[Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

[btm10]

I found them just fine, but they're also there to get the blue count up to about 18 for 3 Forces. But, I agree, since games do go long, they're kind of ass sometimes. I'm also considering cutting them for action, and Thoughtseize/Hymn seem like good choices.


What I noticed in playing the Shardless mirror a bunch is that my opponent was just laying out Visions and letting them come off naturally, and saving Brainstorms when it was relevant to actually dig for action. I'm curious to see if this is, in fact, the right call - just playing another draw 3 that slowly comes down. My problem is that I also need to keep the blue count up. At the moment, I'm at 17 with 3 Forces, which is likely just fine. I might cut a Decay and a land for 2 Strixes to up the removal count as well as the blue count, but we'll see. I might also jam 2 Thoughtseize in the board in place of a Needle and a Null Rod, or nug the second Garruk (which replaced Thrun).

That's usually how you want to handle Visions in Shardless - you're likely to be doing well if the game goes on another 4 tuns, and it's just good to be more mana efficient early on. Strapping Ancestral Recall to Grizzly Bears straight-up is great. Spending U and a card to do it is harder to distinguish from Grey Value Ogre, which isn't great.

I'm surprised that you've opted for 0 Liliana in favor of the third Jace and second Garruk but simultaneously cut countermagic. Even if you aren't comfortable running Counterspell, I've got a real soft spot for Negate in the current meta and there's very little cost to running them in the board.

[Ricardio]

Negate has been very good to me. It does feel good to catch people with it because the whole time they are playing around snare or pierce and you just get them with negate.

[rubblekill]

Hello, I am new in this thread so excuse my ignorance. It seems like a pernicious jace/pw build of bug control isn't played anymore here: why is that? Is it not viable anymore? Enlighten me.

E: Probably this isn't the right thread to ask that question.

[Bobmans]

Hello, I am new in this thread so excuse my ignorance. It seems like a pernicious jace/pw build of bug control isn't played anymore here: why is that? Is it not viable anymore? Enlighten me.

E: Probably this isn't the right thread to ask that question.

Well, i guess your referring to Landstill variant of BUG. I played that beautiful deck for a while, but found that it was to slow. Comparing BUG midrange and NicFit to Pernicious Jace/Landstill i'd say that NicFit has a better manabase to support the mana hungry bombs and BUG Midrange is more efficient and has more tempo.

[rubblekill]

Well, i guess your refurring to Landstill variant of BUG. I played that beautiful deck for a while, but found that it was to slow. Comparing BUG midrange and NicFit to Pernicious Jace i'd say that NicFit has a better manabase to support the mana hungry bombs and BUG Midrange is more efficient and has more tempo.

Thanks for answering. I really want to play a BUG planeswalkers deck that relies on discard and deed/decay; no manlands. Is this the correct thread to ask?

[Ricardio]

Thanks for answering. I really want to play a BUG planeswalkers deck that relies on discard and deed/decay; no manlands. Is this the correct thread to ask?

I believe so. The version Tom and I have been playing are fairly close. His is more in on the jitte/tnn plan whereas mine is more control with mb pw.

I like to think of this thread as BUG but not shardless or delver. So basically anything that doesn't fall into the category of the aforementioned.

[Tom4ik]

I have 2 Tnn and a jitte main as a way to break open the midrange fair decks. Jitte is still a fair mirror breaker and gives this deck another angle of attack against the dnt/elves creature based decks. I do not run a md sweeper right now so that is a cost.

I think deed without vet is a losing cause right now aside from a singleton either md or sb blowout potential. Card is very slow and means you are incentivized to not play DRS which is the best card BUG should play imo. Toxic deluge does a good impersination especially as decay can handle the non creatures parts pretty well.

I have also been on 3 snaps which is another difference I believe from Ricardio who is on clique.

I want to test with Titi at some point too. 3-4 snaps and strix. Probe therapy. Some lily and jace to help board control. Seems an interesting place to start.

[Ricardio]

So you are saying basically drop the green for the most part and make it UB? that could be good.

[Tom4ik]

So you are saying basically drop the green for the most part and make it UB? that could be good.

Pretty much. Keep green for decay. possibly drs (I know it would be a nonbo) but that card is still absurd and having access to 3 mana turn 2 allows for Titi plus spell.

I think any deck that tries to use Ice bro is going to want to be UBx. Red gives bolt but pyro-man isnt the best. White gives stp but decay is better than those in this deck imo.

I dont think this deck is any better than some of our current lists but I am going to brew regardless. If the deck fails meh, back to normal.

My other thought is running some number in the board. I board goyf out in certain matchups and this card would be nice against dnt and elves for sure. I dont like that our big guy gets hit by rip in that match-up. Especially with me on 3 snap RIP is super good. Being able to drop this and block thalia and revoker early and having them never know when you just bounce their board and bash with a 7/8 that doesnt rely on the gy is kind of nice. It would take the place of my massacre that I have run as a 1 of and probably the Thrun that I have there as well. Idk I'd have to really take a look again.

[Ricardio]

Pretty much. Keep green for decay. possibly drs (I know it would be a nonbo) but that card is still absurd and having access to 3 mana turn 2 allows for Titi plus spell.

I think any deck that tries to use Ice bro is going to want to be UBx. Red gives bolt but pyro-man isnt the best. White gives stp but decay is better than those in this deck imo.

I dont think this deck is any better than some of our current lists but I am going to brew regardless. If the deck fails meh, back to normal.

My other thought is running some number in the board. I board goyf out in certain matchups and this card would be nice against dnt and elves for sure. I dont like that our big guy gets hit by rip in that match-up. Especially with me on 3 snap RIP is super good. Being able to drop this and block thalia and revoker early and having them never know when you just bounce their board and bash with a 7/8 that doesnt rely on the gy is kind of nice. It would take the place of my massacre that I have run as a 1 of and probably the Thrun that I have there as well. Idk I'd have to really take a look again.

Hows the testing going? I did 2 prereleases and got promo TITIs both times. might be a sign haha

[Tom4ik]

Hows the testing going? I did 2 prereleases and got promo TITIs both times. might be a sign haha

Unfortunately Modern unbannings have renewed my interest so I havent done any Ice bro testing. I did play a 4 round weekly last night for legacy. 4th round opponent wanted to jet so I drew.

rd 1 Infect
Game 1 - Never saw a removal spell aside from Lily which just ate a glistener elf. Double Agent got me. 2 Stp on goyfs slowed my clock.
Game 2 - Turn 2 Lily uptick eventually just sacced to ulted to get rid of a nexus. Deluge got some value and eventually the turn 1 Drs just did enough.
Game 3- Ts -> Hymn ->Lily at his hand real quick. ended at 9 poison but 2 goyfs closed the game quick. Deluge 3 for 1 meant he ended the game with no resources really. Infect can be tricky but realistically this deck should be fine. waste for nexus and lots of interaction. Agent can be a issue without finding decay.

Rd 2 Storm
Game 1 he mulls to 6 and has a slow hand so Drs and goyf whittle away. He ends up playing a led to get ahead of discard but decay just makes goyf close faster.
Game 2 DRS into back to back Hymms. Therapy takes 2 goyfs but I find 2 forces plus 2 blue cards so he never resolves anything big.

Rd 3 Black n Taxes (Dnt plus Bob and Tidehollow sculler)
Game 1 - Drs into double goyf, Tnn. I have a sylvan library but literally never see a spell so the goyfs never get above 1/2. I cant get a creature into the yard either. He eventually lands jitte on a flyer and ends the game. Pretty ridic library draws. all DRS and land each time...
Game 2 - I go Ctp into Hymn. Hit waste which was big. He scullers to see Kgrip, ptruths and jitte. He takes truths. I topdeck Tnn and play that. He plays revoker on jitte. I pass with grip and he plays crusader. Grip revoker and play equip jitte and he scoops to a Tnn with jitte.
Game 3- Ballsy keeps on both sides. I keep a 1 fetch, waste with double Drs. He goes waste vial. I fetch forest drs. he ticks vial and pass. So with the missed land drop I of course just waste him and decay vial. He puts mom in but over the next 2 turns I get a Tnn, Jitte and Lily. He cant catch up.

So a 3-0 against some fairly stock lists. I am actually a fan of the black and taxes deck. Mom into bob is sweet.

[Ricardio]

Unfortunately Modern unbannings have renewed my interest so I havent done any Ice bro testing. I did play a 4 round weekly last night for legacy. 4th round opponent wanted to jet so I drew.

rd 1 Infect
Game 1 - Never saw a removal spell aside from Lily which just ate a glistener elf. Double Agent got me. 2 Stp on goyfs slowed my clock.
Game 2 - Turn 2 Lily uptick eventually just sacced to ulted to get rid of a nexus. Deluge got some value and eventually the turn 1 Drs just did enough.
Game 3- Ts -> Hymn ->Lily at his hand real quick. ended at 9 poison but 2 goyfs closed the game quick. Deluge 3 for 1 meant he ended the game with no resources really. Infect can be tricky but realistically this deck should be fine. waste for nexus and lots of interaction. Agent can be a issue without finding decay.

Rd 2 Storm
Game 1 he mulls to 6 and has a slow hand so Drs and goyf whittle away. He ends up playing a led to get ahead of discard but decay just makes goyf close faster.
Game 2 DRS into back to back Hymms. Therapy takes 2 goyfs but I find 2 forces plus 2 blue cards so he never resolves anything big.

Rd 3 Black n Taxes (Dnt plus Bob and Tidehollow sculler)
Game 1 - Drs into double goyf, Tnn. I have a sylvan library but literally never see a spell so the goyfs never get above 1/2. I cant get a creature into the yard either. He eventually lands jitte on a flyer and ends the game. Pretty ridic library draws. all DRS and land each time...
Game 2 - I go Ctp into Hymn. Hit waste which was big. He scullers to see Kgrip, ptruths and jitte. He takes truths. I topdeck Tnn and play that. He plays revoker on jitte. I pass with grip and he plays crusader. Grip revoker and play equip jitte and he scoops to a Tnn with jitte.
Game 3- Ballsy keeps on both sides. I keep a 1 fetch, waste with double Drs. He goes waste vial. I fetch forest drs. he ticks vial and pass. So with the missed land drop I of course just waste him and decay vial. He puts mom in but over the next 2 turns I get a Tnn, Jitte and Lily. He cant catch up.

So a 3-0 against some fairly stock lists. I am actually a fan of the black and taxes deck. Mom into bob is sweet.

great results. Ya, oddly enough standard was stale and eldrazi modern so legacy became a main focus but with standard rotation Friday as well as modern shaken of the elcancer and new toys released from they cages, attention has once again been shifted.

What are you playing in modern? (since we are the only people who comment here)

[sdematt]

I may actually play Modern since I can play Thopters. BUG Thopters, perhaps? ;)

[Ricardio]

I may actually play Modern since I can play Thopters. BUG Thopters, perhaps? ;)

What would the green be for? Decay is at its weakest in modern albeit I assume it will gain a bit of strength in the coming weeks. DRS isn't legal and loam doesn't seem especially strong. With thopter/sword as your win con, gy hate is going to be brought in so to diversify you will want to stray from goyf and the like.

[Tom4ik]

ohhh, BUg thopters. I like it! I was looking to play a visions control deck but bug thopters seems real. Decay is big game because hitting plating and other foundries is nice. If I was on the thopter plan I would probably not play goyf. I am not sure a bug visions deck is actually any good but that would be ideal! haha

[tescrin]

What would the green be for? Decay is at its weakest in modern albeit I assume it will gain a bit of strength in the coming weeks. DRS isn't legal and loam doesn't seem especially strong. With thopter/sword as your win con, gy hate is going to be brought in so to diversify you will want to stray from goyf and the like.

Hard to say. Grixis certainly seems better in Modern I'd think as you get your Bolts, so you can do the old Bolt, Snap-Bolt over the game to get to the late game. Then you can do Dismembers as a means to deal with Eldrazi, Goyfs, etc.. Maybe Bitterblossoms to help trigger the Sword if it's offline, and a few artifacts like Ichor Wellspring.

The best shell though is probably affinity and just making it have late game. It has the 1/1s already, it has the artifacts, and Foundry allows you to sac them in response to removal. Making your guys more relevant mid-game with Sword may be alright, and Sword with Ravager isn't the worst (Swing, play a 1/1, in response sac the sword for a +1/+1 counter, sword attaches to the other guy for defense.)

EDIT: That above play is actually pretty insane with even two swords. Sac two, get +2/+2, 1/1 comes in and becomes a 3/5 on D while you can sac Ravager to give him all those counters.

[Jaytron]

I'm surprised that there has been little discussion on this deck. It seems that some variation of BUG Control is going 5-0 in leagues each day.

So you lose Visions/Shardless

But gain Ponder and some number of Dazes? Also get to run TNN and a Jitte in the 75?

[ironclad8690]

It plays a little more smoothly in that you have more control over what you do (cascade is random much of the time etc). You can also very easily "get" people who don't play around daze once they see Strix. These lists exist in the space that is left between Hymn Delver and Shardless on the Aggro -> Control scale (which in my opinion starts with Stifle Delver and ends with Lejay Shardless).

[Jaytron]

It plays a little more smoothly in that you have more control over what you do (cascade is random much of the time etc). You can also very easily "get" people who don't play around daze once they see Strix. These lists exist in the space that is left between Hymn Delver and Shardless on the Aggro -> Control scale (which in my opinion starts with Stifle Delver and ends with Lejay Shardless).

What do you think about the deck in terms of power?

Between Hymn Delver and Shardless

I'm sitting on Hymn Delver now, with cards to build this, Shardless, or to just go back to Grixis Delver.

[ironclad8690]

What do you think about the deck in terms of power?

Between Hymn Delver and Shardless

I'm sitting on Hymn Delver now, with cards to build this, Shardless, or to just go back to Grixis Delver.

To me it feels less powerful than Shardless BUG objectively, but there is something to be said about your opponents not really being able to recognize what you are on.

They don't see TNN game 1? They probably wont board in outs, and TNN is one of the most punishing cards to opponents who aren't prepared.

They might see only X/1s, but then Tarmogoyf kills them with Golgari Charm in their hand.

If I were to make 1 direct comparison I would say this: if you like playing to the stack more but want something more controlling than Delver, play BUG Control. If you want to play to the board rather than the stack, play Shardless.