and opportunities for a well rounded sideboard does that imply? Are you playing snapcasters? Do you have sweepers MD? How is the mana base? All these things are important to know if we are going to be able to provide qualitative advice.

    3. Consider if Miracles and Shardless is the only matchups where you want this 15th card to be relevant in. If you also would like another card against delver or combo, maybe a more versatile card like another REB effect is more valuable for example.

    Start of there and then let us see what we can do. :)
    I've downloaded the episode and will listen to it shortly. Thanks!

    This is my deck:

    4 Deathrite Shaman
    2 Baleful Strix
    2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
    3 True-Name Nemesis
    3 Snapcaster Mage

    4 Force of Will
    3 Thoughtseize
    1 Counterspell

    3 Lightning Bolt
    4 Abrupt Decay

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder

    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    2 Wasteland

    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn
    2 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Underground Sea
    2 Tropical Island
    1 Bayou
    1 Volcanic Island
    1 Badlands
    1 Swamp
    1 Island

    //SB
    1 Vendilion Clique
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Pyroblast
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Diabolic Edict
    1 Painful Truths?
    2 Pithing Needle
    2 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Garruk Relentless


    As I stated in my previous post, this last slot needs to be high impact against Midrange BUG and Miracles as I have all the other important matchups covered in my sideboard mapping. Ideally not a red card as I only have 2 red duals which I am comfortable supporting Bolts with but don't want to go above 5 red cards postboard for matchups with Wastelands (I.E.: BUG plays 2-3 Wastelands and I want both 3 Bolts and 2 Pyro for this matchup). I don't bring in Pyroblast against Delver. All the other matchups where Pyroblast is relevant there are either no Wastelands coming my way or Bolt is irrelevant. Even with this said, perhaps a 3rd Pyroblast would be a good call!

    Concerning sweepers I don't have any and don't believe I need them. I tried to squeeze in 1-2 Explosives for Elves, DnT, opposing TNN, and token-flooded boards but EE would compete with main Bolt and Decay, and side Edict, Needle, and Jitte which I all value more than EE. The same reasoning applies to Kolaghan's Command. I am comfortable countering, discarding, or racing TNN and I am confidant I can break through DnT and Elves without a sweeper. If I had a better matchup against Lands or Turbo Depths I would consider EE and Deluge in the board but as it is now, Needles and Edicts deserved a few copies each in my SB that I cannot afford to diversify. Besides, Edicts and Needles have their own respective strengths against Miracle, Sneak, Reanimator, Eldrazi, Infect, and Delver to name a few... Perhaps a I could lose a Jitte for a Deluge, I just haven't needed it so far and if I had to chose one to get, I usually pick the Jitte.
    Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
    Get it...? Ass, u, me?

    ... ffs I was trying to be funny...

  12. #1372
    Site Contributor

    Join Date

    Jul 2011
    Location

    Maastricht, NL
    Posts

    2,510

    Re: [DTB] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by btm10 View Post
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Snapcaster Mage
    3 Baleful Strix
    2 Tarmogoyf

    4 Brainstorm
    3 Ponder
    1 Predict

    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    4 Force of Will
    3 Thoughtseize
    2 Counterspell
    3 Abrupt Decay
    2 Lightning Bolt
    1 Fatal Push
    1 Dismember
    1 Kolaghan's Command

    4 Polluted Delta
    3 Misty Rainforest
    2 Scalding Tarn
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Wasteland
    3 Underground Sea
    2 Tropical Island
    2 Volcanic Island
    1 Bayou

    Sideboard
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Pithing Needle
    2 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Pyroblast
    1 Fatal Push
    1 Golgari Charm
    1 Diabolic Edict
    1 Vendilion Clique
    1 Kolaghan's Command
    1 Thoughtseize
    Isn't Predict really bad?
    You generally need a cantrip to make it work properly, and if you do use cantrip + Predict, you still only net +1 card advantage, losing three mana. That's a huge tempo loss. You can cast a Baleful Strix for a mana less and still go +1 card advantage. Besides, it generally draws you two randoms. Impulse will get you the best card of the top 4, without needing a second card to make it work.

    I personally consider Predict highly dubious even in Ponder Miracles, let alone in a deck like this. Am I wrong to think like this?

  13. #1373
    Site Contributor

    Join Date

    Jun 2013
    Location

    Philadelphia, PA
    Posts

    1,658

    Re: [DTB] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    Isn't Predict really bad?
    You generally need a cantrip to make it work properly, and if you do use cantrip + Predict, you still only net +1 card advantage, losing three mana. That's a huge tempo loss. You can cast a Baleful Strix for a mana less and still go +1 card advantage. Besides, it generally draws you two randoms. Impulse will get you the best card of the top 4, without needing a second card to make it work.

    I personally consider Predict highly dubious even in Ponder Miracles, let alone in a deck like this. Am I wrong to think like this?
    I cast it 3 or 4 times over the course of the event, each time for full value. It's not hard to set up with 7-8 cantrips + Snapcaster Mage, and between Delvers and the occasional blind Counterbalance you occasionally get to hit your opponent's deck. Don't forget that it was a staple in old UG Thresh lists - it's not hard to set up, and 2 mana at Instant speed as way lower risk than 3 mana at Sorcery speed for Painful Truths. I'm not convinced it's optional, but it's far from bad.

  14. #1374
    Site Contributor

    Join Date

    Jul 2011
    Location

    Maastricht, NL
    Posts

    2,510

    Re: [DTB] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by btm10 View Post
    I cast it 3 or 4 times over the course of the event, each time for full value. It's not hard to set up with 7-8 cantrips + Snapcaster Mage, and between Delvers and the occasional blind Counterbalance you occasionally get to hit your opponent's deck. Don't forget that it was a staple in old UG Thresh lists - it's not hard to set up, and 2 mana at Instant speed as way lower risk than 3 mana at Sorcery speed for Painful Truths. I'm not convinced it's optional, but it's far from bad.
    Yeah I played UGx Thresh back in '08. I felt Predict was the weakest card in that deck.
    Maybe it's just personal preference. If you can make it work, and feel it's a solid addition, by all means. I was just wondering.

  15. #1375
    Site Contributor

    Join Date

    Jun 2013
    Location

    Philadelphia, PA
    Posts

    1,658

    Re: [DTB] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    Yeah I played UGx Thresh back in '08. I felt Predict was the weakest card in that deck.
    Maybe it's just personal preference. If you can make it work, and feel it's a solid addition, by all means. I was just wondering.
    I'm going to test other cards in the slot just to see how they work, but I liked Predict a little more than Painful Truths. Fact or Fiction and Night's Whisper are also on the docket.

  16. #1376
    Member
    Baum's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2013
    Location

    Cologne, Germany
    Posts

    96

    Re: [DTB] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

    Recently, I toyed around with Friedman's list (http://www.gatheringmagic.com/benfri...ultai-garbage/) with multiple Snapcaster Mages and delve creatures. The main thing I changed is playing Tombstalker instead of Gurmag Angler. The Stalker is just sooo good right now, flying over TNN and other ground creatures.

    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Snapcaster Mage
    3 Baleful Strix
    3 Tombstalker

    4 Brainstorm
    3 Ponder
    2 Thought Scour
    2 Liliana, the Last Hope
    4 Force of Will
    2 Counterspell
    3 Thoughtseize
    3 Abrupt Decay
    3 Fatal Push

    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    2 Misty Rainforest
    4 Underground Sea
    2 Tropical Island
    2 Bayou
    1 Volcanic Island
    1 Badlands

    Sideboard:
    3 Surgical Extraction
    3 Red Elemental Blast
    2 Vendilion Clique
    1 Thoughtseize
    2 Pithing Needle
    1 Liliana of the Veil
    1 Diabolic Edict
    1 Toxic Deluge
    1 Golgari Charm

    Liliana, the Last Hope is surprisingly strong. I didn't expect much when I first tried out the card but it really pulled its weight. Besides filling the graveyard, getting back Snapcasters and Strixes is pretty good. The +1 is obviously good against decks like D&T or opposing Strixes, but shrinking down opposing Goyfs and Anglers to make them smaller than Tombstalker has come up more often than I expected. The ultimate comes up from time to time, but I usually just try to get as much value as possible with her +1 and -2. Getting a Lili on 7 loyalty decayed is just bad... Lili fills out a similar role as Kolaghan's Command in the recent 4c Midrange/Control builds.

    Right now I'm not playing Leovold. The card is great but I just can't find the slots. The obvious card to cut would be Clique, but I want to have additional flash threats against combo decks, where it's dangerous to tap out for a creature.

    I'm not sure if the red splash is worth the weaker mana base. I just wasn't confident about my Miracles matchup without the blasts. If they run a postboard configuration with Counterbalance, Blood Moon and Mentor, Decay and Counterspell are heavily taxed and I'd like to have the Blasts for Counterbalance etc.
    Jace is also a beating. I haven't played against the 3-4 Predict builds so far, but you probably need Blasts to counter their card advantage. Red Blast should also give an edge against other BUG Midrange Builds and Sneak Show.
    Against Storm, the current SB is rather weak, but the deck is not exactly common in the current meta.

    Before the red splash, I played Invasive Surgery, Duress and Maelstrom Pulse in those slots. In this case, I'd probably play basic Island and Swamp intest of the red lands.

    The deck is weak to Rest in Peace, but since D&T is the only deck that runs the card, it's a risk I'm willing to take. I also can't beat a resolved Blood Moon but whatever.

  17. #1377
    Member
    LarsLeif's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jun 2014
    Location

    Stockholm, Sweden
    Posts

    271

    Re: [DTB] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Qweerios View Post
    I've downloaded the episode and will listen to it shortly. Thanks!

    As I stated in my previous post, this last slot needs to be high impact against Midrange BUG and Miracles as I have all the other important matchups covered in my sideboard mapping. Ideally not a red card as I only have 2 red duals which I am comfortable supporting Bolts with but don't want to go above 5 red cards postboard for matchups with Wastelands (I.E.: BUG plays 2-3 Wastelands and I want both 3 Bolts and 2 Pyro for this matchup). I don't bring in Pyroblast against Delver. All the other matchups where Pyroblast is relevant there are either no Wastelands coming my way or Bolt is irrelevant. Even with this said, perhaps a 3rd Pyroblast would be a good call!

    Concerning sweepers I don't have any and don't believe I need them. I tried to squeeze in 1-2 Explosives for Elves, DnT, opposing TNN, and token-flooded boards but EE would compete with main Bolt and Decay, and side Edict, Needle, and Jitte which I all value more than EE. The same reasoning applies to Kolaghan's Command. I am comfortable countering, discarding, or racing TNN and I am confidant I can break through DnT and Elves without a sweeper. If I had a better matchup against Lands or Turbo Depths I would consider EE and Deluge in the board but as it is now, Needles and Edicts deserved a few copies each in my SB that I cannot afford to diversify. Besides, Edicts and Needles have their own respective strengths against Miracle, Sneak, Reanimator, Eldrazi, Infect, and Delver to name a few... Perhaps a I could lose a Jitte for a Deluge, I just haven't needed it so far and if I had to chose one to get, I usually pick the Jitte.
    Well as you say it's a bit mana-base dependent. If you have to choose between playing bolts or REBs I would prioritize rebs, Push is an acceptable replacement for Bolt. So if you only want 5 red spells I would play less bolts I think. You can also work in another red dual in order to be able to play more red spells. I'm not the biggest fan of garruk in the BUG Midrange mirrors anymore, he isn't as good vs strixes, TNN and leovold etc. Still reasonable I guess. I don't think you need dedicated sweepers either, but it's meta dependent :)

  18. #1378
    Member
    Qweerios's Avatar
    Join Date

    Dec 2010
    Location

    Montreal
    Posts

    1,024

    Re: [DTB] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by LarsLeif View Post
    Well as you say it's a bit mana-base dependent. If you have to choose between playing bolts or REBs I would prioritize rebs, Push is an acceptable replacement for Bolt. So if you only want 5 red spells I would play less bolts I think. You can also work in another red dual in order to be able to play more red spells. I'm not the biggest fan of garruk in the BUG Midrange mirrors anymore, he isn't as good vs strixes, TNN and leovold etc. Still reasonable I guess. I don't think you need dedicated sweepers either, but it's meta dependent :)
    Thanks for the reply!
    I came to a similar conclusion as I ended up cutting Bolts entirely for 2 Push and a Jitte mainboard. I really don't see the point of Bolt anymore in this type of deck. Red main was clunky and made my fetching awkward so I opted for a BUG mainboard with a single Volcanic with a Mountain in my SB for 3 Pyroblasts and 2 Grim Lavamancers. The Grims have been putting in serious work against Shardless and Team America and I can only imagine what they will do in Elves and DnT... Also, going down to 20 lands and losing Wasteland entirely is better as I can easily use all my land drops (Jace with Blast backup, Ponder into Snap + Counter/Decay, etc.).

    As for Garruk, most of the BUG mirrors I play are against Shardless so Nemesis is not an issue but shitting out enough cards to take over is often a factor (Grim and Garruk solve this). What would you play instead of Garruk? The only card I can think of that could replace him would be Painful Truths with the possibility of Snapcasting it back.

    Any thoughts?
    Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
    Get it...? Ass, u, me?

    ... ffs I was trying to be funny...

  19. #1379
    Member
    LarsLeif's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jun 2014
    Location

    Stockholm, Sweden
    Posts

    271

    Re: [DTB] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

    I don't exactly play something "instead of Garruk", we have pretty different lists (and I'm brewing new ones constantly :p ). But if you want some input on what you can play instead the list I'm considering right now is this one:

    CREATURES (14)
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Baleful Strix
    4 Snapcaster Mage
    2 Tombstalker

    SORCERIES (4)
    4 Ponder

    INSTANTS (21)
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Lightning Bolt
    2 Abrupt Decay
    2 Counterspell
    2 Spell Snare
    2 Thought Scour
    2 Kolaghan’s Command

    PLANESWALKERS (2)
    2 Liliana, the Last Hope

    LANDS (19)
    3 Underground Sea
    2 Tropical Island
    2 Volcanic Island
    1 Badlands
    1 Bayou
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Scalding Tarn
    1 Misty Rainforest
    1 Bloodstained Mire

    SIDEBOARD (15)
    3 Pyroblast
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Vendilion Clique
    2 Swan Song
    2 Diabolic Edict
    2 Forked Bolt
    1 Abrupt Decay
    1 Marsh Casualties

    Otherwise you can also take a look a pelleniks list that he's been playing to solid performances online (more UB-control than 4c really):https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/591343#paper It also seems very good.

  20. #1380
    Member

    Join Date

    Jun 2014
    Location

    L.A., CA
    Posts

    242

    Re: [DTB] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

    Looks like the 4C Control list is all the rage right now. Are people eschewing TNNs and Leos solely because of all the Pyroblasts running around? I understand the merits of playing this against other blue fair decks and Miracles with all the card advantage, but how is it against things like DnT and Eldrazi? K-Command has got to be pretty good against them, yet stack interaction instead of discard must not be ideal in those matchups. Can those who are playing the 4C mega-Snap version talk about the non-blue matchups?

    Thanks!

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)