To be honest, I don't think Marco and I now each other that well, we simply are from the same country and used to contribute to an Italian legacy forum; and if you could post your list, all the thread could benefit.
I don't have much further advice or tournament experience to report: for now I'd change only something in sideboard.
I'm curious about the performance of 4 ponders (and 20 lands). I'm often afraid that even 21 land is one too few. As for the ponders, I often find that I would want a sorcery in my graveyard for tarmogoyf size (in particular vs Eldrazi); on the other hand, I don't want to cantrip too much without action because I'm afraid of going behind on tempo if I can't play a second spell the same turn.
You can read my report here http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...Thread)/page64Originally Posted by talpa
My current list looks like this
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Painful Truths
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
Sideboard
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Thoughtseize
1 Hymn to Tourach
FoW Count 21
But dont take every slot to serious because I'm changing the lists daily and still work on the perfect 75. Nothing is set in stone.
With a similar list I lost to Elves & burn at my last local event. Won vs BR Reanimator, Elves & NicFit...
I try to replace the 2 Jaces with 2 Painful Truths just because of the clunkyness & the full 4 REB/Pyroblast of current european Miracles lists. I replaced the MD Jitte with the 1off Maelstrom Pulse because Jitte supriceingly had not the impact I was hoping for mostly because of the lower creature count especially in sideboard games. Pulse was great so far and can get rid of things like Batterskull, Jace or Delve creatures game 1.
I really would like to play 3 TNN in this list but I dont want to up the cc3 count more because it's already quite high.
I was really unimpressed with Tarmogoyf outside of true combo MU's. When I lower the TNN count I really want a beater which is not that easy to kill and always has 5/5 even if Ooze or Shamans hit the table afterwards. I give up the clock vs combo here for sure but I have to see how it works out, still in progress.
Currently playingEldrazi
Thank you for sharing. I saw some similar list online, don't know if someone is yours; I like them, but I prefer to have some more late game bomb like Garruk.
I agree with almost all you said. Tarmogoyf shines mostly in the combo matchup. I am not so sure about Angler, though, considering also jace unsummon effect and the fact that you could be unable to deploy it fast when needed.
I also agree with the fragility of Jace vs REB effects. But he does his work also against non-red decks, and until now I haven't been hit too hard for that. I side in some surgical effect against Miracle, so sometimes I was able to extirpate some copy of REB (which went previously on something like leovold or strix). Some other times, I let them destroy it after some turn of brainstorming, when it already had an impact on the game, only for dropping the second copy soon afterwards. Maybe I was lucky, I don't have so many miracle matches under the belt. For sure, Garruk shines there.
Just one thing on the sideboard: I am really liking Invasive Surgery over Flusterstorm. Even without delirium, it's really useful against Terminus and Entreat. And on the combo matchup, I can't think of a frequent scenario where what I want to counter is not a sorcery or I really need the storm effect.
I'll keep testing, and reading here ;)
@talpa - I'll respond to your other post when I'm not at work and have more time to write.
I've gotten pretty close to Manipulato's list as well. I'm not running Hymn (I'm running a third Thoughtseize and a Counterspell), and I think that Tombstalker is just better than Angler if the BB isn't an issue. Opposing Anglers were actually the biggest problem I had during testing, and as a result I've added a Dismember to the maindeck. I'm still on 2 Jace rather than MD Truths because I'm taking a more controlling approach and want the more powerful late game, and my sideboard strategy against Miracles is different as a result (running a Flusterstorm, which I'm ordinarily not a fan of, and bringing in an extra Snapcaster Mage and the fourth Thoughtseize). My solution to the glut of 3-drops has been to just add a one-of Hierarch; I'm not sure if this is better or worse than just playing Reid Duke's list, but it's the best way to minimize clunky draws without cutting the powerful 3-drops. I'm honestly less impressed with Leovold than I am with any other MD card, but I'm not ready to cut him.
Creature (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Baleful Strix
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Tombstalker
Interaction (16)
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
1 Dismember
1 Fatal Push
1 Counterspell
1 Spell Pierce
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Draw/Manipulation (7)
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
Planeswalker (2)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Land (21)
9 Fetch
3 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
Sideboard (15)
3 Graveyard hate (either 3 Surgical or 3 Leyline, on the fence still)
1 Thoughtseize
1 Flusterstorm
1 Counterspell
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Painful Truths
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Dread of Night
1 Fatal Push
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Spell Pierce(?)
1 Pithing Needle
The Pierce might be better as a Pithing Needle, but other than that I'm pretty set on the sideboard.
I've had minimal time for testing lately, but have been thinking about these decks a fair amount and am about to start preparing for several upcoming events.
I expected that the rise of BUG, upswing in TNN, and gradual return of Sneak/Show would lead to more midrange BUG decks splashing red (for blast) than I have seen.
Have others tried this and found it wanting? Or am I overestimating the prevalence of BUG, etc. in the meta? Particularly in decks with 0 Goyf and 0 Hierarch, where green is only supporting 2-3 Decay, Leovold, and DRS activations, it doesn't seem too bad to fit 2 R/x duals.
Edit: I saw LarsLeif list here, but no real discussion.
I played against a Hierarch list splashing red today on Cockatrice that maindecked Bolts. I ended up winning 2-1, but my opponent's list seemed sweet. A part of me wanted to try a red splash even for things like Kolaghan's Command, which could recur deceased TNNs, create valuable Snapcaster loops, destroy Batterskull, and provide all kinds of other utility. Granted it's another 3-drop, but I've played with it when I was running 4C Delver, and it did some powerful things.
Regarding the permission suite discussion, I've been running this:
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
// sideboard //
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize
1 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Spell Pierce
1 Vendilion Clique
I wanted to test Snare and have found it lacking. I might just move the Pierce to the maindeck instead and replace the Snare slot with something else (or just move it to the side for things like BR Reanimator).
For a red splash, how many Blast effects would y'all play?
Probably 2, but what would you cut for them? Probably Flusterstorm and...?
Versus a diverse metagame, 2 blasts in SB has been a nice number. Opposing Wastelands, Moon effects, Rishadan Port and Price of Progress are likely to punish a 4 color manabase in a wide open metagame more than you gain by splashing, though.
However, for a small well-known local metagame with loads of blue, I might consider dropping green for red altogether. Gives you options such as Vexing Shusher, Chandra, Torch of Defiance, Young Pyromancer, Kozilek's Command, Keranos, God of Storms and Jaya Ballard, Task Mage. Against greedy manabases in a small local meta, red stompy with 8 md moon effects can also stomp out a 4-0 finish. The recent spike in BUG and 4c popularity has really turned that deck into a ferocious tier1 meta killer IMO.
As for anti TNN cards in a BUG shell without sacrificing too many SB slots: Engineered Plague (also useful vs. D&T), Golgari Charm, To the Slaughter.
I think Decay is probably better than Pyroblast, if forced to pick.
But, Pyroblast has so much value against the most popular fair decks (where addressing their biggest threats on the stack is a big deal, but FoW is not ideal).
I don't think the dual commitment is that significant against the nonbasic hate. If you're not heavy on green, you can probably pick unnecessary green duals, 3+ basics, tar pit, 4th wasteland, or you can splash red: 3 Sea, 2 G/x dual, 2 R/x dual, Island, Swamp, 3 Wasteland, 9 fetches. (Picking the duals is actually kind of tough, depends on whether playing K Command, Hymn, etc.)
I actually think this deck is already pretty robust against the format's key REB-able threats. TNN and Leovold cover Jace, and Thoughtseize, Liliana of the Veil, Diabolic Edict, and a bevy of -1/-1 effects kill True-Name. Beyond that, it's Leovold (who's annoying to kill with a removal spell, but you'll seldom lose because of it) and Ancestral Vision, and being reactive to the point of wanting REBs in that matchup isn't a great plan.
This is why I haven't yet tried the red splash. I've been beating builds with and without Hierarch, Delver, even Shardless and Landstill. I'm also playing a maindeck Marsh Casualties and a sideboard Edict and Deluge (which I like better than the second Casualties because something you need to sweep someone's X/2s or are cut off of), which make TNN more manageable. Casualties has been great, by the way, though I see a lot of DnT around me. I like that it also helps Elves, T1 Empty the Warrens, and sometimes Grixis.
I'm considering the red splash not only for Blasts but also Bolts. I wonder if, with Snapcaster, Bolts make TNN races easier to win. There are pros and cons to Bolts versus Pushes, of course, but at least Bolt is never actually dead (and kills that pesky Mirran Crusader). I take it they'll be killing Deathrites more than going upstairs, though, which makes me want to keep my mana consistent and just play three colors.
Thoughts?
Yeah, I think the mana considerations outweigh any added utility you'd get from Bolt, and I'd add an MD Dismember before I added Bolt or a second MD Push.
After playing with some different mana configurations, it's clear that it does punish the mana-base more than I'd originally thought. Badlands is not great, and Catacombs can't fetch Volcanic, which pushes you deeper into only U/x duals and away from reliably having Swamp.
It might still be good. I'm hesitant to be confident against "builds with and without Hierarch, Delver, even Shardless and Landstill", since at a certain point, the mirror is the mirror, breaking the mirror is good, and I think pyroblast is a reasonable card for doing that. (Though, I concede that it's not amazing at it, and it's obviously more time-circumstantial than Marsh Casualties, etc.)
For those who play basics: how are you enjoying them? It seems unnecessary to me, especially if you're running Hierarchs, since the mana dorks make Wasteland a little worse against you, and since things like Blood Moon are not so prevalent in the general metagame right now.
Hey guys! I saw some of the discussion on Team America with a red splash and I've been playing with a 4c BUG control build for a while to some decent success. I got 3rd in a 102 person EE Platinum event two weeks ago (good for 1 bye to EE6 an an MP Unlimited Tundra), and narrowly lost a win-and-in for top 8 at a Silver event this weekend (flooded hard -- 5 lands in a row, no cantrips -- against Miracles when we were both topdecking (he didn't have Top either).
I had a really intense 25 min feature match game against Eldrazi in round 4 of the Platinum event where I had to overcome an Ulamog and a Blinkmoth wearing a Batterskull, resulting in me needing to do nearly 40 damage over the game to win. (I also got blown out by Divert on camera in the semis after aggressively fetching basics against BUG Delver, but we won't talk about that...)
Also doing decently on MTGO; I haven't 5-0'd yet, but I haven't had a losing record either.
Current list:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Vendilion Clique
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Thoughtseize
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Murderous Cut
1 Painful Truths
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Spell Snare
1 Sylvan Library
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Taiga
1 Swamp
SB:
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
1 Forest
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Toxic Deluge
I made some small changes that I've been 3-0 online with since my paper results. I was previously running 3 Volc, 1 Bayou, 1 Trop (due to only owning 1 Trop), but I bought a second one so I can change the manabase to something where all my fetches can always find a basic or a red source (previously, Verdant Catacombs couldn't find red; Scalding Tarn can only find basic Island). I also cut a single Inquisition of Kozilek for a Sylvan Library. Not sure yet if I prefer the third discard spell or the additional filtering, but it seems correct.
I usually like to play a more controlling role, which explains the lighter density of threats as well as the 4x Baleful Strix, 2x Counterspell, Snapcaster package, and no Wasteland. It seems like most of my opponents don't really know what to put me on; by virtue of playing BUG colors, you make them fear Wasteland (and to a lesser extent, Daze/Stifle), without having a single copy of any of them in the deck! I consciously avoided Fatal Push, since there is a movement based on playing around the card. I still can't hit shroud threats like Mongoose or TNN with removal, but Cut can handle any delve threat that comes along. Strix is great against delve creatures and Mongoose too. Edicts in the sideboard come in for any of those hard-to-kill threats; it generally seems like people are very unprepared for that sort of removal.
Basic Forest is in the board so I can cast Abrupt Decay against Blood Moon/B2B decks. I don't really need a basic Mountain in those cases, so I don't have one in the deck. Smart fetching is usually enough to beat Wastelands, so I'm not worried about that either. Liliana has been great so far. It's a great value engine (Brainstorm and then -2 away the bad cards, while getting a Snap or Strix back, feels fantastic) and it's another threat that needs to be answered against a long, grindy deck. The only cards in the sideboard I haven't been impressed with are Deluge and Surgical. The latter is most likely because I haven't played against many graveyard synergy decks, which is just luck, I guess. The Deluge, though, has felt subpar every time I've drawn it, and I think I've cast it maybe once? I still want some sort of effect that kills True-Names, so I'm thinking about swapping it out for a Marsh Casualties.
The other thing I've been considering is swapping a maindeck Force for a Misdirection. Not something I really want to test out online (card is 35 tix still...), but I picked one up in paper to give it a shot. Misdirecting a spell that was originally targeted at Leo seems really dirty.
It's a mostly-free hedge against Blood Moon, though the mix of basics you want is going to vary based on how you're building the deck. The mana dorks go a long way toward making the basics less awkward.
Divert is pretty old tech for BUG-heavy metagames, so seeing more Deflection effects doesn't surprise me (though I definitely would've been blown out by it too). The list is interesting, but I'm not sure what your list is trying to do/what it gains from being 4 color. A friend of mine and I were testing a similar list last night and I walked away from our session wondering the same thing.
I would not even consider divert if i am not runninh 4 stifles 4 wastelands
That's fine, but nonetheless, it was (and is) a solid piece of tech for matchups where swingy card advantage spells and uncounterable removal are the defining features.
Hello, I see that this thread is in the dtb section but what actual version of the deck could be considered as THE standard list right now?
I assume this is in DTB because of Reid Duke's "Noble BUG" build with Noble Hierarch and 4 TNN. That's the version that's been putting up the results lately. Although it seems like the meta has adjust a lot to TNN and I personally am a fan of the lists people have been posting recently that aren't so all-in on it.Hello, I see that this thread is in the dtb section but what actual version of the deck could be considered as THE standard list right now?
Nobody plays Legacy anymore, the tournaments are all too crowded
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