[Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

[Einherjer]

I cant understand why you board out Lilianas out in this MUs.

When playing UW a Liliana single handed pwns a Stoneforge - either by discarding their equip(later) or just letting them sacrifice their only creature. Kind of same for Maverick - want Maverick to lose creatures? Sure. Why board out Liliana? At worst shes a 1BB Edict - at best shes a game winning planeswalker - when dropped onto an empty board after a deedbooby.

So, anyone has some thoughts about Witness? She really seems very powerful for the lategame - because buying back any of your wasted cards(!) is powerful - no doubt. And the 1GG isnt too hard for me - as I play 1 Bayou and 3 Tropicals...

Greetings and have a good day.

[catmint]

I think Liliana is not that strong versus UW because the creatures they play are little "2 for 1 dudes" like Stoneforge, Spellstutter, Snapcaster where it is often a way to fall behind if you waste a turn+edict effect playing liliana. They already got value from stoneforge, spellstutter, snapcaster when you edict them which will pay off in the long term for them. Since UW plays many creatures & equipments I started playing 1-2 deed versus them. Taking hits from small creatures until I wipe the board instead of wasting cards on removal spells.

Also Snapcaster/Vendilion clique make up ~6-7 flash creatures in their deck which are very good "liliana killers".
She is still not garbage versus UW, but there are better options IMO.

Versus GW Maverick Liliana is good, but if they have 1 creature + 1 fetch (for dryad arbor) it is also hard to get the full value of "owning the game". Mindcensor is a factor but not a deciding one...

Versus Punishing Maverick Liilana is much weaker and not worth the slot I think. I rather play Surgical extraction to make sure they can't grind out my Jace.

Concerning witness:
a powerful card that could be tested/played as a 1 off instead of Goyf. But I feel the same as for ooze. Without green sun's zenit you do not get the full strength out of these slots, so I would rather play my "rock solid efficient stupid beater/wall".

[JimmyC27]

@catmint

Why do you side out Tarmogoyfs in the UW match? Because of Sword of Feast and Famine?

Also, I think your assessment there about Liliana is pretty accurate.

[Einherjer]

Another afternoon of winning with BUG Control has gone to an end. I hardly lost to anything if not because of my misplays.
BUT
I didnt even win a single game versus Burn/UR Burn - the best that was possible was 1-2... So better ignore this MU or just board some goddamn Chills? Am I just lacking up experience? Dont think so as this MU really seems that hard - and its not only Price of Progress that is ripping my ass off:(

Ye im pretty curious about the boarding of Goyfs in Stoneblade aswell.

Greetings

[sdematt]

I was recently brewing this:

1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Cabal Pit
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
24

3 Jace the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
5

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
2 Intuition
15

2 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Snapcaster Mage
5

1 Virtue's Ruin
3 Ghastly Demise
1 Smother
1 Damnation
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Life from the Loam
1 Worm Harvest
11

Use Intuition to grab Loam/Worm Harvest, or dump something you need into the bin for Snapcaster. Thrun goes all the way when you constantly clear the board, and they can't remove it (plus, you can Deed the board and he survives).

I know it's not what everyone's doing at the moment, but thoughts? Sideboard would probably include Spell Pierces, another sweeper, grave-hate, hand disruption, etc.

Thoughts?

-Matt

[The Treefolk Master]

I was recently brewing this:

1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Cabal Pit
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
24

3 Jace the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
5

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
2 Intuition
15

2 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Snapcaster Mage
5

1 Virtue's Ruin
3 Ghastly Demise
1 Smother
1 Damnation
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Life from the Loam
1 Worm Harvest
11

Use Intuition to grab Loam/Worm Harvest, or dump something you need into the bin for Snapcaster. Thrun goes all the way when you constantly clear the board, and they can't remove it (plus, you can Deed the board and he survives).

I know it's not what everyone's doing at the moment, but thoughts? Sideboard would probably include Spell Pierces, another sweeper, grave-hate, hand disruption, etc.

Thoughts?

-Matt

No love for Raven's Crime? Shriekmaw?

[Koby]

I think EE and Academy Ruins would both be very good additions. EE really reams Maverick and most Tempo builds right now. Having the recursion also helps to reload in the mid-game, and opens up Nihil Spellbomb as a recurring removal.

[sdematt]

Interesting thoughts. I'm definitely running EE in the board, so I could easily add Ruins in the main.

-Matt

[catmint]

The reason why Tarmogoyfs go out in the UW matchup is that the matchup can hardly every won by dropping a goyf and riding it too victory. It is more like trade/discard,... too oblivion and you hopefully have just 1 snapcaster + brainstorm, Jace, Goyf more and hope the opponent does not topdeck much better than you. 4 Goyfs are not useful to implement this gameplan. Some people even side out all 4 goyfs versus UW. The sword is not the reason though because if the equip a creature chances are low anyway...

Looking at your list jimmy I reconsider Vendilion clique because she is a better card in the matchup overall (-> Elspeth, Jace) + is a decent wincon + also a removal spell for opposing cliques.

_____________________

Concerning your take on BUG sdmatt.
I find it very interseting altough it goes quite in a different direction. (It would fit more the mind harvester thread, but I like to discuss it here as well)

Basically Intution/Loam engine & more counterspells instead of Discard.

It allows to run a totally different manabase and not tapping out for discard is of course a different gameplan which enables counterspell.

My thoughts:

Is there enough protection for the early game?
I would like to make a comparison to UW because it is the best "not discard" based control deck. If you look at UW Blade: Early they play counter/removal. Since they have SFM, Espeth to build up a better board position they get away with less removal, but in general I think your list has too much removal and not enough counterspells.

Not having SFM (which is equal to a fast wincondition + a way to turnaround life totals), the deck has to have more to through against threats and a better grinding game.


Concerning the wincondition

UW has Jace, Elspeth, SFM and Clique
your list has Jace, Thrun, Intuition (Stronghold/Thrun, Jace, Loam/Harvest,...)

Now your wincon is more versatile and harder to get rid off, but it is more expensive a and slower (or it is much easier to get straight value out of the UW package... I really envy their lifelink! :)

The comparison between Batterskull (5 mana "dead card") and worm harvest (5 mana "dead card") is funny, because resolving SFM or Intuition gives a 2:1 (altough not really with worm harvest). I am not sure if this is good enough...

I did not play nearly enough with worm harvest to make a good call however Ali Aintrazis article was irritating to me, because he is doubting if a singleton worm-harvest is good enough for his SB (not MD) altough he plays 4 loam and 4 entomb in his BU Pox deck. (totally different deck with different issues, but still I thought if worm harvest at his best in his deck)

check out.
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...Poxing_DC.html

If you think that most of the time you rather win with Jace or Thrun, we could just replace the mind harvest with an eternal witness.

What you should also think about is how you can gain life to have a chance against the burn matchup (there should be some options with intuition... altough probably bad ones)

So enough brain-masturbation here is what I am going to play a couple of games with:

Your list SDmatt with the following changes:

-1 Swamp
+ 1 Misty Rainforest
btw: I am concerned about the blue and fetch count. Volraths stronghold and Cabal Pit might have to go?... Also wastelands have more value playing Loam/Intuition.

-1 Virtues Ruin
-1 Damnation
-1 Counterspell
+ 2 Spell Pierce
+ 1 Spell Snare

-1 Worm Harvest
+ 1 Eternal Witness

___________
concerning the SB:
I just checked my worm harvest list:
Academy ruins + Crypt/Zuran orb/EE (and loam of course) looks so slow and playing only 2 Intuition I can't imagine this is good enough.

I would for sure like to play 3 Vendilion Clique versus combo & control

[DKK]

One of the issues I envision with this deck is it's 'vulnerability' to GY hate. Both Snapcaster and Goyf (and possibly Tombstalker) are affected by it, as well as Ghastly Demise. What is the deck's main plan against opposing Relics? Using a Deed to get rid of a single Relic does not look that profitable to me.

[JimmyC27]

Has anyone tried bringing Kitchen Finks off the SB as an improvement to aggro matches?




@DKK

I would focus on winning through Jace, and ignore the relic.. use the Deed to keep the board clean.

[Einherjer]

Ive done some changes to my list and Id like to hear your opinion on it,
This was the list I ran before:

22 Lands including 4 Waste 1 Riptide 0 Basics

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Snapcaster Mage

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell

3 Ghastly Demise
1 Go for the Throat

2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize

3 Pernicious Deed

4 Brainstorm

1 Unearth
1 Life from the Loam

Sideboard:

1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Unearth
1 Life from the Loam
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Virtue's Ruin
1 Krosan's Grip
1 Nature' Claim
2 Duress

Now I run:

24 Lands ( 10 Fetchies, 7 Duals, 1 Sunken Ruins, 1 Creeping Tar Pit, 4 Wastelands)

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Snapcaster Mage

3 Jace, the MInd Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell

3 Ghastly Demise
1 Go for the Throat

4 Thoughtseize ( I cut 2 Hymns here to add 1 Thoughtseize + 1 extraslot)

3 Pernicious Deed

4 Brainstorm

2 Life from the Loam (I switched the SB-LftL to mainboard, cause its so good against Canadian and alot of other decks=

Sideboard:
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Unearth
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Krosan's Grip
2 Duress
Not too many changes in the Sideboard.

So I still got 1 extra-Slot in the maindeck to be filled. Why did I cut Hymns? Cause I didnt like to be completly tapped out T2 and enable my opponent to play what he likes too. So I was thinking of putting in a second Counterspell or the fourth Spell Snare...
Or a 5th cc1 Discard?
And I was thinking of putting even more LftL into the sideboard in order to crush tempodecks - they can hardly beat a Control-Deck that just has resolved an LftL

What do you think of this updated version? It looks pretty strong if you ask me - but that might be pretty subjective :P

Greetings

[JimmyC27]

Couple of questions:

1) What's the right combination of Jace and Liliana? I've seen everything from 3-3, 3-2, 3-1, and 2-2.


2) What's the right combination of Deeds between main and sideboard? How do you break them up? Lately, I've been feeling like 4 Deeds is too many. Perhaps 2 main, 1 side?


3) Does Clique belong in the maindeck at all? He's an extra beater, and has some come into play effects that help the deck out. If he's not maindeck material, why not?


4) Any suggestions on a way to add life gain to this deck? I was considering Kitchen Finks...



Thanks for your thoughts.

Jimmy

[Razorwynd]

I feel like GG on the finks might be to taxing... I mean you want U for brainstorm and spell snare, B for ghastly demise, and GG for kitchen finks all with in the first three turns. I wonder how often that actually occurs and it leaves you no room to combat PoP with basics.

What about dark heart sliver? you can even side it in against dredge to remove bridges!

Just a thought.

[JimmyC27]

Darkheart Sliver is pretty clever. Thanks for the suggestion.

[Plague Sliver]

I was recently brewing this:

<<Sweet list>>

Nice build, I like the virtual CA with Thrun. No love for Gigapede?

How does it fare against Stoneblade G1? And have you thought about playing Goyfs out of the board to handle Burn / Aggro?

[catmint]

Couple of questions:

1) What's the right combination of Jace and Liliana? I've seen everything from 3-3, 3-2, 3-1, and 2-2.


2) What's the right combination of Deeds between main and sideboard? How do you break them up? Lately, I've been feeling like 4 Deeds is too many. Perhaps 2 main, 1 side?


3) Does Clique belong in the maindeck at all? He's an extra beater, and has some come into play effects that help the deck out. If he's not maindeck material, why not?


4) Any suggestions on a way to add life gain to this deck? I was considering Kitchen Finks...



Thanks for your thoughts.

Jimmy

1) I would not go less than 3 jace except for in confidant builds
Liliana is a meta decision as well as matter of taste. I play 1 main + 1 side

2) Deed: 3-4, but I just love them and play them very well (I think) so I play 2 main 2side

3) I played clique in Amsterdam and it was bad. SO many clunky hadns with jace/snapcaster/clique... We have much better options for handcontrol with snapcaster + discard and the beater is not the biggest consideration for me since I hardly win tempobased (bringing enough beats in before opponent develops his game). She is awesome versus combo/control but I use most SB slots for bad matchups and not favourable ones...

4) Any life gain option for us just sucks. Imagine spending a 2 mana + a card for 3 life where burn spends 1 mana and a card for 3 damage, where burn has a 66% chance to draw 3 more damage and you don't.

The optimal hands versus burn has 2 Lands, Goyf, Hymn, Removal, Spell Snare , Force of Will. If you have something like this + brainstorm it also has a shot.

Btw: the best life-gain option is batterskull IMO (even casting it)

[JimmyC27]

Good point on the life gain. This is why I often consider playing Esper Control.. which has better removal (Swords + Path), and also picks up the life gain from Batterskull/Jitte. However, I don't like giving up Deed--plus Tarmogoyf is a "set and forget" type card that doesn't tie up a lot of mana like SFM.

[Einherjer]

Why dont we just play 2 Jittes in the sideboard to equip our Tarmogoyf - which cannot be killed by burn easily - and then bump into infinite life?

[catmint]

Having 2 Jitte versus burn brings you 4 life earliest turn 4 but also requires Tarmogoyf.
Having 2 Batterskull brings you 4 life earliest turn 6 without needing tarmogoyf but needing a lot of lands.

Hmm...Jitte sounds like the better options. The problem is we cannot use it against creature decks, because they wreck us if we play creatures to get jitte counters. So it would be a very narrow sideboard card, which is ok if the it's a metagame call.

Someone going to test jitte if that plan really works out?

For now I am ok loosing 65%+ of the time versus burn. What makes me feel good is that we also can have some draws which they have a hard time beating and that (no offense to all good burn players) a lot of them make horrible play mistakes + SB choices.