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Thread: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

  1. #21
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    I would like to talk about the RUG Tempo matchup since it is very popular at the moment.

    I just beat it again in MWS 2:0. The draw somehow went my way, but with my recent experiecnes, maybe the matchup is not slightly unfavorable as I thought, but more even.

    The following specific situation got me thinking about the general strategy:
    The following situation came up in g2 after I grinded him out in g1.
    My opening hand:
    Fetch, Fetch, Fetch, Thoughtseize, Hymn, Ghastly Demise, Snapcaster Mage

    I am on the play and for 4 turns it goes "land go" except for him casting a Ponder in turn 4. I did not want to crack my fetches to get stifled and I feel my Thoughtseize and Hymn do not loose value.

    After his Turn 4 his board is: Tropical, Volcanic, Wasteland, Wasteland.
    Since he does not do anything I feel he has at least 1 stifle and I am afraid I loose the game getting totally mana screwed. Fortunately I draw an Underground sea:
    I play thoughtseize and he reveals: Wasteland, Goyf, Pyroblast, Spell Snare, Spell Snare, Lightning Bolt

    Since I had drawn another Inquision I also cast it to get rid of all his spell snares, so I can follow up with a hymn. Luckily I hit a wasteland so I keep 2 of my lands.

    From there I trade easily with his threats and finish him off with Jace.

    So my question is:
    What do you think about the plan not to fetch unless you are under a lot of pressure?
    I mean it is more likely that he really has a stifle as the game goes long, but I feel the longer it goes "land - go" it is an advantage for us. Especially post board, where we have Spell Pierce and if he misses land drops (which is very common). Also if they want to play threats, make lands drops and have mana open for Stifle AND Spell Snare/Pierce they need to brainstorm end of turn and make suboptimal plays.

    Do you have experience with this line? It is somehow awkward not to kick off with Thoughtseize and Hymn if we have it. But I feel like so many time I walk into Stifle or trade with Spell Pierce/Spell Snare/Daze.


    Concerning Sideboarding against RUG Tempo
    I feel that I have to side out Force of Will. RUG has a lot of virtual card advantage running only 18 lands and we cannot afford to exile any of the blue cards we run. RUG does also not have something we need to force, so we need to make sure that we can protect our fundamental spells with black disruption and spell pierce.

    I like to play a lot of removal to make sure I don't loose to delver or Goyf. I think nimble mongoose is the scariest threat, so I also like to play 2 deed and 1 liliana so I have 3 removals for Mongoose, which can also be game winning. In general I like to bring out blue cards versus good black and green cards to weaken their pyroblasts.

    So how I side at the moment
    -4 Force
    -1 Jace (need to lower the curve)
    -2 Dismember (Don't want to hurt myself and ghastly demise is better)
    -1 Spell Snare (Seems loose to run it for Goyf, Fire-Ice, but some do run Snapcaster)
    -1 Go for the throat (too expensive)

    +2 Spell Pierce (I also play 1 Maindeck)
    +3 Ghastly Demise (+1 maindeck)
    +1 Darkblast
    +1 Liliana
    +1 Life from the Loam (can win the game)
    +1 Deed (so 2 overall, because now I run 1 maindeck)

    Thoughts? What is your strategy versus RUG Tempo?

  2. #22

    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    Why board in darkblast? I play the matchup all the time on MODO and your matchup plan is solid but darkblast is almost never useful.

  3. #23
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    Quote Originally Posted by juppal View Post
    Why board in darkblast? I play the matchup all the time on MODO and your matchup plan is solid but darkblast is almost never useful.
    True. It's new that I use it. It kills delver before he flips and also brings the advantage Goyf versus Goyf. Replacing it with a Dismember or a Go for the throat seems right.

  4. #24
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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    Againts rug Out -4 Force of will -3 spell snare and -1 Jace

    In +3 removals + 2 spell pierce + 1 life from the loam, +1 Dark Blast, db is good againts threshold (delver, lamancers or goyfs wars ) moreover if they play nimble mongoose I would sideboard pernicious deed rather than spell pierce.

  5. #25
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    Quote Originally Posted by kiwi View Post
    Againts rug Out -4 Force of will -3 spell snare and -1 Jace

    In +3 removals + 2 spell pierce + 1 life from the loam, +1 Dark Blast, db is good againts threshold (delver, lamancers or goyfs wars ) moreover if they play nimble mongoose I would sideboard pernicious deed rather than spell pierce.
    seems correct.
    Spell Snare seems very weak. Good point about darkblast for Lavamancer.

  6. #26
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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    I played Canadian ***** myself a lot and the key for rug player is NOT to reach lategame.
    When bug player stabilize its probably over. I think it is mistake to side out Force. I used to be doing that and it is wrong. You need to make sure your (kill) spells will resolve. Card advantage is nothing if you are dead. They have no way how to draw cards so fow on their goyf is perfectly fine.
    I love Ghastly Demise. Since its rugs biggest enemy. He has 11 creatures and we need to focus on killing them.
    Spell Snare hits 4-5 his spells so that goes. (depends if he runs snapcasters - I dont thing thats very good version honestly; mongoose rocks)
    Dismember stays. It helps early and it kills anything later. (unlike rug you can pay bb)
    You dont really need spell pierce. Focus on killing creatures - thats the key.
    I wouldnt keep Thoughtseize because of the lifeloss.
    Keep Inquisitions and like three hymns stay.
    One less jace is fine.
    Life from the loam of course - deed is problematic since he keeps all stifles and I would strongly suggest considering Surgical Extractions since it can be round one win - him - tropico, ponder me - waste, extraction (happended to me in rug mirror)
    Liliana is fantastic!

  7. #27
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    Quote Originally Posted by Koplinchen View Post
    I played Canadian ***** myself a lot and the key for rug player is NOT to reach lategame.
    When bug player stabilize its probably over. I think it is mistake to side out Force. I used to be doing that and it is wrong. You need to make sure your (kill) spells will resolve. Card advantage is nothing if you are dead. They have no way how to draw cards so fow on their goyf is perfectly fine.
    I love Ghastly Demise. Since its rugs biggest enemy. He has 11 creatures and we need to focus on killing them.
    Spell Snare hits 4-5 his spells so that goes. (depends if he runs snapcasters - I dont thing thats very good version honestly; mongoose rocks)
    Dismember stays. It helps early and it kills anything later. (unlike rug you can pay bb)
    You dont really need spell pierce. Focus on killing creatures - thats the key.
    I wouldnt keep Thoughtseize because of the lifeloss.
    Keep Inquisitions and like three hymns stay.
    One less jace is fine.
    Life from the loam of course - deed is problematic since he keeps all stifles and I would strongly suggest considering Surgical Extractions since it can be round one win - him - tropico, ponder me - waste, extraction (happended to me in rug mirror)
    Liliana is fantastic!
    Thanks for you input but I disagree for most points.

    1) FoW cant stay. We can make sure the removal works by
    - redundancy &
    - playing around daze

    True they have no way to draw cards, but they draw a lot more spells than we do and have 4 more filter spells. So their overall card quality (and therefore virutal card advantage) will be higher.

    2) If Spell Snare hits just 4-5 spells it can't stay way to narrow. Especially if its goyf which we can hanlde with every removal spell and our own goyfs.

    3) Thoughtseize on the other hand is very important. If you want to play that crucal goyf/removal/snapcaster for removal you need to clear the way from Red blasts and Spell Snares.

    4)Wasting/Extirpating sounds like fun. However for that to work we need a "2 card combo" in hand and need to make sure they do not have 2 tropicals in play already. I would only considering bringing in 2 extirpate if they run loam and snapcaster. If not I would rather use the slots for solid removal.

    5)Liliana is ok, but after 1 edict she can so easily die. Also the +1 hurts us more then them.

    I found deed to be very useful. Think 2-3 is good versus mongoose builds post-board.

    By the way: Just won another game 2:1.
    G1 I walked into 2 Stifle and he had 3 mongoose.
    G2 we both had reasonable draws. I could stick a jace and could protect it for 4 brainstomrs into lands. After he killed Jace, I drew 3 goyf in a row though. :)
    G3 he mulliganed and was empty handed with 2 mongoose on board very soon. He conceded to my deed and 3 cards in hand.

    Since I won now the last 5 games (3 times 2:1 and 2 times 2:0) I am going to change the matchup in the primer to even/slightly favorable.

  8. #28
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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    Well my english is far from perfect - spell snares are obviously bad and they are sided out.
    It is easy to say - play around Daze, but thats why rug is one of the best decks - its really fast. Wasteland has always target, spell snare, stifle... That deck is designed to beat decks like bug. I would even say - perfect rug hand -> perfect bug hand.

    I said 4. But its probably correct to keep two Forces in. I would like to hear someones else opinion. Tempo is more than card advantage here.

    Surgical is not just good to remove lands - it gives you info about your opp. hand, you can remove goyf, spell snare. I like it.

    Thoughtseize - volcanic into delver; fetch sea thoughtseize; flip waste attack to 14 play delver; whatever - daze... gg.

    but...

    This is what Marijn suggests (since I guess we are talking about his build):

    Vs. RUG Tempo
    - 4 Force of Will
    - 3 Spell Snare
    + 2 Diabolic Edict
    + 1 Darkblast
    + 1 Life from the Loam
    + 1 Liliana of the Veil
    + 2 Pernicious Deed
    Liliana is your girl. Play her on an empty board, and there is no way you are losing the game. Try to wait till you are sure you can resolve her (don't run into Daze).

    I am completely wrong then.

  9. #29
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    I also like Liliana, but unfortunately there are plenty of ways to loose with playing her on an empty board.

    Especially versus RUG. They can easily have Bolt+creature or playing 2 cratures in the same turn or 2 bolts.

    Does anyone have good experience playing against Maverick?
    I would be interested to hear what you think the matchup is pre- postboard.
    My guess is 25:75 preboard and 60:40 postboard

  10. #30
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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    Assigning arbitrary percentages to matchups doesn't get any where, but you're right in your assessment. Game one is pretty much in their favor. On average, one can squeek out more wins if their opponent isn't that good or the draw favors them. Game two/three get better because of Perish. That's the card you need for this match up. If you expect to see it even once at a touranment, just run two. They are at least a two for one against zoo, another very popular green beatdown deck.

    They'll be bringing in things like Choke and maybe an Enlightened Tutor package that might feature some GY hate for snapcaster, maybe bring in Elspeth if she's not already maindeck (soo good maindeck). Anyways, they'll be shedding dead cards against you like Stoneforge packages (in anticipation of Deed/etc), and maybe shaving a StP or two, as there's no goyf war with Maverick. They just Exalted you to death.

    If you can just go land-go for the post board games, you have a good chance at stabilizing. I'd leave in discard for their sideboard cards and strategies and side out countermagic. Your blue count is going down with all the sideboard cards coming in, so seems right, but I could be misjudging it.

    The matchup is favorable for them overall because they have lots of big beats, so naturally one-for-one is exhausting, and they still have all these beats going into topdeck mode.

    Tight play is key in this matchup, you gotta get them to walk into your Perish/Deed. I happen to think that Jace is a house in this match. But as a one of, he can probably go for more Lilianas. I play three maindeck, love her. Trade the first one for creatures, the second one for their hand and board. At the GP I ultimated her twice. In one game.

    Like a boss.

    Anyhoo. I'll say the tl'dr version of this post is to practice the matchup. Discard>counters, Perish/Deed = awesome, you're the control so make your land drops.

  11. #31
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    Very solid analysis jandax.
    Sounds like you have a good grasp how to have a game versus Maverick. I do not only keep discard in but also spell pierce for their sideboard cards but also for Elspeth, Equipments, GSZ,...

    I do not play Perish, because if they sneak in a surviving mother or a jitte it will still be very hard to beat them after Perishing the board, since every creature they play represents another serious threat. Deed takes care of everything. Deed is also good versus goblins, merfolk, affinity, entchantress, Team Italia, Boros,... where Perish is not, so I like to maximize the value of my SB slots.

    Of course deed is harder to play versus maverick, because it is slower and they can find answers.

    I would really like to test more Liliana MD, but I so far do not have space. What did you cut: removal? Discard? Blue cards?
    Also arent there some matchups where she is only mediocre?

  12. #32
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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    Quote Originally Posted by catmint View Post
    Very solid analysis jandax.
    Sounds like you have a good grasp how to have a game versus Maverick. I do not only keep discard in but also spell pierce for their sideboard cards but also for Elspeth, Equipments, GSZ,...

    I do not play Perish, because if they sneak in a surviving mother or a jitte it will still be very hard to beat them after Perishing the board, since every creature they play represents another serious threat. Deed takes care of everything. Deed is also good versus goblins, merfolk, affinity, entchantress, Team Italia, Boros,... where Perish is not, so I like to maximize the value of my SB slots.

    Of course deed is harder to play versus maverick, because it is slower and they can find answers.

    I would really like to test more Liliana MD, but I so far do not have space. What did you cut: removal? Discard? Blue cards?
    Also arent there some matchups where she is only mediocre?
    Deed is indeed better than Perish, but what Perish does for the green beatdown matchups is subtle. They're bringing in Choke and likely Grip against BUG control. Choke shuts down a vast portioin of BUG's mana base, save Bayou/Creeping Tar Pit/Sunken Ruins/Wasteland/etc. That said, I feel comfortable running 3 deed/2 perish in the side, where Perish is simply there for the beatdown decks. It throws a wrench in their game plan, and landing a Liliana to follow up, for example, usually means you're in the driver's seat. And leaving Spell Pierce in/siding it in is a great move. Save it for their SB cards, and handle the rest with yours and I expect the game to usually end post board in BUG's favor.

    I cut blue cards for three MD Liliana, and in Vial matchups she's not so good. They deploy lots of threats and a three mana edict isn't a big game. I don't count her as a removal spell, only in game one where the deck is already light.

    Here's my list for reference, I played something different at the GP but this list reflects a couple T32 BUG lists.

    4 Force
    3 Snare
    4 Hymn
    2 Thoughtseize
    1 Inquisition
    2 Go for the Throat (over Dismember)
    2 Ghastly Demise
    3 Liliana
    2 JTMS
    4 Tarmogoyf
    3 Snapcaster
    1 Clique
    4 Brainstorm
    2 LftL

    9 fetch
    4 Seas
    2 Trop
    1 Bayou
    4 Waste
    1 Creeping Tar Pit
    1 Riptide Lab
    1 Island

    I generally run the Trop into the first stifle/wasteland. Black is more important early on, so preserving that Bayou will go a long way. The sideboard is in flux but there's definitely Deeds and Grips. Extra Spell Pierce, sure, I still like Surgical Extraction, but see merrit for Extirpate and Leyline. An extra Clique and Snappy are in the board too.
    Last edited by jandax; 11-20-2011 at 06:42 AM.

  13. #33

    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    I feel like the deck is slowly shifting towards GBu good stuff. As a result a lot of blue cards are being cut (understandably so). As it currently stands, there are only 17 blue cards in the deck including FoW. Is it worth considering moving these to the SB for match ups where the are completely necessary or the blue card count is higher than 20?

  14. #34
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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    Made a mistake with that deck list. But you're right, it's becoming less of a cohesive control deck and more of a goodstuff late-game deck, a BUG Rock deck. I just really like the archetype but have problems being objective enough to create real synergy between cards, and keep the blue count higher.

  15. #35
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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    I think cutting cliques and unearth is a bad idea. I really feel that unearth is an extremely strong card and absolutely bonkers with snapcaster. I'm playing the standard list and it's been performing well so far. I don't think the deck needs so much discard though. 2 Seize, 1 inquisition and 4 hymm seems enough.

  16. #36
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    The blue count is a challenge, because it is really just a much better Rock deck. I am more conservative, so I do not go lower than 19. Post-board FoW comes always out to transform the deck for board control.

    The list I play currently:


    4 Underground Sea
    1 Creeping Tar Pit
    2 Tropical Island
    2 Bayou
    1 Sunken Ruins
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Misty Rainforest
    2 Verdant Catacombs

    4 Tarmogoyf
    4 Snapcaster Mage

    2 Thoughtseize
    2 Inquisition of Kozilek
    4 Hymn to Tourach

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Force of Will
    3 Spell Snare
    1 Spell Pierce
    3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    2 Dismember
    1 Go for the Throat
    1 Ghastly Demise
    1 Pernicious Deed

    SB
    2 Spell Pierce
    3 Ghastly Demise
    3 Pernicious Deed
    1 Darkblast
    1 Life from the Loam
    1 Liliana of the Veil
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Extirpate


    I played Unearth and 2 Vendilion Clique in the Grand Prix instead of the deed in a 23 land build. The problem was that I had too many "clunk hands" which did not survive the eraly game (i.e: Snapcaster Mage, Jace, Vendilion Clique, unearth,...).

    Yes, Unearth and Clique are very good, but I felt I have to cut it for stuff that helps in the early game.

    I also figured that playing 4 mana discard spells is not bad, especially if you want to reliably snap them back in turn 3. The clique effect is not that important then...

    Unearth competes with the deed (or Sylvan Library) in the maindeck and... well I think deed serves a much better purpose in "hopeless" situations and is often an out in game1.

    Because there are so many good green and black cards that I would like to play, the maindeck Life from the Loam does not have a chance for me, altough it is so good in some matchups that I consider a second one in the sideboard.

    I never tested the 1 Ponder instead of the 1 Spell Pierce. In the GP there where 2 random g1 situation where this spell pierce won the game for me. However I did not count the times where I whished it was a Ponder. So, also not set on this.

    I feel 4 Wasteland are a must if I play Loam in the SB and Creeping Tar Pit has also proven to be very good.

  17. #37
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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    I play/am testing two MD LftL only because I rock three Liliana main. Liliana turns all those late game dead draws like extra discard/lands/LtfL....

    Typing that out really kind of stings. "all those late game dead draws" like a quarter of the deck.....Seems like a bigger problem exists, ya know?

    I dunno. Probably best to stick with a "stock" list like ivanpei's. Not that I'm trying to innovate out of desperation, you know, add things laying around at home to make the deck feel more accomplished.

    Look at the T32 from the GP, there's a BUG list in the mid 20's that I really liked. Same sort of idea that I want to build around.

  18. #38
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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    I have to admit that this deck does feel somewhat clunky. I don't know how this deck wins without a reasonable clock. Basically -2 clique, -2 unearth means -4 threats. If these cards were to go, they should be replaced with threats. I would have to say that this is not a very good pure control deck because discard stinks in the late game. This should be more of a mid range aggro control deck ala rock.

    I know that cliques and unearths are clunky, but replacing them with more snares/lftl/liliana doesn't seem too hot. You want to knock them off their groove with discard and kill them before they recover. Once you start bricking on late game discard, you've lost. Also maybe im slightly biased towards unearth because I pulled off a snap> unearth> snap> unearth> goyf chain once. Totally swung the whole game for me. I would say 30% of the time I'd have to cycle unearth because my dudes get plowed or I simply did not have a threat to being back. 30% of the time it's absolutely bonkers with snapcaster and the other 40% it's just a cheap goyf/clique which is also fine.

  19. #39
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    True, with cliques the unearth is better. Not a question for me though, since I cut the cliques.

    My logic was not to replace 2-4 threats with other threats, because I felt often to be overloaded with threats, but without the ability to stabalize. I added 1 threat in the form of creeping tar pit. So my winconditions are 4 snapcaster mage, 4 goyf, 1 creeping tar pit and of course the best one: 3 Jace.
    So technically the winconditions are more than in many classic TA lists. Of course snapcaster mage cannot win the game alone, but since she comes with a hymn, thoughtseize, spell snare, removal spell or brainstorm, he does a lot for the game.

    I tested my build since 1 week after the GP in countless matches, but I never felt that I don't have enough win-conditions. Against many decks even 2+ Goyf come out and I still have a very positive matchup.

    Concerning Discard to be dead in the late game. That is true versus many decks where we have to transform into a deed / removal heave deck and board out the hymns. Versus many decks which keep counters/removal in their hand the late discard is very useful. Of course in general less useful than in the beginning, but I think the advantage of playing heavy discard early is much bigger than the disadvantage of having some bad draws.

  20. #40

    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    Just won a foil judge maze of ith (in a small tournament) with this deck. My list was the following:

    [8 Creatures]
    4 Goyf
    4 Snapcaster Mage

    [28 Spells]
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Spell Snare
    4 Force of Will
    2 Ponder
    3 Jace, the Mind sculptor
    1 Liliana of the Veil
    3 Dismember
    2 Diabolic Edict
    1 Ghastly Demise

    [24 Lands]

    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Underground Sea
    3 Bayou
    3 Verdant Catacombs
    2 Misty Rainforest
    2 Tropical Island
    3 Wasteland
    1 Riptide laboratory
    1 Sunken Ruins
    1 Creeping Tar Pit

    Sideboard:
    4 Thoughtseize
    3 Pernicious Deed
    3 Extirpate
    3 Ghastly Demise
    2 Spell Pierce

    G1 - NO RUG (1-2)
    G2 - Canadian Thresh (0-2)
    G3 - Bye
    G4 - Goblins (2-0)

    Top 8:

    QF - Merfolk (2-1)
    SF - NO RUG (2-1) (same opp as G1)
    Final - Canadian Thresh (2-0) (same opp as G2)

    Still haven't figured out how good this deck is. I used to play BUG landstill, but the meta is not too good for it now (flash creatures and tempo decks are all over the place) so i am trying this now. I don't really like discard in the main deck (thoughtseize and inquistion) as you seem to fall behind pretty quickly against aggro decks so i added additional removal. Hymn is the exception cause it is such a ridiculous card and it is worth falling behind on board a bit. In addition i wanted to use flusterstorms in the sideboard but i couldn't get them fast enought for the tournament so the SB was mostly experimental and probably incorrect.

    Regards

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