[Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

[Chhaam]

I would love to get some input on my current list. This is basically a Shardless list that has been ported over to team america after playing against almost exclusively combo for the past few weekends. So far I'm pretty happy with the main board I feel like I may need to pick up a 4th sea and the basics might be a little off. My biggest concern is the sideboard right now, I'm pretty happy with most of it, but the Maelstrom Pulse I'm still very unsure of. So far it has been playing very well against other mid range decks and against lands. Need to get reps in against the combo decks this weekend.

Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
4 True-Name Nemisis
1 Tombstalker

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, The Mind Sculpter

Lands
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard
1 Bitterblossom
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Flusterstorm
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Jace, the Mind Sculpter
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Marsh Casualties
2 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique

Other things I could really use input on:
Should I run TNN?
More Snapcasters?
Bring back goyf?
Hymn?

[LarsLeif]

I don't have time to quote stuff, but I think that it is a mistake to believe you have to choose between Rebs or Decay - the strength of this deck is that it can run both.

And again - you should really consider the mirror implications of the red splash. If you don't splash you will never beat the mirror consistently unless you hedge towards it in other ways (will probably not improve other matchups), if you don't happen to be a much stronger player than the opposition that is.

Tombstalker is also stronger than Gurmag by quite a lot - flying is very good in the meta right now with all the TNNs and stuff.

Kolaghan's Command is one of the key draws to the red splash. That card, plus rebs and bolts/forked bolts are so strong in a bug shell, it covers almost all weaknesses at quite a low cost if you build the mana base correctly.

Anyway, I think the best version is still out there somewhere. I have been thinking about a more reactive shell similar to my adventures with BUGstill (but with more kolaghans command) and it seems I'm not alone with these notions: http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...rol-in-legacy/

[btm10]

Hello, I see that this thread is in the dtb section but what actual version of the deck could be considered as THE standard list right now? :smile:

There really isn't one. Reid Duke-style lists, Delverless Delver lists, BUG and 4c midrange and control all count towards the total for this thread. It's probably best to think of it as "Blue Deathrite Shaman decks (Midrange/Control thread".

I don't have time to quote stuff, but I think that it is a mistake to believe you have to choose between Rebs or Decay - the strength of this deck is that it can run both.

And again - you should really consider the mirror implications of the red splash. If you don't splash you will never beat the mirror consistently unless you hedge towards it in other ways (will probably not improve other matchups), if you don't happen to be a much stronger player than the opposition that is.

Tombstalker is also stronger than Gurmag by quite a lot - flying is very good in the meta right now with all the TNNs and stuff.

Kolaghan's Command is one of the key draws to the red splash. That card, plus rebs and bolts/forked bolts are so strong in a bug shell, it covers almost all weaknesses at quite a low cost if you build the mana base correctly.

Anyway, I think the best version is still out there somewhere. I have been thinking about a more reactive shell similar to my adventures with BUGstill (but with more kolaghans command) and it seems I'm not alone with these notions: http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...rol-in-legacy/

The only thing I disagree with here is the relative value of any particular tech for the mirror; just about any way of going over top of your opponent or punishing them for trying to go over the top is functionally a trump, and you're going to look pretty silly with Kolaghan's Command or REB if their tech is a non-blue Planeswalker, Sylvan Library, Bitterblossom, or Tasigur rather than Jitte, Jace, Misdirection, or Crucible. Moat games in the mirror are going to come down to a mixture of luck and skill, and the way Grixis, 4c, and BUG decks are built is going to push that balance closer to tight play and sound deckbuilding rather than who has better tech. I'm not saying Red is definitely wrong. It definitely adds very powerful effects, I juat don't know if that power is worth giving up basically perfect mana.

[Karhumies]

I'm not saying Red is definitely wrong. It definitely adds very powerful effects, I juat don't know if that power is worth giving up basically perfect mana.

T2 Hymn / Decay / Strix, T3 TNN / Leovold / Liliana / Pulse, T4 Jace can already be difficult enough without throwing a 4th color into the mix. If you get rid of the basics to support the 4th color, you will be losing hard vs. T1 Moon decks unless your splash includes Punishing Fire or Lightning Bolt.

There are a lot of niche cards for the mirror mu to tune the decklist with even without running a 4th color: Marsh Casualties, To the Slaughter, Garruk Relentless, Tasigur, Jitte, Engineered Explosives (vs especially TNN, Leovold, Liliana), Painful Truths, Divert/Misdirection (vs. Hymn, Decay, Vision) etc. which have a wider use than only the mirror MU.

[Manipulato]

I think a red splash for REB/Pyroblast or Kolaghans Command/Ancient Grudge would be a reasonable choice but I really dont want to mess up my manabase because I come from the 4c camp and I am really happy that things like PoP, Blood Moon, Back to Basics or whatever are not GG anymore.

Even most Miracle decks have 2 Blood Moon in there SB which was the only card I lost to regularly. Most of the time I died with gas in hand just because I had no acces to basics, I´m done with that topic.

If someone really wants to improve his BGx MU´s which are heavily skill and draw dependant obv. then I would reccommend the usual cards like Jace TMS, Lili, Garruk, Hymn, Gurmag Angler, Toxic Deluge, SCM, TNN´s and so on.

But to be honest I dont think a red splash is super important or needed because the BUG colors already give us great ways to fight most stuff and the worse mana we get from it is not really worth it.

[anwei]

In Mengucci's article, he says:

You aren’t playing any Wastelands, since the current metagame features way fewer decks that are worth Wastelanding, and again, the mana base can be a issue in 4c decks. I want it to be as consistent as possible.

I'm curious, in 3-color lists, about the relative value of playing 3 or so Wastelands over more spells (probably just playing 18 fetch/dual/basic lands). Comparatively few cards are ever cast off Wasteland, and we're in less of a position to use them to meaningfully delay the development of other decks than Delver lists (especially without Goyf).
Obviously, sometimes you just get them, sometimes it hits crucial cards like Depths or Boseiju, and sometimes it's a very meaningful axis of interaction against combo. But for a value-driven grindy deck like this, I'm not sure Wateland is trading one-for-one if the game is going long enough that most decks can comfortably draw through it.

I'm testing:
--18 Lands--
4 Sea
2 Bayou
1 Trop
1 Island
1 Swamp
9 Fetch

--16 Threats--
4 DRS
3 Strix
3 Snapcater
2 TNN
2 Leovold
1 Tombstalker
1 JTMS

--26 Spells--
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Painful Truths
1 Unearth
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn
3 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay

(FoW Count 25)

[Baum]

Regarding basic lands and Blood Moon: Do two basics really help us? Most lists posted here have pretty heavy color requirements, so even with island/swamp in play, they can't cast stuff like TNN, Tombstalker or Jace.

Against decks like Dragon Stompy, having basic swamp at least allows us to cast DRS to get Decay mana. But against Miracles we can't rely on having a mana dork in play all the time, so Blood Moon kills us anyway. Basics are probably fine in a list without many double blue or black spells. Or we up the basic count to 3-4, but that might lead to a lot of awkward draws.

For now, I just cut the basics and run more duals. It makes the mana base much smoother in the early turns.

[btm10]

Regarding basic lands and Blood Moon: Do two basics really help us? Most lists posted here have pretty heavy color requirements, so even with island/swamp in play, they can't cast stuff like TNN, Tombstalker or Jace.

Against decks like Dragon Stompy, having basic swamp at least allows us to cast DRS to get Decay mana. But against Miracles we can't rely on having a mana dork in play all the time, so Blood Moon kills us anyway. Basics are probably fine in a list without many double blue or black spells. Or we up the basic count to 3-4, but that might lead to a lot of awkward draws.

For now, I just cut the basics and run more duals. It makes the mana base much smoother in the early turns.

If you're in BUG, it's no basics or Island, Island, Swamp, Forest. Nothing in between. I don't think 4c can support basics OR Wastelands.

[Baum]

Yeah, I was talking about BUG. I saw a lot of lists that run just Island/Swamp, which doesn't seem right to me.

[anwei]

I agree that 2 basics isn't beating Blood Moon and more duals avoids some awkward land configurations, but 2 basics doesn't contribute nothing. The deck has a higher curve than many other fair decks of the format, in its removal and relevant threats. Against Delver decks, the ability to only let their Wastelands threaten your 3rd land puts the game on board and severely hinders their ability to play the tempo game, when they can't inhibit a Ponder+Decay turn.
(It's possible that a single basic swamp does this as well, with less downside.)

[theMonster]

I agree that 2 basics isn't beating Blood Moon and more duals avoids some awkward land configurations, but 2 basics doesn't contribute nothing. The deck has a higher curve than many other fair decks of the format, in its removal and relevant threats. Against Delver decks, the ability to only let their Wastelands threaten your 3rd land puts the game on board and severely hinders their ability to play the tempo game, when they can't inhibit a Ponder+Decay turn.
(It's possible that a single basic swamp does this as well, with less downside.)

This. I play Island + Swamp not because I think they're gonna help me win against Blood Moon (though they certainly don't hurt); I want to ensure that I have two lands in play so that I can play a third land and slam a powerful 3-drop. Sure, they can Wasteland the third land, but now I've got something like TNN or Leovold in play, and often the damage is done. And since I play 21 lands (3 Wastelands), I make land drops pretty consistently. Does the occasional Island + Abrupt Decay/Hymn draw come up? Sure, but you have cantrips to mitigate against them. If you're worried about Blood Moon and/or it's popular by you, I guess you could run a Hydroblast in the sideboard and three basics.

Regarding the no-Wasteland idea, I'm not sure I would do that because you want ways to trigger Revolt for Fatal Push. Plus Wasteland makes your Deathrites much better because they enable you to play an early tempo game. Sol lands are still in the format, too, and Wastelanding them out of the game is a big way to beat them. And sometimes there are annoying utility lands that just need to go. I'm considering shaving one, going down to 2, but I haven't tested that yet. If I cut one, I'd almost certainly replace it with the third Ponder.

And I 4-0d another FNM last night, beating DnT twice, Storm, and BUG Delver. This is what I played:

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
1 Tarmogoyf
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Tombstalker

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

2 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Wasteland

// sideboard //

2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
1 Thoughtseize
1 Invasive Surgery
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Dread of Night
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Go for the Throat
1 Painful Truths

I hate Creeping Tar Pit, so immediately after the tournament I sucked it up and bought the fourth Sea. I didn't like the second Clique at all. My next list will probably be -1 Tar Pit // -1 Clique; +1 Sea // +1 ??? (considering Garruk Relentless or Unearth for fair matchups or another combo hate piece - thoughts?)

I'm also unsure about the singleton Goyf. I drew it a couple times last night, and it basically kept an opposing Goyf at bay. Guess that's something. I want a beater for combo matchups that can sometimes cheese out a win. Maybe it should just be a second Tombstalker, though - that card has been insane.

[Karhumies]

I hate Creeping Tar Pit, so immediately after the tournament I sucked it up and bought the fourth Sea. I didn't like the second Clique at all. My next list will probably be -1 Tar Pit // -1 Clique; +1 Sea // +1 ??? (considering Garruk Relentless or Unearth for fair matchups or another combo hate piece - thoughts?

Reanimator veteran here.

Garruk is excellent vs Miracles & Abrupt Decay decks, and at least OK against D&T as well (flyers, Mother of Runes + swords means it's relatively easy for them to kill planeswalkers by attacking, they have Phyrexian Revoker to name it, and Thalia jumps the cost into 5 mana which van be difficult vs a Wasteland + port deck). Which is where I like to be in the current paper metagame. Liliana of the Veil is a decent alternative here because it can kill an opposing TNN (or even Griselbrand/Emrakul, esp. against SnT) by forcing to sacrifice, but cmc3 means it can be dealt with by Abrupt Decay and it's not as good vs Miracles.

If you are considering Unearth, you could also consider running a 1of Reanimate in that slot because you have Thoughtseize and Hymn as well in the list to bin opposing creatures (although no Liliana). Not sure what combo deck exactly you want to combat, but Reanimating an opposing Golgari Grave-Troll as 0/0 can get rid of opposing Bridges vs Dredge, and reanimating an opposing Griselbrand vs. Reanimator or Sneaky Show can be devastating as well. Whereas in other MUs, you can just go for Strix or Snapcaster for Value with the life price of a Thoughtseize. 3 life for TNN and Leovold should not be impossible either since it's only 1of, and you have a Jitte in the 60.

If you have lots of Reanimator in local meta, you could also swap that 1of MD Tarmogoyf into a Scavenging Ooze to improve the MU g1.

[btm10]

I split Top 8 at an EE Satellite event at Top Deck games in NJ today. I was going to play Shardless but audibled to 4c this morning because of the discussions we've been having in this thread and I wanted to test it out. The decklist was imperfect (I apparently forgot to move the 4th Deathrite out of Shardless and miscounted my cards before I left home and cut the 4th Ponder thinking I had 61 cards, so I played match 1 with a 58 card deck) and my matches were...not really representative of the broader meta, but such is life. Only 16 people showed up so I benefitted from solid tiebreakers despite catching some truly awful matchups.

Round 1: Burn (0-2). I drew both Thoughtseizes and the Dismember game 1, and can't find Deathrite or countermagic to stabilize. I almost get there game 2 but I die to Flame Rift + Price of Progress before I can untap with double Deathrite.

Round 2: 2-0 in games played (I got a game loss for my deck registration error). This match was great. Game 1 I kill everything he plays and stabilize with Jace. Game 2 was extremely close: he wasted all 3 of my Seas, leaving Liliana rotting in my hand for about a dozen turns, forcing me to repeatedly bounce his Gurmag Angler with Jace while frantically producing chump blockers at 1 life and holding up increasingly narrow removal. Once I find a Deathrite, Liliana stabilizes the board and Jace fateseals for the win.

Round 3: Miracles This was a pure control mirror. Game 1 his draw was long on Counterbalances, but Decay, Snapcaster Mage, and my interaction wall keep that in check while anemic value creatures hemmed his Jace in and protected mine. He scoops after countering a Clique on his own end step and me having Kolaghan's Command to get it back and strip his last card. Game 2 played out similarly, but his draw never really came together after an early Thoughtseize left him with a grip full of nonsense. Command might have even been better than REB in this matchup.

Round 4: Jund Sneak Fit (0-2). Game 1 he peels a Grove to get back a Punishing Fire I Thoughtseized on turn 1 and I never get any offense started. I die to two P.Fires against hand of creature removal. Game 2 I Surgical his Fires early and have him dead over two turns with Clique + double Strix, then he wrecks me with multiple Therapys into Fierce Empath into hardcast Inferno Titan in a single turn.

In short: the blue matchups felt great, but non-interactive/linear decks felt predictably awful. D&T is probably not great but totally winnable. I ran:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Baleful Strix
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Tombstalker

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Ponder
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtseize
2 Counterspell
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Fatal Push
1 Dismember
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Kolaghan's Command

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil

4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
1 Island (added to make my deck 60 cards)

Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Thoughtseize
1 Fatal Push
1 Golgari Charm
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Pithing Needle
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Dread of Night

I'm​ probably going to cut the Island again for more generic interaction (Thoughtseize or Spell Pierce?), but the deck felt great. I did miss the idea of having Wasteland, but I never wanted for mana. 3 Ponder seemed right even though it was an accident. I'd also like another piece of interaction for the board, since combo seems like it would be slightly unfavorable for the list as it is currently put together. I don't think this is clearly better or worse than BUG.

[ESG]

I split Top 8 at an EE Satellite event at Top Deck games in NJ today.
...
Only 16 people showed up so I benefitted from solid tiebreakers despite catching some truly awful matchups.

All things considered, 2-2 is a pretty mediocre record and wouldn't give me confidence in a deck. Why was there even a Top 8 in a 16-player event? Wouldn't cutting to Top 4 have made more sense?

Also, what did you face in Round 2? Grixis Delver?

[LarsLeif]

T2 Hymn / Decay / Strix, T3 TNN / Leovold / Liliana / Pulse, T4 Jace can already be difficult enough without throwing a 4th color into the mix. If you get rid of the basics to support the 4th color, you will be losing hard vs. T1 Moon decks unless your splash includes Punishing Fire or Lightning Bolt.

There are a lot of niche cards for the mirror mu to tune the decklist with even without running a 4th color: Marsh Casualties, To the Slaughter, Garruk Relentless, Tasigur, Jitte, Engineered Explosives (vs especially TNN, Leovold, Liliana), Painful Truths, Divert/Misdirection (vs. Hymn, Decay, Vision) etc. which have a wider use than only the mirror MU.

Having two basics still means you lose to all T1 Moons where you don't have them in your opener (about 80% of the time or so).

Yes - you can add cards for the mirror, but REBs are so much better in other matchups too. They are good vs almost all blue decks, be it the mirror, delver, miracles or combo. Very few other cards are as versatile, and all of the cards you mentioned can be played in 4c as well.

[btm10]

All things considered, 2-2 is a pretty mediocre record and wouldn't give me confidence in a deck. Why was there even a Top 8 in a 16-player event? Wouldn't cutting to Top 4 have made more sense?

Also, what did you face in Round 2? Grixis Delver?

I agree on both points, but I'm taking this as more of a proof of concept thing than some ringing endorsement of the deck. Neither Burn nor Nic Fit should be particularly workable matchups for fair blue decks, but neither is a significant chunk of the meta. On the other hand, Miracles and BUG Delver both felt great, and aside from D&T and combo, that's what I care about. I'm not attracted to decks that will reliably beat fringe decks or Burn, so while 2-2 is an awful record, 4-0 in games played against decks I should be competitive with is enough for me to say that I'm reasonably happy with the shell as a starting point.

The event did cut to top 8, which I assume was due to the mandated prize structure.

[ChrisDissent]

Hi !

I know it'll look like industrial espionage but I was wondering what decks are problematic MUs for BUG at the moment, as my meta have been overrun by this deck lately.

Thanks for your answers and sorry for my English.

[LarsLeif]

Hi !

I know it'll look like industrial espionage but I was wondering what decks are problematic MUs for BUG at the moment, as my meta have been overrun by this deck lately.

Thanks for your answers and sorry for my English.

Depends very much on the version of the deck - delver, shardless, control or midrange.

[ChrisDissent]

Hi LarsLeif and thanks for your answer.
I'm new to Legacy so I may not distinguish very well the differents version of the deck, but I would say midrange (not Delver, not Shardless).
What I'm facing usually is a Liliana wrecking the board state and TNNs stalling and go for lethal when the board is clear.

I feel like BUG is good against a lot of decks, especially the ones I usually play (Eldrazi mostly), and to get out of this the only solution is playing Burn, which may be good here, but terrible against others top tiers like Miracles or SneakShow.

[iostream]

Hi LarsLeif and thanks for your answer.
I'm new to Legacy so I may not distinguish very well the differents version of the deck, but I would say midrange (not Delver, not Shardless).
What I'm facing usually is a Liliana wrecking the board state and TNNs stalling and go for lethal when the board is clear.

I feel like BUG is good against a lot of decks, especially the ones I usually play (Eldrazi mostly), and to get out of this the only solution is playing Burn, which may be good here, but terrible against others top tiers like Miracles or SneakShow.

Midrange BUG decks in Legacy have the typical property that makes people attracted to midrange decks; they don't have a ton of unwinnable matchups. It's very hard to build a deck that just beats the shit out of BUG without conceding a lot to the rest of the format.

That being said, like many midrange decks that shave early interaction for superior late game cards, fast combo can be an issue. Reanimator (either UB or BR) is not a great matchup, especially given that most BUG pilots are cheating on sideboard graveyard hate a little, and since both of those decks have the tools to get around or underneath Deathrite Shaman. Reanimator also has the nice property that it is solidly favored versus Sneak/Show and has a somewhat unfavorable (i.e. not unwinnable) matchup against Miracles, which you mentioned as key concerns.