[Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

[Razorwynd]

I'm currently very torn between Control and Delver BUG variants, and have been bouncing between them. I think Sylvan Library is excellent and currently run one main, one board; I'm strongly considering making room for a second one main to draw it more often. The downside is that running more than one Library really drives you to run 9-10 fetchlands so that you get maximum utility out of it, and especially so you can throw the second one away effectively without discarding it to Liliana. I'm currently running two basics (one swamp, one flex depending on what I expect) and 4 Delta, 4 Catacombs in addition to the "normal" dual package of 4 Sea, 2 Trop, 1 Bayou and am very happy with them in my delver-heavy meta. They also let you steal games from decks like Painter and Death and Taxes that you otherwise would just lose to Blood Moon, Wasteland, and Port.

Also, I've been testing maindeck Counterspell and the 4th MD Force in place of non-Thoughtseize discard and have been very happy with it, especially against Miracles.

The changes you mention are all things that I can get behind…and are probably very meta-dependent. The few slots I am not sure about in akatsuki's list are the 1 of ponder (Sylvan instead) and maybe the 1-of IoK. Everything else seems smooth.

I guess it would be interesting to get thoughts about Perish vs Toxic Deluge vs Deed in the board.

[btm10]

I think you're right that the control/disruption package is very meta-dependent. Sylvan is probably just good in general, though.

To your question, I personally like Deluge. We've got Maelstrom Pulse to handle things like Planeswalkers that don't die to Abrupt Decay, and Deed potentially destroys a lot of our permanents (Sylvan, TNN, etc.) in the destruction process. My only beef with Perish is how narrow it is relative to the other options, basically only killing Goyfs and Deathrites while being an Elves hoser. Deluge is just as good vs. Elves as Perish is, but it also kills everything in the format other than Marit Lage.

[btm10]

Sorry to double post, but I took BUG Control to SCG Cincinnati, going 4-0 in the Open Trial against ANT (2-1), RUG (2-1), RUG (2-1), and Miracles (2-0) before posting a less than stellar 3-4 drop in the main event. I violently punted my round 1 match against Shardless BUG (won game 1, then miscounted the toughness of a Tarmogoyf on what should've been a 4-for-1 Toxic Deluge), then lost to Sneak and Show (1-2), beat Dredge, Reanimator, and Miracles (2-1, 2-0, 2-0), before falling to Imperial Painter (0-2) and Dredge again (0-2). I'll post a full report if people are interested, but this is the list that I ran:

Land (23)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Wasteland
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Island

Creatures (11)

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Baleful Strix
1 Vendillion Clique

Planeswalkers (5)
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Instants, Sorceries, and Enchantments (21)
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Thoughtseize
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Spell Pierce
1 Sylvan Library

Sideboard
2 Null Rod
2 Dread of Night
2 Flusterstorm
2 Marsh Casualties (Open)/2 Golgari Charm (Trial)
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Krosan Grip
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Zur's Weirding
1 Extirpate

The basics, Sylvan Library, and maindeck vanilla Counterspell were excellent. I fetched Bayou a grand total of three times the entire weekend, and I will probably replace it with a Forest, which would've won me game 1 against Painter. The Spell Pierce was good, but the information from Thoughtseize #4 might be better. The deck is fantastic, and extremely well positioned right now. My combo results are a little misleading, because in combo games I lost this weekend, I was killed (or effectively killed) on turn 2 in all but 1 of them; my results are probably not representative of the decks' performance against combo in general.

[wcm8]

edit: still tweaking the list.

[btm10]

I think you're missing the fine distinctions between BUG Delver, Shardless BUG, and BUG Control. In a land-heavy deck, especially one that wants to get out of the early game, Daze is bad, because you're setting yourself back on board, and when you're running more than the minimum number of lands you effectively end up casting Daze for a land drop instead of 1U. That's fine for a Delver strategy that is running 18-19 lands and threats that close the game out quickly. A control list wants to develop the game, let DRS feed on graveyards (which synergizes poorly with Tarmogoyf), and make its first 5-6 land drops so it can play Jace and Liliana while still defending itself, and to use disruption in parallel with Tar Pit. The Pimus Phan-style lists that have put up results recently have run True-Name Nemesis as their main win condition because it's excellent as a blocker, an evasive threat, and extremely hard to remove. Goyf dies to Decay and Swords and isn't evasive, and my testing with Tombstalker suggested that it's too easily removed as well as being too slow against fast decks. I'm also very troubled by your lack of non-Decay, non-Liliana removal. It seems like you will be very soft to fair decks.

[wcm8]

I think you're missing the fine distinctions between BUG Delver, Shardless BUG, and BUG Control. In a land-heavy deck, especially one that wants to get out of the early game, Daze is bad, because you're setting yourself back on board, and when you're running more than the minimum number of lands you effectively end up casting Daze for a land drop instead of 1U. That's fine for a Delver strategy that is running 18-19 lands and threats that close the game out quickly. A control list wants to develop the game, let DRS feed on graveyards (which synergizes poorly with Tarmogoyf), and make its first 5-6 land drops so it can play Jace and Liliana while still defending itself, and to use disruption in parallel with Tar Pit. The Pimus Phan-style lists that have put up results recently have run True-Name Nemesis as their main win condition because it's excellent as a blocker, an evasive threat, and extremely hard to remove. Goyf dies to Decay and Swords and isn't evasive, and my testing with Tombstalker suggested that it's too easily removed as well as being too slow against fast decks. I'm also very troubled by your lack of non-Decay, non-Liliana removal. It seems like you will be very soft to fair decks.

I am well aware of the "fine distinctions" between BUG lists, as I've been playing BUG variants pretty much since I got serious about Legacy years and years ago.

My argument is that TA simply *doesn't* close out games quickly -- it doesn't run Bolt, it doesn't run Mongoose, and it doesn't run Spell Pierce to protect its threats. Of all Delver strategies, TA is closest to a midrange style deck, and so the list I am positing is simply dropping the Delver angle entirely and just incorporating the "good" elements of the Tempo plan with the BUG control shell.

The primary difference with the list I posted and Lejay's BUG Cascade deck is:

-4 Shardless Agent
-4 Ancestral Vision
+4 Ponder
+4 Daze

Now there are a few other minor tweaks, but this is basically the gist of it. For explanations for all of the other choices, I would encourage you to read Lejay's own posts on the BUG Cascade thread.

I think that the BUG control shell is strong enough to beat 'fair' decks that the card advantage element provided by Agent and Visions is really just "win more", and can instead be dropped for Ponder and Daze. These increase the strength of the deck in the early turns -- which is where BUG Cascade is often weakest, especially if you don't manage to land a turn 1 DRS. Ponder makes it so you won't stumble on lands in the early game, and can help sequence your upcoming turns -- compare that to AV, which is incredibly slow outside of turn 1 or cascading into it. Daze helps force through your own threats/bombs, and makes you less of an easy target to combo decks. Setting yourself back a turn is hardly a big deal when you have inevitability against a lot of decks.

[btm10]

Your arguments, especially that Daze somehow gives you inevitability against anything, are awful What you've done is propose a middle-ground BUG list that's just a bad version of Shardless because it isn't as explosive, a bad version of Delver because it doesn't run Delver, and a bad version of control because it exacerbates its tempo problems with a 'free' counterspell that it can't capitalize on quickly because the deck isn't designed to do anything quickly.

Also, UWR Delver is almost certainty a slower Delver variant than BUG Delver.

[wcm8]

Your arguments, especially that Daze somehow gives you inevitability against anything, are awful What you've done is propose a middle-ground BUG list that's just a bad version of Shardless because it isn't as explosive, a bad version of Delver because it doesn't run Delver, and a bad version of control because it exacerbates its tempo problems with a 'free' counterspell that it can't capitalize on quickly because the deck isn't designed to do anything quickly.

Also, UWR Delver is almost certainty a slower Delver variant than BUG Delver.

The argument *isn't* that Daze itself provides inevitability, it's that the combination of Abrupt Decay, Toxic Deluge, and Liliana of the Veil do. Few decks in Legacy can beat this combination of removal, and the sideboard deals with just about everything else. I really see no need to defend the remaining card choices, because the proof is provided via Lejay's performance at BoM this past weekend. My argument is simply that the BUG Cascade shell is powerful *in spite* of running clunky cards like Vision/Agent, not solely because of them.

Daze simply helps you to survive to the point of the game where you can effectively resolve those spells, and Ponder likewise helps you draw into lands/threats/answers as needed (compared to twiddling your thumbs while a Vision ticks down). The problem with BUG Cascade is that it's not *always* laying down a Vision on Turn 1 or cascading into it. Also, FoW aside Cascade has no way of interacting with the stack which leaves it vulnerable in the early game. Ponder and Daze help patch up these problems.

[Barbed Blightning]

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckd...p?DeckID=68893

Any thoughts on this?

[btm10]

I actually think that BUG Control is extraordinarily well positioned right now. I've changed my list a little bit from what's posted above, mostly the sideboard, but I did drop the MD Spell Pierce for the fourth Thoughtseize. I don't like Inquisition of Kozilek in Wise's main deck over Counterspell or Hymn to Tourach, and think that not running at least some basics is wrong. As a matter of personal preference, I like Sylvan Library over the third Jace, and would even like to find room for a second in my list because of how powerful it is in so many matchups.

[anwei]

I played a similar list the other night and went 4-1. Was underwhelmed by TNN, especially when bringing in 2 Golgari Charm and a Toxic Deluge, which I would love to play maindeck. There's one list on TC Decks that's more of a hybrid with the Agent decks (but no Agent), running 3 Goyf. Not sure I like Snapcaster, but 4 DRS, 3 Goyf, 3 Strix, 2 TNN, 1 Clique is what I'd try next (with 1-2 maindeck Deluge and probably Library over 3rd Jace).

[btm10]

The thing I like about TNN is how it fulfills the Morphling role of pivoting quickly between unstoppable threat to brick wall. If I'm killing everything with Deluge, I don't care if I take a single TNN with their board. I tested Goyf once and didn't like it at all - it dies to Swords and Decay, it isn't evasive, and it doesn't pitch to Force. Having slightly easier color requirements and being a faster clock doesn't make up for that.

I have been meaning to test a 1-of Tombstalker, because he fulfills the fast clock and surviving Deluge roles while also being evasive and not Decay-able. I actually like the Snapcasters, and will have to test them.

[anwei]

The thing I like about TNN is how it fulfills the Morphling role of pivoting quickly between unstoppable threat to brick wall. If I'm killing everything with Deluge, I don't care if I take a single TNN with their board. I tested Goyf once and didn't like it at all - it dies to Swords and Decay, it isn't evasive, and it doesn't pitch to Force. Having slightly easier color requirements and being a faster clock doesn't make up for that.

I have been meaning to test a 1-of Tombstalker, because he fulfills the fast clock and surviving Delugenroles while also being evasive and not Decay-able. I actually like the Snapcasters, and will have to test them.

These all could be fantastic points - I spent a few hours perusing decklists and playing with numbers, sleeved it up, and played against 2x Enchantress, MUD, Reanimator, and Death and Taxes (where I couldn't find a land for anything) - so not a lot of big TNN business between them; the matches all came down to other things.

[btm10]

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckd...p?DeckID=68893

Any thoughts on this?

So what were your thoughts? I know you play BUG Delver (or at least are active in that thread), so I'm interested as to what you think. I'd also like see what you think about Rich Shay's BUG Delver list.

Also, to anwei - I think your matchups may have something to do with your feelings on TNN. What do you think about counterspells vs. discard? I think that's the biggest question in building BUG Control right now, so I'd like to know what several people think, especially those that have done well with the deck recently. I've gone with the all-discard plan, with both 4 Thoughtseize, 2 Hymn and 4 TS, 2 Inquisition, and was underwhelmed each time. I'm currently back on 4 TS, 2 Counterspell, which just feels better.

[Barbed Blightning]

Personally I find it decent, but I think lacks the power of more explosive styles of play (BUG Walkers or Shardless BUG for example). My current attraction to BUG Delver comes from the inclusion of Delver and Daze to seriously pressure your opponents early and Hymn's haymaker-power level.

My issue with the list here is that, aside from Jace + Lilly, it has no outstanding "deal with this or I win" cards for the fair grindy decks. Yeah, there is TNN, but I think most of us have come to the conclusion that he isn't so scary without equipment. I agree that he is fantastic at protecting Walkers, and I believe the morphling comparison is quite astute, but he's not as game-turning as deed, fast as Goyf or as powerful as Agent into what have you.

Right now I am curious about the BUG/Veteran Walkers deck. It plays some cards that NicFit does but I would not consider it a NicFit deck at all. Anyone here playing with the idea?

EDIT: Here's a goofy/cool list with a red splash for Nicol Bolas. There are more "serious" lists I am sure. http://www.gatheringmagic.com/inside...teran-walkers/

(Sent from my phone, please ignore typos and grammar errors)

[anwei]

Also, to anwei - I think your matchups may have something to do with your feelings on TNN. What do you think about counterspells vs. discard? I think that's the biggest question in building BUG Control right now, so I'd like to know what several people think, especially those that have done well with the deck recently. I've gone with the all-discard plan, with both 4 Thoughtseize, 2 Hymn and 4 TS, 2 Inquisition, and was underwhelmed each time. I'm currently back on 4 TS, 2 Counterspell, which just feels better.

For sure those matches do affect my view of TNN.

I like the discard, am currently on 4 Thoughtseize, 1 Hymn, 4 FoW. There's a lot of stuff to tap out for at many points in the game: planeswalkers, sorcery-speed 3-mana removal, tar pit activation. I like not holding up counterspell in the mid-game.

[btm10]

Personally I find it decent, but I think lacks the power of more explosive styles of play (BUG Walkers or Shardless BUG for example). My current attraction to BUG Delver comes from the inclusion of Delver and Daze to seriously pressure your opponents early and Hymn's haymaker-power level.

My issue with the list here is that, aside from Jace + Lilly, it has no outstanding "deal with this or I win" cards for the fair grindy decks. Yeah, there is TNN, but I think most of us have come to the conclusion that he isn't so scary without equipment. I agree that he is fantastic at protecting Walkers, and I believe the morphling comparison is quite astute, but he's not as game-turning as deed, fast as Goyf or as powerful as Agent into what have you.

Right now I am curious about the BUG/Veteran Walkers deck. It plays some cards that NicFit does but I would not consider it a NicFit deck at all. Anyone here playing with the idea?

EDIT: Here's a goofy/cool list with a red splash for Nicol Bolas. There are more "serious" lists I am sure. http://www.gatheringmagic.com/inside...teran-walkers/

(Sent from my phone, please ignore typos and grammar errors)

I playtested McDarby's Veteran Walkers briefly online and wasn't impressed with how it handled. It's extremely powerful against non-combo decks but just seems worse overall than Shardless because it's weaker against combo since it can't apply as much pressure. Of the three controlling/midrangey BUG variants I'd put the Explorer lists as the least powerful overall even though they're the best against midrange. If you want to run Deed in BUG Control, it's quite easy - my current sideboard has 2 because I've run into a lot of Merfolk and Death and Taxes at locals recently, and they're great in those matchups. Other than that, though, Control doesn't have any matchups that I would consider notably unfavorable. BUG Delver probably takes 55% from it, but it's also notably strong against Miracles, RUG Delver, and UWR Delver. I haven't tested the Deathblade matchup very thoroughly, but my preliminary thoughts are: it feels about even preboard and Deed is very, very good against them.

I'll post my current list if you're interested, but I think that while the Veteran Explorer BUG decks are fun(-ish) they are more prone to clunky play and disconnected draws than they initially appear to be. The reason to play BUG Control in my mind is that you want to play Shardless but expect a fair amount of combo and don't want to play Delver. I absolutely agree that BUG Control wants a bomb of some sort, though. I may have to test a Fact or Fiction.

Anwei- I really like holding up Counterspell in the midgame, especially because most opponents walk into it. It's also an insurance policy against things like Brainstorm to have good stuff from discard and always hits the card it needs to.

[Barbed Blightning]

I playtested McDarby's Veteran Walkers briefly online and wasn't impressed with how it handled. It's extremely powerful against non-combo decks but just seems worse overall than Shardless because it's weaker against combo since it can't apply as much pressure. Of the three controlling/midrangey BUG variants I'd put the Explorer lists as the least powerful overall even though they're the best against midrange. If you want to run Deed in BUG Control, it's quite easy - my current sideboard has 2 because I've run into a lot of Merfolk and Death and Taxes at locals recently, and they're great in those matchups. Other than that, though, Control doesn't have any matchups that I would consider notably unfavorable. BUG Delver probably takes 55% from it, but it's also notably strong against Miracles, RUG Delver, and UWR Delver. I haven't tested the Deathblade matchup very thoroughly, but my preliminary thoughts are: it feels about even preboard and Deed is very, very good against them.

I'll post my current list if you're interested, but I think that while the Veteran Explorer BUG decks are fun(-ish) they are more prone to clunky play and disconnected draws than they initially appear to be. The reason to play BUG Control in my mind is that you want to play Shardless but expect a fair amount of combo and don't want to play Delver. I absolutely agree that BUG Control wants a bomb of some sort, though. I may have to test a Fact or Fiction.

Anwei- I really like holding up Counterspell in the midgame, especially because most opponents walk into it. It's also an insurance policy against things like Brainstorm to have good stuff from discard and always hits the card it needs to.

I'll be happy to see a list, I am not that familiar with the archetype. I still think BUG Walkers is that bad an option--like the NicFit archetype, you main destroys fair decks, so your side can be more or less dedicated to the combo matches. Plus you still have Therapy and FoW--a light hate package, but enough to get you by some games. I agree, however, that the deck needs a clock--tombstalker comes to mind, but I'm sure there are other stupid cards we can ramp into that are deed proof for other matches.

Combo is also at a low point right now; Miracles, D&T and the rampant Delver decks are making it hard for them to get a foothold.

Again, though, I am relatively new to the Control archetype

(Sent from my phone, please ignore typos and grammar errors)

[anwei]

I'll post a full report if people are interested, but this is the list that I ran:

...

Instants, Sorceries, and Enchantments (21)
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Thoughtseize
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Spell Pierce
1 Sylvan Library

...

The basics, Sylvan Library, and maindeck vanilla Counterspell were excellent.

I think I've read this list like 3 times and always thought "short a Strix, Jace, and 3 discard... for what? Library and 4th force.. doesn't seem like enough to only have 8 disruption.." and moved on. You're short 2 cards - is this 2x Counterspell?

I'm deciding between 4th Force, Counterspell, Dimir Charm, Flusterstorm, and Pierce for my 9th disruptive spell. Has anyone run Charm? It seems like a better mana cost than UU with Decay/Shaman activation to leave up, and seems like a pretty reasonable split removal/disruptive spell (I can't think of a single dead match).

Were/are you happy with 2 Jace?

[btm10]

I'll be happy to see a list, I am not that familiar with the archetype. I still think BUG Walkers is that bad an option--like the NicFit archetype, you main destroys fair decks, so your side can be more or less dedicated to the combo matches. Plus you still have Therapy and FoW--a light hate package, but enough to get you by some games. I agree, however, that the deck needs a clock--tombstalker comes to mind, but I'm sure there are other stupid cards we can ramp into that are deed proof for other matches.

Combo is also at a low point right now; Miracles, D&T and the rampant Delver decks are making it hard for them to get a foothold.

Again, though, I am relatively new to the Control archetype

(Sent from my phone, please ignore typos and grammar errors)

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
1 Sylvan Library
1 Vendilion Clique
4 True-Name Nemesis
3 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Island
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Forest
2 Baleful Strix
2 Counterspell
1 Tombstalker

Sideboard
2 Null Rod
1 Krosan Grip
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Spell Pierce
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pernicious Deed

Is the list I'm currently on. I'll come back with thoughts/comments when it's not so late.

I think I've read this list like 3 times and always thought "short a Strix, Jace, and 3 discard... for what? Library and 4th force.. doesn't seem like enough to only have 8 disruption.." and moved on. You're short 2 cards - is this 2x Counterspell?

I'm deciding between 4th Force, Counterspell, Dimir Charm, Flusterstorm, and Pierce for my 9th disruptive spell. Has anyone run Charm? It seems like a better mana cost than UU with Decay/Shaman activation to leave up, and seems like a pretty reasonable split removal/disruptive spell (I can't think of a single dead match).

Were/are you happy with 2 Jace?

You're right - the missing cards are Counterspells. I think Dimir Charm is definitely worth testing. As for your last disruption slot, I'd probably favor the 4th Force, assuming you have the blue to support it. If your meta has a lot of small creatures running around (or Sneak and Show, I guess), it's definitely worth testing. As for the 3rd Jace, I don't miss the 3rd copy at all and love Sylvan Library. In the midgame against creature-based decks, Sylvan/DRS can run away with the game by itself. In other matches it's powerful card selectivity, and against Miracles, 12 Post, and Lands (basically decks where your life total isn't usually under significant stress), I generally plow anywhere from 4-12 life into it to just draw cards. It's the best thing to be doing on turn 2, hands down. If you have DRS active, you can even Thoughtseize --> Sylvan on turn 2 (or hold up Spell Pierce if you're running it) to make sure it connects.

I'm currently testing 1-of Tombstalker in the MD Maelstrom Pulse slot. I moved the Pulse (which I added to since SCG Cincinnati) to the board over one of the Deeds to make room.