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Thread: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

  1. #741
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    Re: [DTB] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian23 View Post
    If you wait for your opponent to name a card with Cabal Therapy before trying to Misdirect it, you're gonna be in for a surprise...
    Sarpadian Empires, Vol. VII

  2. #742

    Re: [DTB] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by catmint View Post
    Nice Jarvis and Einjerher.

    What I wonder is curve and manabase.

    A short comparison of manabase and avg cmc manacost of my list and the last 2 (counting FoW as 0 mana & snapcaster as 3 mana spell)

    We all run 4 deathrite and 9+ fetches.

    I run 23 lands (3 wastelands, 20 normal colored lands) with a much lover curve: avg cmc: 1,68

    Jarvis runs 23 lands (4 wastelands, 1 tar pit, 18 normal colored lands) with an avg cmc curve of: 1,95

    Einherjer has a list of 22 colored lands and an avg cmc curve of: 1,74

    .. the funny thing is even I feel more often clunky and screwed than the other way round... i.e.: in the same tournament Einherjer played, I had a draw in round 1 against canadian (which I btw conceded because I had limited time leading to a 3:2 drop loosing to dredge in Round 5) and each game was basically decided by me developing my mana properly or not (G3 against canadian was strongly in my favour)

    Another thing where I would feel very exposed is the 1cmc removal. In our locals yesterday there were still 2+ Goblins and 2+ Maverick, so at least 10+% of the meta where not having 1cmc removal can just "loose" a game right there in turn 1 (not counting the other random mother decks like BW stoneblade or Death & Taxes)

    Maybe I am just a pussy and my evaluation of a proper curve is based on selective memory, but to me it feels that mana, curve and removal is what this archetype has to figure out. Then you are free to choose from all the great spells in the 75 in order to prepare for an expected meta.
    I agree completely on this. If we look at say the Bant Stoneblade lists they seem to run 22 Lands 3 Being wasteland but they only have Jace for Double blue while their white cards only require a single white. We have liliana which needs double black and abrupt decay which is black and green and Shamans

    I think we need 23 Land total 20 colored lands 10 being fetchlands and no more than 3 colorless and 1 basic of each

    This is my manabase and i am running full blue suit with FOW and spell pierce no Hymns

    4 Deathrite, 3 Snapcaster, 4 Tarmogoyf, 2 Vendilion Clique, 3 Jace, 2 Liliana

    4 Misty
    4 Polluted Delta
    2 Verdant Catacombs
    3 Underground Sea
    2 Bayou
    2 Tropical Island
    3 Wasteland
    1 Swamp
    1 Island
    1 Forest

    I also am worried about the lack of 1 cc removal. I like dismember or disfigure what are everyones opinions?

  3. #743
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
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    Re: [DTB] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

    I tested disfigure a lot and was very happy. Does exactly what you need in the early game and is rarely dead in the late game. There are of course some awkward situations with ooze, Goyf & knight but that's rare a fair trade for not paying 4 life which is very bad against many decks and with snapcasters.. ouch.

    I play 2 disfigure, 3 abrupt decay maindeck and 2 ghastly demise, 1 decay sideboard.
    Currently playing: Elves

  4. #744
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    Re: [DTB] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

    Catmint - has Tombstalker been a problem out of BUG Delver? Your only answers seem to be counterspells, Jace, and Liliana, and it seems like you would board most of the first two out.

  5. #745
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
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    Re: [DTB] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

    Tombstalker is the most potent threat, but the main problem is hymn followed up by stalker. I only board out 1 jace since they dont have burn and dont attack the manbase with stifle.

    Other conditional answers you missed: deathrite's cleaning the GY (delay). Putting on bottom with Vendilion Clique. Clique block + Disfigure, Baleful Strix (my favourite answer) and maelstrom pulse. Since they are very light on removal and usually fire it asap on deathrites, baleful strix also refilling the hand (vs. hmyn) becomes one of the best cards against BUG tempo.

    So far I like playing BUG tempo much more than RUG tempo. I fear Stifle more than Hymn. Developing mana and topdecking is better than a full hand without enough resources (time, mana, life,...).
    Currently playing: Elves

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    Re: [DTB] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by catmint View Post
    Tombstalker is the most potent threat, but the main problem is hymn followed up by stalker. I only board out 1 jace since they dont have burn and dont attack the manbase with stifle.

    Other conditional answers you missed: deathrite's cleaning the GY (delay). Putting on bottom with Vendilion Clique. Clique block + Disfigure, Baleful Strix (my favourite answer) and maelstrom pulse. Since they are very light on removal and usually fire it asap on deathrites, baleful strix also refilling the hand (vs. hmyn) becomes one of the best cards against BUG tempo.

    So far I like playing BUG tempo much more than RUG tempo. I fear Stifle more than Hymn. Developing mana and topdecking is better than a full hand without enough resources (time, mana, life,...).
    Ah, I did forget about Strix and Pulse. Baleful Strix is the tits.

    I found Thresh pretty easy, but didn't test extensively. Having basics was essential. Both seem relatively favorable.

  7. #747
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
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    Re: [DTB] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

    Canadian is never easy. Some hands you feel very strong if you can get basics, resolve a strix and have a couple of removal spells and goyfs. But some other times you have to walk into their Stifle, wasteland (daze) and if you then miss your land drop suddenly a simple submerge on a deathrite feels like a stab in your heart.
    Currently playing: Elves

  8. #748

    Re: [DTB] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

    I've built this list and i need your feedback:

    BUG midrange

    23 Lands

    4 wasteland
    1 Creeping Tar Pit
    1 Polluted Delta
    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Underground Sea
    2 Bayou
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Swamp
    1 Island

    //12
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Tarmogoyf
    4 Dark Confidant

    //5
    2 Liliana of the Veil
    3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    Spells 20
    1 maelstrom pulse
    2 hymn to tourach
    1 Life from the loam
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Thoughtseize
    3 spell Pierce
    2 Ponder
    4 Abrupt Decay

    Sideboard
    2 Vendillion clique
    4 force of will
    1 flusterstorm
    1 Life from the Loam
    2 extractions
    1 Garruk
    2 deed
    2 disfigure
    After Sideboarding i have a blue count of ~ 20 to support FoW.
    I would really like to play FoW in the maindeck, but i couldn't figure out how to do this.
    I'm not quite sure about the 2 Hymn to Tourach in the MD and the deeds in the SB. Should i play Garruk MD instead and 1 Maelstrom pulse?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Einherjer View Post
    When Obilivion Ring is said to be an equivalent counterpiece to Red Elemental Blast in regards to Show and Tell and Jace, you know all is lost.

  9. #749
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    Re: [DTB] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

    I've built something similar with confidant maindeck and FoW in the sideboard.

    My comments:
    Confidant is bad if you fall behind in tempo and/or life total, so you have to make sure you don't. He is also a bad defensive card. Therefore I would put more early game action & defensive in the deck cutting slow stuff. Also I don't like only relying on decay & liliana for removal since you need to beat lackey, mother & thalia. I play a 3/2 split of decay & disfigure main + 2 Ghalsty demise, 1 Decay in the sideboard.

    My suggested changes to your list:

    -1 Goyf (We are not tempo and often don't want to cast multiples early but rather control the game and then let him take over)
    -1 Confidant
    -1 Pulse (slow -> SB versus tokens & Plainswalkers)
    -1 Loam (slow grindy -> SB if you like it for the meta)
    -1 Abrupt Decay
    -2 Hymn to tourach

    +2 Disfigure
    +2 Baleful Strix (best card against BUG tempo - good against RUG)
    +2 Snapcaster Mage (Good defensive, grindy qualities - also flashback discard versus combo)
    +1 Discard Spell (I prefer 2/2 split of thoughtseize and inquisition - especially with life loss from)


    For Sideboard: This is really meta dependent. I don't like the deed plan in any matchup anymore due to deathrite beeing so strong and deed is antisynergistic with deathrite. Counterspell is a card that I come to love in every control matchup (I play 2 in the sideboard) where it is mostly about Jace, card is also decent versus combo or some ramp decks. I would also play Jace +4 over Garruk, but in the "Jace-matchups" finding the jace is usually not the problem. It is more about making him matter.
    Currently playing: Elves

  10. #750
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    Re: [DTB] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

    What are your thoughts on Eric Frolenich and Conley Woods' take on the deck? They cut Goyfs for a white splash of Lingering Souls and StP. Conley also played 2 Stoneforge Mystic. For reference, Conley talks about the deck and provides the 2 lists here; http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=10958

  11. #751

    Re: [DTB] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

    In my current BUG control list I am really starting to dislike Life from the Loam.
    While I love the card. It just seems so clunky and annoying to play.
    W/ Jace + loam mass Ca, that just seems like a win-more position when you could just be +2-ing.
    thoughts...?

  12. #752

    Re: [DTB] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

    I think a 1-of at least is really good in the maindeck. It just makes your land drops so much easier and synergizes with so many cards in the deck:
    Brainstorm
    liliana of the veil
    Jtms
    Goyf/Dr Shaman (dredge to feed the yard)

    The perpetual land drops is actually relevant (for my deck anyways) since I'm playing the long control game and the more lands I have, the more I can deed for.

    Sidenote: I don't understand why people aren't playing deed in this deck atm. I know it seems like dis-synergy with shaman/goyf and I was skeptical to begin with, but its been amazing for me. I often find myself nuking 1 of my shamans with it, but I honestly dont mind since it takes out their shamans+2 drops with it. Oftentimes what I find is that I run out a goyf to stall the board and they overextend to get around the goyf. Then I pull the deed trigger and everythings honky-dory. It's also amazing vs any decks that cascades (jund, bugless) since their card advantage tends to be on the board than in hand.

    Edit: The main problems I have with the deck are UR delver (or anything super fast red decks running burn) and lingering souls (I bring in eplague and its fine, but a bit clunky; was wondering if there were any better solutions to this. I ran 3 deeds/2ee/1 tabernacle vs tokens in 1 tourny but it wasn't as good as eplague). But any fast red deck tends to be a beating for me. Perhaps strix's would help here.

  13. #753
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    Re: [DTB] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by somethingdotdotdot View Post
    Edit: The main problems I have with the deck are UR delver (or anything super fast red decks running burn) and lingering souls (I bring in eplague and its fine, but a bit clunky; was wondering if there were any better solutions to this. I ran 3 deeds/2ee/1 tabernacle vs tokens in 1 tourny but it wasn't as good as eplague). But any fast red deck tends to be a beating for me. Perhaps strix's would help here.
    For Spirits you could try Dread of Night. And for UR or/and burn run more BEBs/Hydroblasts. I don't know is jitte good enought here, since we don't run that many creatures..

  14. #754

    Re: [DTB] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

    What do you think about Bitterblossom in a BUG control list?
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    When Obilivion Ring is said to be an equivalent counterpiece to Red Elemental Blast in regards to Show and Tell and Jace, you know all is lost.

  15. #755
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    Re: [DTB] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Adryan View Post
    What do you think about Bitterblossom in a BUG control list?
    At that point, why not just drop green and play Esper for Lingering Souls?

    I played Shardless BUG this past weekend and was disappointed with the deck, going 2-3. Sometimes you draw fire and feel unbeatable; other times you get disrupted just a little and everything falls apart. I also feel that in this style of control deck, Tarmogoyf is extremely underwhelming and I'd rather be playing some sort of utility creature, perhaps even Scavenging Ooze.

    In general, I think BUG as a control strategy is not where you want to be, especially now that the format has shifted again with the rise of Jund. I think Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay are both incredible cards, but they tend to work much better in either Team America (BUG tempo) or Jund (an arguably much stronger and consistent midrange deck than BUG). I felt a lot like a Deedstill player, trading back and forth but ultimately just losing to the one threat that slipped through. Deedstill is a great example of a deck that's full of powerful cards but somehow the deck just ends up sucking because everything has to go right for them to matter. Modern BUG control doesn't seem that different in this regard.

  16. #756

    Re: [DTB] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

    Here's what I have been working on for the Jund Matchups:

    Lands:
    4 Wasteland
    1 Creeping Tar Pit
    3 Underground Sea
    1 Bayou
    3 Verdant Catacombs
    3 Misty Rainforest
    2 Tropical Island
    2 Island
    1 Swamp
    1 Forest

    2 Maze of Ith, considering making this 3.


    Instants:
    4 Brainstorms
    2 Spell Pierce
    1 Spell Snare
    3 Abrupt Decay
    2 Counterspell
    2 Diabolic Edict
    3 Force of Will

    Sorceries:
    2 Thoughtseize
    3 Ponder
    1 Life from the Loam
    1 Maelstrom Pulse

    Artifacts:
    2 Mox Diamond
    1 Sensei's Diving Top

    Enchantments:
    3 Pernicious Deed

    Creatures:
    3 Tombstalkers

    Planewalkers:
    3 Jace, The Mindsculptor


    Sideboard:
    3 Chill, RDW and Burn can just wreck you otherwise.
    3 Extirpate
    1 Inquisition of Kozilek
    1 Relic of Progenitous
    2 Thoughtseize
    1 Spell Snare
    1 Spell Pierce
    1 Maelstrom Pulse
    2 Thrun, the last Troll


    Against most combo it's an easy win. Jund is still quite a bit of a fight, but Maze gives the deck a lot of time though. Considering upping the count to be honest. Maze is that good against Jund. I had been trying Damnation to fight Jund, but had issues with getting blown out by some other decks trying to fight through the hate with 3 dead cards. Damnation does help though.

    Honestly, this color combination has a lot of issues to work out if it want's to keep up with BBE. I think as far as B/G/* decks go Jund is better. Junk is better than Jund, but Junk usually loses to BUG something fierce. I built this after I started getting uber-crushed playing CAB Jace still on the MODO Meta. I wasn't having trouble with the Tempo decks it was the Deathrite Shaman decks that were getting me.

    I have tried EE, and various other ways of beat DRS. I even tried Disfigure, but for a straight up control deck having such a situational answer is not ideal in the least. It might work for you Tempo Players, but honestly I can not play Tempo anymore. I have played Tempo decks since Team America first appeared on the scene. I'm tired of them, and do not want to play them anymore. I want a straight up control deck, and just haven't worked up the motivation to build an Esper-Blade/Miracle deck. Mainly because of the cost of the lands. Otherwise I would rock Miracle-Blade, that deck is better positioned than this one right now.


    To add are there any online players here anymore? I know the Daily's are running again, finally, just haven't caught up with the current crop that is running in them yet. My Clan pretty much disappeared back when the dailies stopped.

  17. #757
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    Re: [DTB] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by NidStyles View Post
    Here's what I have been working on for the Jund Matchups:

    Lands:
    4 Wasteland
    1 Creeping Tar Pit
    3 Underground Sea
    1 Bayou
    3 Verdant Catacombs
    3 Misty Rainforest
    2 Tropical Island
    2 Island
    1 Swamp
    1 Forest

    2 Maze of Ith, considering making this 3.


    Instants:
    4 Brainstorms
    2 Spell Pierce
    1 Spell Snare
    3 Abrupt Decay
    2 Counterspell
    2 Diabolic Edict
    3 Force of Will

    Sorceries:
    2 Thoughtseize
    3 Ponder
    1 Life from the Loam
    1 Maelstrom Pulse

    Artifacts:
    2 Mox Diamond
    1 Sensei's Diving Top

    Enchantments:
    3 Pernicious Deed

    Creatures:
    3 Tombstalkers

    Planewalkers:
    3 Jace, The Mindsculptor


    Sideboard:
    3 Chill, RDW and Burn can just wreck you otherwise.
    3 Extirpate
    1 Inquisition of Kozilek
    1 Relic of Progenitous
    2 Thoughtseize
    1 Spell Snare
    1 Spell Pierce
    1 Maelstrom Pulse
    2 Thrun, the last Troll


    Against most combo it's an easy win. Jund is still quite a bit of a fight, but Maze gives the deck a lot of time though. Considering upping the count to be honest. Maze is that good against Jund. I had been trying Damnation to fight Jund, but had issues with getting blown out by some other decks trying to fight through the hate with 3 dead cards. Damnation does help though.

    Honestly, this color combination has a lot of issues to work out if it want's to keep up with BBE. I think as far as B/G/* decks go Jund is better. Junk is better than Jund, but Junk usually loses to BUG something fierce.
    Which BUG am I losing to, specifically? Control or Aggro?

    -Matt

  18. #758

    Re: [DTB] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by sdematt View Post
    Which BUG am I losing to, specifically? Control or Aggro?

    -Matt
    I have Junk too, it loses to Deeds. Essentially control.

  19. #759

    Re: [DTB] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by wcm8 View Post
    At that point, why not just drop green and play Esper for Lingering Souls?

    I played Shardless BUG this past weekend and was disappointed with the deck, going 2-3. Sometimes you draw fire and feel unbeatable; other times you get disrupted just a little and everything falls apart. I also feel that in this style of control deck, Tarmogoyf is extremely underwhelming and I'd rather be playing some sort of utility creature, perhaps even Scavenging Ooze.

    In general, I think BUG as a control strategy is not where you want to be, especially now that the format has shifted again with the rise of Jund. I think Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay are both incredible cards, but they tend to work much better in either Team America (BUG tempo) or Jund (an arguably much stronger and consistent midrange deck than BUG). I felt a lot like a Deedstill player, trading back and forth but ultimately just losing to the one threat that slipped through. Deedstill is a great example of a deck that's full of powerful cards but somehow the deck just ends up sucking because everything has to go right for them to matter. Modern BUG control doesn't seem that different in this regard.
    Jund is more inconsistent than BUG because it doesn't play blue. I'm really tired of "Jund is the best BGx Midrange Deck- no other Midrange Deck can beat it". This is not Modern, where Jund is the best Midrange deck.

    Jund in Legacy is just hype. Before Jund everyone was on the BUG hype. BUG Midrange/ especially BUG Control can have a very positive Matchup against Jund, you just have to build it properly. Maybe add some Control Stuff, like Damnation and Deed or play 4 Baleful Strix or Life from the Loam with 5 Manlands.

    Just look at this hypothetical Sideboard:

    2 Damnation
    2 Deeds
    1 Maelstrom Pulse
    2 Disfigure
    1 Diabolic Edict

    It says: " Dear Jund player, i think you are dead"



    I tested Bitterblossom MD in my Shardless Agent Build against Esperstoneblade. This card is very good in this Matchup.
    I'm going to test it in my other BUG Midrange Deck next weekend in my SB.
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    When Obilivion Ring is said to be an equivalent counterpiece to Red Elemental Blast in regards to Show and Tell and Jace, you know all is lost.

  20. #760

    Re: [DTB] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Adryan View Post
    Jund is more inconsistent than BUG because it doesn't play blue. I'm really tired of "Jund is the best BGx Midrange Deck- no other Midrange Deck can beat it". This is not Modern, where Jund is the best Midrange deck.

    Jund in Legacy is just hype. Before Jund everyone was on the BUG hype. BUG Midrange/ especially BUG Control can have a very positive Matchup against Jund, you just have to build it properly. Maybe add some Control Stuff, like Damnation and Deed or play 4 Baleful Strix or Life from the Loam with 5 Manlands.

    Just look at this hypothetical Sideboard:

    2 Damnation
    2 Deeds
    1 Maelstrom Pulse
    2 Disfigure
    1 Diabolic Edict

    It says: " Dear Jund player, i think you are dead"



    I tested Bitterblossom MD in my Shardless Agent Build against Esperstoneblade. This card is very good in this Matchup.
    I'm going to test it in my other BUG Midrange Deck next weekend in my SB.

    The full control decks have issues with Jund, because of Cascade, and their tool box of hand disruption. You can say that it's hype, but as a Modern and Legacy Player, Jund isn't hype in Modern. It has the best game one average in the format, and it has the best matchup against a wider range of decks in that format.

    In Legacy, Jund is good.



    BTW, a deck doesn't instantly become more consistent with the addition of Blue. Consistency is measured in numerous ways, and just adding Blue doesn't make something more consistent. Dredge is pretty consistent, and it's not because it has Blue. Deadguy is pretty consistent, and it doesn't have Blue.

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