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Thread: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

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    [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

    Primer
    By catmint

    Overview

    BUG Control is an aggro-control deck built around Hymn to Tourach, Snapcaster Mage, Tarmogoyf and Jace, the Mind Sculptor which often utilizes the own life total aggressively to get an advantage/survive the early game and to stabilize with Jace and Goyf in the late game. The primary form or disruption is discard and efficient counter magic.

    History:

    The traditional control deck of BUG was deedstill, which is a more dedicated control deck without a fast clock but more board control with maindeck pernicious deed. The tempo version of BUG is Team America, which utilizes Stifle, Daze, Wasteland and a greedy manabase to get an early game advantage and to end the game quickly with Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker. After the banning of Mental misstep and the release of Snapcaster Mage BUG control (often mislabeled as Team America) had great results in the SCG circuit as well as in Europe.

    Decklists:

    http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...0&iddeck=51154
    http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...2&iddeck=51081
    http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...5&iddeck=51357
    http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...0&iddeck=51164

    Card Choices:

    Besides the obvious 4 Brainstorm and 4 Force of Will I would describe the core as:

    4 Snapcaster Mage
    4 Tarmogoyf
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    2-4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    3-4 pointed discard such as Thoughtseize or Inquisition of Kozilek

    Hymn to Tourach
    Of course the power Level of Hymn is very high and needs no further explanation, but there are some design constraints which need to be considered to make it effective. First, in BUG it does not allow us to play basic lands and second it is only good if followed up by pressure like Jace or Tarmogoyf. Snapcaster Mage increases the power of Hymn to Tourach in control matchups significantly.

    Thoughtseize or Inquisition of Kozilek
    After the banning of mental misstep and the release of Snapcaster mage pointed discard got a lot better. A turn 1 Thoughtseize is again a feared play and “snapping back” a Thoughtseize is a real two for one and can be game breaking.

    Spell Snare
    It is always powerful to counter a turn 2 play, but with Snapcaster mage being a mid to late game card the overall utility of Spell Snare is increased.

    Snapcaster Mage
    A lot already written about this card. Just 1 remark for the power in BUG. BUG consists of counter spells, discard, removal, filter and win conditions. Snapcaster is all of that and increases the redundancy and consistency significantly.

    Tarmogoyf
    Still the best defensive and offensive creature in legacy. Especially when paired with [Thoughtseize] and Hymn he is usually a 4/5 when he comes down.

    Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    Decent Planeswalker…

    Removal Suite:
    4 Maindeck Removal Spells is very common. Snapcaster mage makes 1 mana removal significantly better than 2 mana removal. Snapping back Dismember hurts, but since it is sometimes possible to regulate the damage Dismember is still the best option. Ghastly Demise is the best removal spell versus non-black decks and since black creatures are not that common 1-2 in the maindeck and 4 in the 75 is probably correct. The other typical options Go for the throat, Diabolic Edict or Smother are of course also viable.

    Flexible Slots

    Sylvan Library
    You have the feeling that a control deck is doing something wrong not running Sylvan Library. Since the deck gets trouble keeping up the blue count for Force of Will, often 1-2 Ponder are played instead.

    Vendilion Clique
    A beloved card of every control player, however it is yet another 3+ mana slot. The very aggressive and evasive body is useful, but the opponents hand can be much better controlled by snapping back discard spells.

    Liliana of the Veil
    Often found as a 1 of in maindeck and/or sideboard. She cannot replace a removal slot since a lot of creatures have to be killed early, but has the chance to take over the game versus creature based decks.

    Unearth
    With snapcasters and Tarmogoyfs (+ Vendilion Clique) it can be a real late game bomb. Unearth for snapcaster for unearth for Goyf/snapcaster for xxx,... For that to work a lot has to happen and also Swords to Plowshares spoils the party. So very often Unearth will be just cycled and very often sided out. Since it is not good against creature based decks, aggro and tempo, I do not consider it anymore.

    Dark Confidant
    In a vacuum probably the most powerful creature. The problem in BUG is that aggressive decks are already a difficult matchup and the self-inflicted damage of (snapped back) Thoughtseize and Dismember result in suicide. I prefer Thoughtseize and Dismember over Bob, because
    - these cards are very powerful in a vacuum and important to survive the early game.
    - card advantage can be achieved by Hymn to Tourach, Snapcaster mage and Jace
    - Since BUG has trouble with aggressive decks, I prefer to play cards which helps against that matchup.

    There are however many successful builds out there running Bob. They usually play only 2 Jace, less lands & some amount of Daze. Bob becomes then the primary gameplan and other card choices are influenced by it.

    Ancestral Visions
    I never tested it, but also did not see it in a build that showed up a good result. Probably too slow, not necessary and no synergy with Snapcaster mage.

    Cards that do not have a good synergy with the deck.

    Tombstalker
    Some tried it and claim that it works as a 2-3 of, however there is not friendship with Snapcaster Mage and the deck does not lack of good finishers.

    Daze
    Snapcaster Mage needs all the lands in play and you cannot snap it back for alternative costs.

    Stifle
    Very often a bad top deck in the late game and only really good with Daze in a tempo oriented build.

    Manabase
    As every good control deck BUG wants to consistently make land drops. Therefore 23-24 lands is optimal. Because of Hymn it is not possible to play basics, which forces us to play through Wastelands. Snapcaster Mage is mana intensive and therefore wastelands are often not played as aggressive as in tempo decks. However Wasteland is so powerful that 3-4 is correct. Riptide Laboratory has a good synergy with Snapcaster mage providing “infinite” utility and blocks and is therefore often included. Since this synergy is very heavy on the mana, the question if it is worth to run this over the 4th Wasteland. Sunken Ruins can help to support 4 colorless lands. For builds low on creatures Creeping tar pit is a very useful addition.

    The manabase forces you to consider hate in many matchups and make sure you don’t lose to Back to Basics, Blood Moon or a Wasteland lock with Crucible of Worlds or Life from the Loam


    Sideboard
    It is important to spend a lot of sideboard space to aggro and creature based matchups. So board control with additional removal and 3-4 pernicious deed is obligatory. Since Dredge is a bad matchup 4 Leyline of the Void is played commonly, however there are other decks that utilize the graveyard, where 4 Leyline would be weak. Therefore a mix of 3-4 extirpate and surgical extraction and of course the standard GY hate is the alternative. surgical extraction has obviously a good synergy with Snapcaster mage.

    Other popular choices are Life from the Loam for the mirror or every deck that can be hurt with wastelands and of course Spell Pierce to have sideboard options versus combo and control.
    I don’t want to go into detailed SB planning, but there is one important concept when it comes to the aggro or creature based matchups:

    The plan is to make sure you can consistently trade 1 for 1 (or 2 for 1 with Snapcaster) to survive and to kill critical creatures such as Goblin Lackey, Mother of Runes, Lord of Atlantis, Knight of the Reliquary, Phyrexian Revoker, Goblin Piledriver, Quasali Pridemage,... until you can blow them out with a deed and take over with Jace, Liliana or Goyf.

    To make sure this plan works you also need pointed discard and counter magic such as Thoughtseize and spell pierce to make sure you are not blown out by choke, back to basics, goblin ringleader, or a spell to kill your deed…
    Hymn to Tourach is not very good against aggro since:

    1) we often need to kill the creature that is on-board in order to survive and execute our Gameplan (i.e.: playing Hymn while Cursecatcher, mother of runes, goblin lackey, knight of the reliquary,... is on board has little value.)

    2) we don't need card advantage in the early game, because we just need to survive to gain a huge advantage later on from Snapcaster, jace and Deed.

    2) pointed discard and counter spells are more important to ensure deed works and we are not blown out by Back to Basics, Choke, Pridemage or whatever.

    Matchup analysis

    Good Matchups:

    Most Combo Decks
    A lot of (black) disruption followed by a clock is what provides basically a good matchup.
    Storm combo variants are weak to BUG.

    Entchantress is in a fact a prison deck, but since it needs some special enablers to work, it can be disrupted like a combo deck.

    Show & Tell variants or other 2 card combo decks like Aluren, Cephalid Breakfast are a little harder since they often run more disruption of their own and also have the option of splashing red, which helps against Snapcaster and counter magic, because of Pyroblast from the sideboard.

    Elves is tough game1, but deed and more removal makes the matchup favorable. If the build is using Vengevine, I would label the matchup only slightly favorable.


    Even to Slightly Favorable Matchups

    Painted Stone
    This combo deck is on the tougher side, since discard is only good if there is no Goblin Welder on the table and they also have some hate in the form of Blood Moon and Pyroblast.

    Reanimator
    Altough this is a combo deck I find it to be a tough fight. They are fast, have Daze and black disruption. Also our discard is weaker, since they want stuff in their graveyard.

    Blade Control
    I find this matchup to be very draw and skill dependent. A lot of black disruption in the early rounds can often bring enough advantage. I would not try to be the aggro deck because they can so easily trade with Goyf or even take him with Vedalken Shackles, but rather just win the Jace war. However, then you have to bring in removal and make sure that they don’t play the aggro deck and beat you down with cliques.

    Counterbalance variants
    The lock definitely hurts, however it should be possible to stop that from happening often enough. With Krosan Grip there is also a very good SB option on curve available.

    Stax
    The deck has many locks that can win the game, but discard, counter magic, Goyf and Jace turn the matchup slightly in favor I think.

    Team America
    We run a ton of lands and have a better plan for the late game, but close by nature. ?

    Chalice based Stompy decks
    Chalice hurts a lot and dragon Stompy has a ton of moon effects. Nevertheless discard, counter magic and deed help and these decks are much less consistent than BUG.

    Eva Green
    Blue makes the difference…

    RUG Control
    I think black discard brings the advantage for the control matchup. Punishing Fire can be real pain in the ass though.

    RUG Tempo
    I think this matchup is also very skill and draw dependant. Key is not to walk into their stifles and to get some lands down. G2 and G3 we need to bring in more removal and deed, where Spell Snare and Force of Will are not good. A lot of removal and deed help to kill the threats and the black disruption works wonders. Thanks to Jace, Snapcaster their odds for the late game are very low.

    Slightly unfavorable matchups

    Non blue Stoneforge decks like Junk, Deadguy Ale and Team Italia
    There are some powerful creatures like Mother, Bob, KoR, Mirran Cruisader,… which give them the edge.
    This matchup is all about deed in g2 and 3.

    Goblins
    Deed and Discard is very reliable against Goblins, which makes the matchup not as unfavorable as it seems.

    Affinity
    G1 is very hard, but post board deed kills everything plus lands on their side, so the matchup is overall only slightly unfavorable.

    Bant aggro
    Stoneforge mystic and of course KoR represent serious threats. Their Jace also comes down pretty fast is can be protected with their creatures. This gives a huge advantage on board which has to be matched with discard, deed and removal.
    I haven't really tested a lot, but my estimation is that Bant has an advantage.

    Maverick
    KoR win’s the game alone and BUG can’t beat a Mother in g1. The other hate bears do not make it easier. G2 and 3 is much better with deed and a ton of removal, but they have plenty of stuff to fight that plus choke and sylvan library.


    Bad matchups

    Basically BUG has problems against every match where Force of Will AND Hymn to Tourach is bad. The following decks have a lot of redundancy and do not care so much about discard, because they beat BUG with what is on the board already.

    Merfolk
    Well, Lord of Atlantis, Silvergill Adept &Cursecatcher are really strong. They have counter magic and a fast clock to fight deed and of course back to basics to blow us out.

    Zoo
    Haven’t played a single time against Zoo post MM banning, but by nature the matchup is weak.

    Burn
    The cheapest deck in the format just beats one of the most expensive ones, because of too much self-inflected damage and cards like Price of Progress. Nothing you can do about that.


    Dredge (even worse Manaless Dredge)
    G1 is almost unwinnable. Having Leylines is good, but most people try to win with Extirpate effects + Snapcaster Mage to reuse them. This has proven to be winnable g2/g3, but it is still very tough.



    BUG Planeswalkers - Primer

    by death

    BUG Planeswalkers is a control deck similar to its predecessor UBg Landstill except the Standstill and Mishra's Factory are dropped in favor of Liliana of the Veil and Snapcaster Mage. The printing of decent "Flash" creatures has made Standstill in legacy a less reliable card advantage engine. A major strength of this deck are the maindeck Pernicious Deeds, a card that is not normally seen in Team America-style control decks as it blows up their own Goyfs and Dark Confidants. But, not having a fast clock in the form of Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker may also present as a weakness.

    This deck has made a handful of top finishes to brag, not surprisingly it had been mislabeled as Team America:
    http://starcitygames.com/scgdc/ Nicholas Spagnolo - 8th Place SCG Open Washington
    http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/ Marco Cammilluzzi - First Place D-Day V in Italy
    http://www.wizards.com/gpind12/ Lewis Laskin - 20th Place GP Indianapolis 2012

    Feature Articles:
    Analyzing Dark Ascension & the Future Legacy Metagame
    Deck Tech: BUG Control with Nicholas Spagnolo
    Deck Tech: BUG Control with Lewis Laskin

    Sample decklist
    // Lands
    1 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Polluted Delta
    3 Bayou
    2 Tropical Island
    4 Underground Sea
    4 Wasteland

    // Creatures
    3 Snapcaster Mage
    1 Vendilion Clique

    // Spells
    4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    3 Liliana of the Veil
    4 Brainstorm
    1 Counterspell
    4 Force of Will
    3 Spell Snare
    1 Duress
    2 Inquisition of Kozilek
    2 Thoughtseize
    1 Darkblast
    2 Ghastly Demise
    3 Innocent Blood
    1 Life from the Loam
    3 Pernicious Deed

    // Sideboard
    1 Flusterstorm
    2 Spell Pierce
    2 Perish
    1 Engineered Explosives
    2 Surgical Extraction
    3 Leyline of the Void
    4 Blue Elemental Blast


    Reason to play the deck
    Playing pure control elements puts you on a favorable position against aggro and combo. Against aggro, you should not have any problems if they overextend and you stabilize with Deed and Liliana. Against combo, your pointed discard and counter suite combined with Liliana (or Jace) should be enough to stop them dead in their tracks.

    Matchup Analysis
    Favorable - Affinity, Elves, Goblins, Merfolk
    You play with tons of answers in the form of discard, removal spells and a sweeper (Pernicious Deed). If they don't overextend into your mass removal, Liliana of the Veil would take care of their remaining threats. Affinity is an extremely fast deck but I have never lost to it in testing. Draw enablers in Elves are must-counters, same goes for Aether Vial in tribal decks. Goblins and Merfolk are reduced to playing fair if you take Lackey and Lord effects out of the equation.

    Favorable - Reanimator, Show and Tell, Enchantress, Painter
    Again your pinpoint discard spells paired with countermagic should prevent them from resolving key spells. Since the success of those decks hinges on resolving a single creature and riding it to victory, your non-targeted removal (Innocent Blood) creates a problem for them as you take out creatures with Shroud/protection ability. Ghastly Demise shouldn't have any difficulty in dealing with Painter's Servant.

    Variable - UWx Stoneblade, RUG Tempo, Maverick
    Results against these decks are varied. Mainly because these are what pros (and poor players as well) play. These decks run Wastelands which could spell disaster if you're stuck on a hand with no Brainstorm since control decks for a fact rely on a number of lands to effectively play the control role. Playing around Stifle is not only crucial in establishing your mana resource but also in stabilizing the board. Pernicious Deed is an important tool here, it's value becomes clearer after you are able to get rid of multiple Nimble Mongoose and Delver of Secrets. Engineered Explosives set at 0 can deal with germ tokens and Insectile Aberrations. In Maverick, if there's a card to fear coming from their sideboard, it's Choke. Be prepared to save Spell Pierces for this card even if you draw your discard spells and cast an early Deed on the table to prevent a potential mishap.

    Unfavorable - Burn, Dredge
    Burn can put your lights out very quickly. I've managed to win against Burn once by fatesealing him after he blew off his lands for Fireblasts. Post sideboarding, they can bring in REBs or worse Sulfuric Vortex. There's nothing you can do aside from making them discard and counter their burn spells. They can simply win by topdecking and hitting your dome. Against Goblin Guides, let the triggers resolve first to draw extra cards before doing any Snapcaster Mage tricks with Ghastly Demise during combat. While dying Snapcaster Mages would remove Bridges from Below, your discard spells and Lilianas are basically helping Dredge in this matchup.

    Card selection
    Manabase - 22,23 lands
    The deck may play manlands, but generally 22 lands is the minimum for a control deck without them. With only Brainstorm and no Ponder means that land count below this number is dangerously low. Basics aren't mandatory but you may run a singleton Island since this deck has no turn 2 Hymn to Tourach play. Be ready to fetch an Underground Sea so you can cast all your 1-mana blue and black spells. Likewise, tapping your Tropical Island/Bayous first and leaving an Underground Sea open is ideal since all your Instants are of this color.

    Wasteland - It is wiser to save this land and use it in protecting your Planeswalkers rather than use it to try to color screw an opponent, especially when you know your opponent is on Tempo. You cannot win if you don't have enough lands in play and they will always have the cheaper threats than you. It is better to save this land and use it only to destroy manlands or Grove of the Burnwillows.

    2 Mishra's Factory/1 Creeping Tar Pit - the more common configuration to beef up on offense. It is advisable to cut a Wasteland to accommodate this package in a 23-land build. The more non-colored mana sources there are, the lesser odds you have in actually casting spells. If removal is not part of your opponent's arsenal or if you have already depleted their hand, Creeping Tar Pit is likely enough to win the game or at least take down an opposing Planeswalker.

    Enchantments
    Pernicious Deed - As previously mentioned, the strength of the deck is due in part to this card. What makes it better than Damnation is that is blows up pesky enchantments and artifacts, like Pithing Needle naming a Planeswalker. It's downside is that it takes a turn to activate and it doesn't remove recurring and regenerating creatures from the game. It's still better than Maelstrom Pulse because it can wipe the board clean to pave the way for your Snapcaster Mages and Vendilion Clique.

    Night of Souls' Betrayal - Single-handedly takes down Delvers, Mothers, Hierarchs and tokens. A Stoneforge Mystic equipped with a Jitte will do nothing. This enchantment comes down a little too late against Goblins and Elves. However, Night of Souls' Betrayal stays after a Deed destroys all creatures, artifacts and enchantments with converted mana cost 3 or less, unlike Engineered Plague and Dread of Night.

    Creatures
    0-2,3 Snapcaster Mage/1 Vendilion Clique - Snapcaster Mage adds dimension to a control deck. All of a sudden full sets of Standstill and Factories have become out-of-date. Prior to this card's printing you only run 3-4 of each instant and sorcery, now there's virtually 6 or 8 of each. Vendilion Clique is pseudo-Snapcaster + instant speed disruption, packing more punch and evasion. Flash can be in response to spells on the stack (Standstill, Show and Tell, Orim's Chant or Silence) or activation (Aether Vial, Stoneforge Mystic, Jace Brainstorm).

    Scavenging Ooze - a Reanimator or Dredge player would not expect to see this card coming from the sideboard against them therefore facing a Firestorm is unlikely. But using Ooze's ability would entail early fetching of mostly green mana sources.

    Filter, Discard and Countermagic
    Brainstorm - there's an article first published on 7/29/2010 and it has been well-received: SCG Classic - Pondering Brainstorm by AJ Sacher.

    Ponder - arguable in a deck full of redundant spells that doesn't involve flipping Delvers, if it could be made better by adding 2 of this card.

    Inquisition of Kozilek - hits the majority of threats in legacy except—Jace and Elspeth, Thrun, the Last Troll, Force of Will, Batterskull, Ad Nauseam. A 2/2 split with Thoughtseize is the norm nowadays since the latter will hit those mentioned in exchange for 2 life. A singleton Duress is reasonable because it supplements the creature removal and golden when facing combo or control.

    Force of Will, Spell Snare, Counterspell - 4/3/2 split. It's not rare to take out FoWs against decks splashing red to avoid the risk of getting 2-for-1'd by REBs/Pyroblasts. Against RUG Tempo it's also not unusual for Spell Snares to go out in favor of more creature removal.

    Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm - a mix of both spells replaces creature removal against decks with 0 creatures. In control matchups, Spell Pierce has added value in denying an opponent from having his own Planeswalker enter the field.

    Miscellaneous
    Life from the Loam - breaks parity on Liliana of the Veil and a break out card against control mirrors, on the flipside it unnecessarily exposes your library to gy hate.

    Planeswalkers
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Forsythe View Post
    June 20 2011 DCI Bannings Explained
    How Did Jace, the Mind Sculptor Get Through Development?
    ...
    Of course, we didn't fully understand Jace's power. His first ability underwent a significant late change, going from milling two cards to "fatesealing" one. That ability was playtested very little, and we didn't recognize just how easy it was to put away games with it.
    Jace, the Mind Sculptor - your primary win condition. You may use his 3rd ability to return your own Snapcaster Mage or Vendilion Clique post combat to get extra value. Aggressive fatesealing after the board has stabilized should end matters quickly.

    Liliana of the Veil - Perma-discard and creature removal engine, the Mistress of Death does an excellent job at protecting Jace, the Mind Sculptor from the likes of Geist of Saint Traft, Thrun, the Last Troll and Nimble Mongooses.

    Spot Removal
    , , , .

    Choose your weapons and split them into 3/2/1. Darkblast is bonkers even without Night of Souls' Betrayal online. Dismember is the alternative to kill Goyfs and KotRs.

    Cards that didn't make the cut
    Smother, Go for the Throat, Diabolic Edict - Spell Snare is being played left and right, so think twice before running any substitutes. At the cost of 2, these spells are too expensive to get the job done with Snapcaster Mage recursion.

    Snuff Out - The cost of 4 life is not justifiable by its conditionality. A bad version of Dismember and Ghastly Demise, hefty flashback cost when paired with Snapcaster Mages.


    Feature Matches
    SCGAL - Rnd 7 - Tony Chu vs Chris Mahaffey (UW Blade)
    SCGAL - Round 4 - Tony Chu vs Adam Cai (GW Maverick)
    SCGInvi - Finals - Nicholas Spagnolo vs Maxwell Tietze (GWr Maverick)
    SCGDC - Rnd8 - Nicholas Spagnolo vs David McDarby (UR Sneak Attack)


    Top 8 Placings (most recent)
    http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/59594 Tony Chu - 4th Place SCG Birmingham 22/04/2012
    http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/59264 Sam Roukas - 2nd Place JGNELC 14/04/2012
    http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/59381 David Rocher - 11th Place LCL 31/03/2012
    http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/58714 Alession Bergamaschi - 1st Place PCLL 25/03/2012
    http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/58233 Nick Spagnolo - 2nd Place SCG Invitational 25/03/2012
    http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/58156 Causser Gianluca - 5th Place DL 18/03/2012
    http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/57787 Lerro Lorenzo - 8th Place GBLL 18/03/2012
    http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/58047 Sergio Matesanz - 4th Place LML 17/03/2012
    http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/57802 Oscar Marín - 7th Place LIL 17/03/2012
    Last edited by Nihil Credo; 05-14-2012 at 03:40 AM.

  2. #2
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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    I have been testing this deck during the last weeks, including I did top 4 in a little tournament (24 players) losing vs ant :(, just back luck.

    I think that this deck is very powerfull because in g1 we have good chances vs control and combo because we have discard and counters, and in g2 we can improve a lot our chances againts aggro sideboarding more removals + Pernicius Deed.

    For example I think that bant is a good match up post sideboard.

    In other hand I think that rug tempo is one of the our worst match ups, we are full of duals and fetchlands perfect vs theirs stifles and wastelands.

    I would advice to play creeping tar pit, this land is very good. and take some games.

  3. #3
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    I don't think the RUG tempo matchup is that bad. I played a couple of them and it was always pretty close.

    Since we play a lot of lands, they should not be able to completely manascrew us. In g1 where we are removal light, it is dangerous if they have an early threat and can counter a removal spell or defense in the form of Goyf.

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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    Very good primer catmind. Team America thread was full of BUG control discussion, this should serve well to make the distinction clearer.

    I'm trying to convince myself to stick to playing BUG (because I like the deck ) but it's mathcups are not really suited towards the current metagame in my opinion. Aggro decks are really hard to deal with, straight control decks like UW Stoneforge are a little worse than slightly-unfavorable and combo isn't that dominant for BUG to be a predator.

  5. #5
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    You think the UW Stoneforge matchup is unfavorable? I had good expierences playing versus UW control.

    What makes the matchup problematic for you?

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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    I think that UW stoneblade is favorable, our disruption and especially hymn to tourach makes the difference

  7. #7
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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    So what is this deck exactly? Is it just a BUG deck that falls in between Team America and BUG Landstill? TA without Stifles, or Landstill with creatures?

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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    When BUG gets a good start the game becomes favorable but when UW gets a smooth hand and is able to race out a SoFaF card disadvantage starts building up pretty fast.

  9. #9
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    Quote Originally Posted by bfeingersh View Post
    So what is this deck exactly? Is it just a BUG deck that falls in between Team America and BUG Landstill? TA without Stifles, or Landstill with creatures?
    Somehow yes, however I think that distinction is too simplified. TA without stifle can still be a deck with 20 lands and a tempo plan (there are such builds as you can see in the TA thread.

    I would say prepoard the deck is closer to TA and postboard versus creature decks more like landstill. However this comparison does not really fit, because the deck is totally built around snapcaster... Snapcaster does just not fit into TA or Landstill. TA does not have the manabase/curve/gameplan for it + it relies on Tombstalker which is not snapcasters friend. And in Landstill a 2/1 body has very little value.

    So maybe the deck could be called snapcaster BUG.

  10. #10

    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    Black
    3 x Dismember
    4 x Hymn to Tourach
    2 x Liliana of the Veil
    Blue
    4 x Ancestral Vision
    4 x Brainstorm
    4 x Force of Will
    3 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    3 x Spell Snare
    2 x Vendilion Clique
    Gold
    3 x Maelstrom Pulse
    4 x Pernicious Deed
    Land
    2 x Bayou
    1 x Creeping Tar Pit
    2 x Marsh Flats
    3 x Mishra's Factory
    3 x Misty Rainforest
    2 x Tropical Island
    4 x Underground Sea
    3 x Verdant Catacombs
    4 x Wasteland

    This is a rough list that i have of a jace control list that i've been tinkering with. I've really liked the idea of Jace Control with MM befor its banning, and not sure if Ancestral Vision is doable post the banning, but it does refill your hand. Basically control the board with Deed and get there with the Manlands/Cliques or Jace can get you there also.
    Get paid to talk about Magic Here

    Quote Originally Posted by sdematt View Post
    @ Mental Misstep

    I'm not going to stop running cards because they MIGHT get countered, otherwise I'd just run infinite Blurred Mongeese, Vexing Shushers, or some other garbage. Force of Will is more rampant than MM, yet I still play counterable cards. My word!

    -Matt

  11. #11
    Site Contributor
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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    Quote Originally Posted by Parax View Post
    Black
    3 x Dismember
    4 x Hymn to Tourach
    2 x Liliana of the Veil
    Blue
    4 x Ancestral Vision
    4 x Brainstorm
    4 x Force of Will
    3 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    3 x Spell Snare
    2 x Vendilion Clique
    Gold
    3 x Maelstrom Pulse
    4 x Pernicious Deed
    Land
    2 x Bayou
    1 x Creeping Tar Pit
    2 x Marsh Flats
    3 x Mishra's Factory
    3 x Misty Rainforest
    2 x Tropical Island
    4 x Underground Sea
    3 x Verdant Catacombs
    4 x Wasteland

    This is a rough list that i have of a jace control list that i've been tinkering with. I've really liked the idea of Jace Control with MM befor its banning, and not sure if Ancestral Vision is doable post the banning, but it does refill your hand. Basically control the board with Deed and get there with the Manlands/Cliques or Jace can get you there also.
    I think that this isnt the correct way for this deck.

    Bug control has to play Snapcasters, Tarmogoyfs and hymns in main deck.

    One list for reference

    Marijn Lybaert 12 ant GP Amsterdam

    Creatures [8]
    4 Snapcaster Mage
    4 Tarmogoyf


    Instants [15]
    1 Ghastly Demise
    1 Go for the Throat
    2 Dismember
    3 Spell Snare
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Force of Will


    Sorceries [9]
    1 Ponder
    2 Inquisition of Kozilek
    2 Thoughtseize
    4 Hymn to Tourach


    Planeswalkers [4]
    1 Liliana of the Veil
    3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


    Lands [24]
    1 Creeping Tar Pit
    1 Sunken Ruins
    2 Bayou
    2 Misty Rainforest
    2 Tropical Island
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Underground Sea
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Wasteland

    Sideboard:
    1 Darkblast
    2 Diabolic Edict
    2 Ghastly Demise
    2 Spell Pierce
    3 Surgical Extraction
    1 Life from the Loam
    3 Pernicious Deed
    1 Liliana of the Veil

  12. #12

    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    It's about time someone put Liliana of the Veil and Jace, the Mind Sculptor in the same deck.

    Whats the best number of each to run? We're going for three colors so the double color cost of each makes casting either hard against tempo decks like RUG Tempo.

  13. #13
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    Quote Originally Posted by DragoFireheart View Post
    It's about time someone put Liliana of the Veil and Jace, the Mind Sculptor in the same deck.

    Whats the best number of each to run? We're going for three colors so the double color cost of each makes casting either hard against tempo decks like RUG Tempo.
    In general 3 Jace and 1 Liliana SB and/or MD is very common.

    The double BB is not a consideration since we need that anyway because of Hymn.

    Concerning RUG:
    I played yesterday on MWS 2 matches versus competent RUG Tempo Players and won both very close 2:1.
    Not to get manascrewed is very important, so the starting hand should contain some lands obviously. Also you can play around stifle by just not fetching. If you don't fetch and keep making land drops they fall behind automatically. Of course if they have a lot of early pressure that plan has to be adapted.

    1 Jace goes out for sure, but I am not sure if I rather have Lilianas or Deeds (If they play nimble mongoose). Liliana is often the only edict effect, but dies very easily. Deed gives extra late game value to their stifles.

    concerning Liliana in general:
    I play currently 1 main and 1 SB. I have 1 slot maindeck which is flexible where I tested Liliana, Sylvan Library and Unearth. Since creatuers are a problem I opted for Liliana at the moment. I am also considering putting 1 deed in the maindeck instead of her since that's even better against creature decks.

    The problem with lialiana is that is not that good against blue decks, because they have all the flash creatures. (Rug has additional burn obv.). Also since we are not Team America, which only has "crap" cards in the late game it is generally harder to +1 her. Nevertheless I feel she deserves her place, because of the possibility to take over games.

  14. #14
    Non-basic lands are Mountains
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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    Very good deck, and very nice primer. :)

    Seeya today @corner?
    True strength lies in action. Let the weak react to me! -Kamahl, Pit Fighter

  15. #15

    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    Just because snapcaster is the flavor of the month does not mean that we need to be playing him in every control deck out there.

    I know that everyone likes him but i really am not on the boat with him at this time.
    Get paid to talk about Magic Here

    Quote Originally Posted by sdematt View Post
    @ Mental Misstep

    I'm not going to stop running cards because they MIGHT get countered, otherwise I'd just run infinite Blurred Mongeese, Vexing Shushers, or some other garbage. Force of Will is more rampant than MM, yet I still play counterable cards. My word!

    -Matt

  16. #16
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
    catmint's Avatar
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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    Quote Originally Posted by Parax View Post
    Just because snapcaster is the flavor of the month does not mean that we need to be playing him in every control deck out there.

    I know that everyone likes him but i really am not on the boat with him at this time.
    Did you test snapcaster?
    ..and specifically in Snapcaster BUG?

  17. #17

    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    I honestly feel if you want to go the snapcaster route, you might as well drop the green and run a ub list much like that is posted above with Delver and V.Cliques as creatures also.
    Get paid to talk about Magic Here

    Quote Originally Posted by sdematt View Post
    @ Mental Misstep

    I'm not going to stop running cards because they MIGHT get countered, otherwise I'd just run infinite Blurred Mongeese, Vexing Shushers, or some other garbage. Force of Will is more rampant than MM, yet I still play counterable cards. My word!

    -Matt

  18. #18

    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    Actually, this is one of the best decks to play him. My eyes bleed when i see people playing it on Canadian threshold (even if they win SCGs)

    About Liliana, i didnt like her at all. Seriously, i wish it were another card 80% of times.

  19. #19
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    I agree. RUG Tempo is the best Stifle/Delver Deck, but does not really have a home for snapcaster.

  20. #20
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    Quote Originally Posted by Parax View Post
    I honestly feel if you want to go the snapcaster route, you might as well drop the green and run a ub list much like that is posted above with Delver and V.Cliques as creatures also.
    Yes, this deck wants to go the snapcaster route, but it was not invented by me. You can check SCG and TC decks and see how many people choose BUG with 4 Snapcaster Mage.

    Concerning Green:
    Goyf is still the moste efficient creature for it's purpose. But green is even more important there for deed.

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