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Thread: [Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

  1. #41

    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    Hmmm... My group has been playing some version of "BUG control" (Team Amaerica without Stifle and with Jace) ever since JTMS was printed, and there are some glaring issues on this thread.

    A few things I see that I disagree with:

    -No Dark Confidant in everyone's list. I seriously don't understand this. Bob is my primary gameplan with this deck, and it is better than Snapcaster and Goyf. It complements Snapcaster nicely, especially if you are running Unearth. It makes me wonder how people are actually winning with this deck against a varried field. This must be a side effect of people porting their Stifle/Tombstalker Team America decks to control and forgetting that Bob exists. Anyways, please play Bob.

    -Liliana. Liliana is great, but she is bad against certain decks, most notably, RUG Tempo. I see in multiple posts that people run up to THREE Lilianas against RUG Tempo, and that is absolutely terrible. Liliana is used in grindy, rock-style matchups.

    -Dismember. What is everyone killing with this that makes it better than the other options? Especially if you add Bob to your deck, you cannot play this. Snapcaster + Dismember is actually very bad against aggro decks. Testing against a variety of decks (that include Merfolk...) should show quickly that this usually needs to be Ghastly Demise.

    -No Daze and some lists with no Wasteland. This again leads me to believe that people aren't testing every matchup. Is Daze the greatest card in the deck? Not really, but it is very important. I understand that the nature of a deck primer containing the word "control" will cause people to not even consider Daze, but this deck will get demolished by Fish and other aggro decks (and even Jace) if you don't play the tempo game a little bit.

    I think generally paying more attention to aggro matchups will lead to more success with deckbuilding and in turn lead to higher finishes. There is still a strong package for grindy Jace matchups in our list, but things like 2 Loam maindeck are never going to win you a big tournament with a diverse field (unless you are extremely lucky and have no variance in your matchups).

    For reference this deck has only been played by our group in three tournaments since Snapcaster was printed, and it got 1st at a SCG IQ in Durham, 12th at SCG Nashville, and 13th at SCG Nashville. Since the rise of RUG, we have changed the list to include Unearth.

    Here is the current list:

    4 Tarmogoyf
    4 Dark Confidant
    4 Snapcaster Mage
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    4 Brainstorm
    1 Ponder
    1 Unearth
    2 Inquisition of Kozilek
    4 Hymn to tourach
    2 Ghastly Demise
    1 Smother
    1 Go for the Throat
    2 Spell Snare
    3 Daze
    4 Force of Will

    4 Underground Sea
    2 Bayou
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Creeping Tar-pit
    3 Polluted Delta
    3 Misty Rainforest
    3 Verdant Catacomb
    4 Wasteland

    SB
    2 Extirpate
    1 Surgical Extraction
    1 Ghastly Demise
    1 Darkblast
    4 Pernicious Deed
    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    1 Liliana of the Veil
    1 Life from the Loam
    2 Unearth
    1 Spell Snare

  2. #42

    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    If aggro is a problem you can try out Tangle. It is a double-fog that works really well with Snapcaster. It might work even better considering you run Confidant, which can sometimes force you to look for an alpha-strike before getting hit by one. It's not the most elegant solution though.

    Edit: Since you are running Daze and Wasteland I can't help but want to fit Stifle in your list. Stifle+Waste will just lock people up, but when you add Daze into the equation things get especially scary.

  3. #43

    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanti View Post
    If aggro is a problem you can try out Tangle. It is a double-fog that works really well with Snapcaster. It might work even better considering you run Confidant, which can sometimes force you to look for an alpha-strike before getting hit by one.
    I am actually not having trouble with aggro at all, which is my point. Dismember (with a Snapcaster control deck running black) and Liliana are pretty bad against aggro, and Dark Confidant is actually amazing against aggro decks like fish, as you keep gettting more removal that you can play twice with Snapcasters. I built my list with a strong emphasis on beating aggro-style decks, because it is very good naturally against everything else. Regardless, I still have the nice Loam, 3rd Jace, Lily package in the SB for grindy matchups, plus Unearth against non-Tundra decks.

    As a sidenote, I think the Inquistions are much better than Thoughtseize maindeck, but I would certainly run Thoughtseize in the SB if I wanted more of that effect. Snapping back Inquistions is very good against Merfolk and friends, but Thoughtseize gets signifacantly worse there.

    I promise I'm not always know-it-all about decks ; we've just been playing this deck for a very long time with good success. I have super strong opinions about like 3 or 4 decks that I have spent a couple hundred hours playtesting in group of 4 people that boasts of Legacy GP top 8, multiple SCG top 8's, IQ wins, GPT wins, ect. This is just one of the favorite decks that has been played to death in our playgroup.

  4. #44

    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7 View Post
    Hmmm... My group has been playing some version of "BUG control" (Team Amaerica without Stifle and with Jace) ever since JTMS was printed, and there are some glaring issues on this thread.

    A few things I see that I disagree with:

    -No Dark Confidant in everyone's list. I seriously don't understand this. Bob is my primary gameplan with this deck, and it is better than Snapcaster and Goyf. It complements Snapcaster nicely, especially if you are running Unearth. It makes me wonder how people are actually winning with this deck against a varried field. This must be a side effect of people porting their Stifle/Tombstalker Team America decks to control and forgetting that Bob exists. Anyways, please play Bob.

    -Liliana. Liliana is great, but she is bad against certain decks, most notably, RUG Tempo. I see in multiple posts that people run up to THREE Lilianas against RUG Tempo, and that is absolutely terrible. Liliana is used in grindy, rock-style matchups.

    -Dismember. What is everyone killing with this that makes it better than the other options? Especially if you add Bob to your deck, you cannot play this. Snapcaster + Dismember is actually very bad against aggro decks. Testing against a variety of decks (that include Merfolk...) should show quickly that this usually needs to be Ghastly Demise.

    -No Daze and some lists with no Wasteland. This again leads me to believe that people aren't testing every matchup. Is Daze the greatest card in the deck? Not really, but it is very important. I understand that the nature of a deck primer containing the word "control" will cause people to not even consider Daze, but this deck will get demolished by Fish and other aggro decks (and even Jace) if you don't play the tempo game a little bit.

    I think generally paying more attention to aggro matchups will lead to more success with deckbuilding and in turn lead to higher finishes. There is still a strong package for grindy Jace matchups in our list, but things like 2 Loam maindeck are never going to win you a big tournament with a diverse field (unless you are extremely lucky and have no variance in your matchups).

    For reference this deck has only been played by our group in three tournaments since Snapcaster was printed, and it got 1st at a SCG IQ in Durham, 12th at SCG Nashville, and 13th at SCG Nashville. Since the rise of RUG, we have changed the list to include Unearth.

    Here is the current list:

    4 Tarmogoyf
    4 Dark Confidant
    4 Snapcaster Mage
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    4 Brainstorm
    1 Ponder
    1 Unearth
    2 Inquisition of Kozilek
    4 Hymn to tourach
    2 Ghastly Demise
    1 Smother
    1 Go for the Throat
    2 Spell Snare
    3 Daze
    4 Force of Will

    4 Underground Sea
    2 Bayou
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Creeping Tar-pit
    3 Polluted Delta
    3 Misty Rainforest
    3 Verdant Catacomb
    4 Wasteland

    SB
    2 Extirpate
    1 Surgical Extraction
    1 Ghastly Demise
    1 Darkblast
    4 Pernicious Deed
    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    1 Liliana of the Veil
    1 Life from the Loam
    2 Unearth
    1 Spell Snare
    On the draw, you cannot ghastly demise T2 Stoneforge Mystic, Jin Gitaxias, T1 wild nacatl, etc... I like Bob, though i don't think this deck needs anymore card advantage, you have jace, hymn and Snapcaster already. The deck doesn't usually lose because it runs out of cards, it loses to faster and more aggressive decks. Plus, snapcaster + riptide allows even more card advantage.

    I agree with your point about liliana, she sucks against creatures with flash, people are overrating her indeed. I disagree on daze, you can't be returning lands to hand if you want to take full advantage of snapcaster Mage. T2 Hymn, T4 Snap Hymn is too powerful against combo.

    "I think generally paying more attention to aggro matchups will lead to more success with deckbuilding and in turn lead to higher finishes" Agree, this deck already has a pretty good match-up against combo, you should try to balance them out (combo and aggro).

  5. #45

    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    I don't play the deck and thought you wanted suggestions as to what to run vs aggro in the side.

    As for the Thoughtseize comment I really don't know what you are talking about since I made no mention of discard spells ;o...

  6. #46

    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    Quote Originally Posted by jparula View Post
    On the draw, you cannot ghastly demise T2 Stoneforge Mystic, Jin Gitaxias, T1 wild nacatl, etc... I like Bob, though i don't think this deck needs anymore card advantage, you have jace, hymn and Snapcaster already. The deck doesn't usually lose because it runs out of cards, it loses to faster and more aggressive decks. Plus, snapcaster + riptide allows even more card advantage.

    I agree with your point about liliana, she sucks against creatures with flash, people are overrating her indeed. I disagree on daze, you can't be returning lands to hand if you want to take full advantage of snapcaster Mage. T2 Hymn, T4 Snap Hymn is too powerful against combo.

    "I think generally paying more attention to aggro matchups will lead to more success with deckbuilding and in turn lead to higher finishes" Agree, this deck already has a pretty good match-up against combo, you should try to balance them out (combo and aggro).
    I gotta run to work, but real quick -

    It's true that you cannot kill a turn 2 Stoneforge on the draw with Ghastly *on their turn*. Dismember purely to eot kill Stoneforge is not a good enough interaction to warrant a slot when you can Spell Snare, Force, Daze (if you have to), or mainphase kill it with 4 removal spells on your turn 2. Not to mention you can Inquisiton it away on your turn 1. I'm not concerned about Stoneforge at all; I am much more concerned with cards like Crucible in UW which win the game and there are much less answers to. The positives of Ghastly in addition to Snapcaster outweigh not being able to eot kill a Stoneforge on the draw, which is pretty narrow considering your other options. My plan against creature heavy decks is the straight-forward line of Ghastly turn 1 and 3 or discard early with efficient Ghastly's and other removal in the midgame. The 3rd in the board is also really important.

    Turn 2, turn 4 Hymn is certainly amazing against combo, but I would never cut Daze simply to try to set up this sequence of plays against a highly favorable matchup. You are going to win this matchup regardless, and Daze is an average card against them anyways that you don't have to use if you need the turn 4 Hymn to insure victory. Bob and Hymn warrant a Daze inclusion, as does the fact that opposing Jaces are good against this deck. The Ghastly Demises and Inquistions with Snapcaster really don't care about returning a land. I can see only 2 Daze in a list being fine, but that threat of Daze is just really helpful. It's a card that I board out in certain matchups, and I like to board it out against non-Jace decks when I'm on the draw quite a bit.

    And yeah Kanti, the Thoughtseize comment wasn't directed at you, just a general comment that I didn't mention in my previous post.

  7. #47
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    Congratulations jparula
    Good to have a former deedstill player on-board to have your experience coming in. The fact that you cut 1 mana discard for removal and 1 more spell snare is interesting.

    I feel the discard trades well and makes sure to take away "blowout cards" and important creatures. The information of course also helps to implement agood gameplan. Did you never miss the discard versus combo & control?


    Thank you Patrunkenphat7. I guess if you would have written the primer it would look quite different. The results from you and your group and the playtesting you guys put in prove that your build is very powerful.

    I obviously came to different conclusions, but will definetly test your build.
    My question is: Did you ever test a build close to mine for a longer period? ..and if so what were the problems you had?

    I do agree about wastelands & liliana, so the only open question is confidant I think.
    I think all the differences in the decklist come down to Bob:

    1) You cut Thoughtseize and Dismember as a concequence, which is surely correct. (I also wrote in the primer that these cards cannot be played with confidant). I like your removal suite and the self inflicted damage is an issue, so I am open for new ways.

    2) Another consequence is that you tap out turn 2 a lot mor often (confident & hymn) and therefore reduced spell snare to 2.

    3) Because your primary gameplan is goyf, Daze makes a lot more sense to potentially protect him when you tap out turn 2 versus a counter or removal. The missing land drop hurts for the snapcaster plan though.

    4) Only 2 Jace... well obviously less important with confidant (also 1 expensive spell less)

    5) Unearth ... obv. a lot of value earlier.

    6) 21 Lands instead of 24: You run Daze and confidant.
    This gives me also a bit of a headache, but obviously works for you...

    I cannot agree to the statment that confidant is good versus aggro, because you can draw into more removal. He is very often just killed and you only play 4 removal maindeck. If confidant is killed eot and they follow up with a threat, we are very far beind. What would you rather do turn 2 versus aggro: Bob or Play thoughtseize and trade very likely profitably + have Snare/Pierce/Ghastly Demise open?

    I would really like to playtest Merfolk, Maverick and RUG Tempo with "my" build and your build. This decks are very popular and we have to build BUG with these decks in mind. I think "my" build has a better matchup versus them, because one of their biggest weapon is to disrupt our manabase and Thoughtseize is important versus them!

    So, looking forward to get some testing done and to hear your comments.

  8. #48

    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    @catmint:

    You obviously know what you are talking about, and you did a great job on the OP. We can agree that Dark Confidant is the reason for many of the other changes in the list.

    As far as Dark Confidant being good against aggro, we need to raise the question of "what are the aggro decks in the current format?" Merfolk and Maverick come to mind as the most popular decks winning with creatures, followed by Bant creature-heavy variants and your occassional Goblins and Affinity deck. The fact of the matter is - Lightning Bolt aggro decks like Zoo aren't seeing play, and those players are playing Maverick. Bob is never going to get much work done against Zoo, sure, but it is the main wincon against every deck on this list (minus Affinity).

    With only Goyfs to provide pressure against Fish, for example, this deck just gets blown out by Silvergills and Dismembers. I really don't see how BUG without Bob fights these two cards in Fish. Snapcaster is at best going 1 for 1 with Silvergill, which can't be the case when you don't have nearly enough removal to deal with the rest of the creatures in Fish.

    Against Maverick, you really just need to deal with Mother of Runes and then Jace and Bob just take over the game. Daze eats them alive whereas Spell Snare is actually pretty awful in this matchup.

    RUG - I would say that using targeted discard on the Stifles in the RUG matchup is not what you want to be doing, but it is sometimes necessary. If they aren't tapping out for their 1 and 2 drops, the game slowing down is too much in our favor and their line of play becomes pretty obvious. Bob is excellent against RUG, but it is ONLY excellent because I have 3 Unearths in my 75. Unearth is the best card in this matchup, and Unearthing Bobs is usually how I win.

    I have not playtested Snapcaster/Goyf only, but I have playtested UB Snapcaster/Tombstalker. I have played against BUG with no Bob, as a guy in our playgroup put it together for a few days. I would just crush him in the 'sort of' mirror, and he felt like he could never beat Fish. UW became more of a pain for him, and he pretty much became the disruptive bad aggro deck in that matchup, whereas Bob is just absurd.

    It's really hard for me to answer your bolded question, beacause it depends on so many things, number 1 being what aggro deck you are playing against. You are definitely not always slamming down turn 2 Confidant, and I commit to the 2nd line of play in your question quite often. If it is against Fish and I am on the play, then I will try to strip their hand of the Silvergill or keep Spell Snare up usually (but it also depends on if I have Daze, ect.). If I am on the draw, your 2nd line of play gets a whole lot worse for several reasons (plus you hopefully already used your discard or Spell Snare), but the Daze backup for Bob isn't as good as it is on the play. So again, everything just depends.

    I would just say to playtest these matchups a lot with both decks, like you said. I would like to see the exact list that you are running; I wasn't sure exactly by the opening page (maybe I overlooked it...). By your comments, it sounds like you are running more targeted discard and another Jace, but I am running 2 maindeck so idk. I should also note that I have a lot of experience with Deedstill, but gave it up immediately when Misstep was banned. That deck could be a little similar to some of the lists people are trying to play. PV killing me in the top 8 at Providence really turned me onto that deck, but alas, it feels very unplayable without 8 free counterspells to shore uo its bad matchups.

  9. #49
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
    catmint's Avatar
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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control (Primer)

    I took my list from the guy finishing 12th in the GP amsterdam:
    http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...0&iddeck=51154

    I played around a little bit and ended up changing the Liliana for a deed and the Ponder for a Spell Pierce:

    http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post602954

    I can imagine bob can really make a difference in the mirror or control matchups in general!

    Concerning the aggro creature matchup - you can see that postboard my list overloads on removal. Also Spell Snare and Discard can trade 1:1 with problematic creatures such as silvergill adapt. So the plan is pretty easy:
    1)Trade with them to survive
    2)don't get blown out by KoR, choke, Back to basics, Kira...
    3)make land drops for deed/snapcaster/jace to get control of the game.

    For this simple, effective and most important consitent plan, bob is not needed, because snapcaster, jace and deed provide enough card advantge. Natural land drops without Brainstorming/Pondering for it are however crucial.
    Currently playing: Elves

  10. #50
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control

    TCDecks still lists BUG Control as Team America.

    So far in November:
    Marco Camilluzzi Placed 2nd in a 61 players tournament in Rome.
    http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...3&iddeck=52010

    Óscar Martín placed 5h in a 45 players tournament.
    http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...1&iddeck=51938
    Interesting that he runs 4 Liliana and a "slow" removal suite.

    There are not a lot of finishes in November...mainly because most of the good players just picked up RUG Tempo...

    However BUG Control is a real contender in the current meta as it can adapt to beat creature and tempo based strategies with a core that has a favorable matchup versus combo and control as opposed to the immature little brother Team America wich is incorrectly listed as a DTB.
    Currently playing: Elves

  11. #51
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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control

    Have a yearly Championships this sunday, going to play the following list. Lots was inspired by the talk in this thread, and finally after toying with the colors for months now I feel like this list [always +/- something] is solid, and it gives me confidence.


    2 Ponder
    2 Spell Snare
    2 Thoughtseize
    3 Daze
    3 Vendilion Clique
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    4 Brainstorm
    1 Go for the Throat
    4 Snapcaster Mage
    4 Tarmogoyf
    4 Force of Will
    1 Unearth
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    1 Smother
    2 Ghastly Demize

    2 Trop
    1 Bayou
    4 Seas
    4 Delta
    2 Misty
    2 Catacombs
    4 Wasteland
    1 Creeping Tar Pit
    1 Sunken Ruins

    SB-
    2 Unearth
    4 Leyline of the Void
    3 Pernicious Deed
    1 LftL
    1 Demise
    1 Liliana of the Veil
    2 Spell Pierce
    1 Darkblast

    Either way the deck is a lot of fun thanks to all the goodstuff it's playing. Come good result or bad, I feel good about Sunday.

  12. #52
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control

    Good luck to you!
    I would be afraid to run only 21 lands though... but if you went through the thread you already know what I think about that and running Daze. :)
    Currently playing: Elves

  13. #53
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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control

    Quote Originally Posted by catmint View Post
    Good luck to you!
    I would be afraid to run only 21 lands though... but if you went through the thread you already know what I think about that and running Daze. :)
    It hasn't been that bad, really. And I do want to find place for another land. I'm thinking Daze is doing more for the deck than it probably is.

  14. #54
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control

    Having a free counterspell even if conditional is tempting. The problem I have is the antisynergy with snapcaster mage and the manaintensive control plan in general. Missing a land drop for TA is not that bad, altough i can remember a couple of times where it did hurt. For the good RUG tempo lists which basically curve out at 1 Daze has a perfect synergy. But if you rely on snapcaster, deed, jace,...to win the game daze is not good.
    However, if you look at Patrunkenphat7's list... he runs 21 lands with daze, but his primary gameplan is confidant...
    Currently playing: Elves

  15. #55
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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control

    I tried his list out. Bob is just great to play, no matter what deck. But it just didn't dowhat was necessary to win the game. Drawing an extra card does help towards that, but over all I felt a dissynergy with the deck. I dropped bob for three cliques and an extra ponder. After playing with that, it feels like the whole deck comes together better to provide card advantage and therefore is less fragile than having a 2/1 do it for you.

    I also took your advice into consideration and just cut the Daze all together. One basic island, another threat and an extra removal came in place of those three cards. For a deck wanting to cast Jace, Deed, Clique, and Snappy + X getting to four lands seems manditory. Twenty two lands feels just fine, even with four of them being wastelands.

  16. #56
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control

    How do you beat dredge (not manaless) with extirpate effects?

    Post SB versus dredge I play 4 deed, 2 surgical and 2 extirpate.

    So far I thought it is best to extract Ichorid, Bridge, Cabal, ...
    but I lost more often than I won postboard against bloodghasts, nacromoebas,.. which made the matchup overall pretty bad.

    Now I just won a match where he put Golgari and a Bridge in the yard in the first turn and I extirpated the Golgari, because I had a second extirpate in hand. After a Firestorm he had a very potent GY with an Ichorid, 2 Bridges and another dredger, which I of course extirpated. Like this it was easy to win with my goyf.

    So is it mostly better to go for the dredgers in your experience?
    Currently playing: Elves

  17. #57
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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control

    I play Leyline instead of extirpate effects. The arguements for and against the card are known by all, but I'm more willing to give up four slots for a card that completely blows GY decks out of the water than to go the instant speed removal route. I also played the instants, so I know where you're coming from.

    By the way, the following changes were made to the above list; -3 daze, +1 Tombstalker (threat), +1 Island (crazy about basics), +1 Darkblast (from the side, for a fourth Deed in the side)

    Sideboard is the following:

    4 Deed
    4 Leyline
    2 Unearth
    2 Spell Pierce
    1 Liliana
    1 LftL
    1 Demise

  18. #58

    Re: [DECK] BUG Control

    Quote Originally Posted by jandax View Post
    I play Leyline instead of extirpate effects. The arguements for and against the card are known by all, but I'm more willing to give up four slots for a card that completely blows GY decks out of the water than to go the instant speed removal route.
    Leyline of the Void is incredibly narrow and forces you to be overly aggressive when mulliganing your hands. If you're giving Leyline priority as an in-hand option to start the game, you're going to warp your strategy (especially when starting the game) and in essence putting yourself at risk by putting too much weight on the card itself.

    The card only beats one deck (Manaless Dredge) 100% of the time, and the other decks you'd bring it in against just laugh at such an attempt. Mana-based Dredge variants run Nature's Claim, Ray of Revelation, and/or Chain of Vapor, and Reanimator obviously goes with Show and Tell in addition to other bounce effects. It's not a card you can sandbag like a Crypt or Relic, and it hardly blows those decks out of the water when any competent player who understands the intricacies of how their matchup is played will board in against you accordingly.

    Leyline is just an overall bad card that players cling to for life support when they feel like they can "trump" with it in their opening hand, only to find the risks far outweigh the rewards for a card that any competent player can play around easily. Leyline is just bad unless you start with it at full commitment, which in Legacy is a severe price to pay with so many counter-measures readily available.

    As a Manaless player, there is nothing more rewarding than watching my opponent mulligan into oblivion to find the card, only to miss out on three cards in hand and kill themselves in the process. I also have no problem losing to it as I know that it gives a completely false sense of security to my opponent that it's the optimal choice for their sideboard. Against any other deck, targeted, situational removal is undoubtedly the way to go and is far more crippling than a card which presents itself to be answered generously before the game even begins - with the said player running on typically four to six cards on average to start depending on how much stock they put into it.

  19. #59
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
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    Re: [DECK] BUG Control

    Thanks for the input to Leyline, but my question was rather specific on what is the best way to beat mana-dredge (or manaless) using extirpate effects.

    I know it is situational (i.e. 2 differerent dredgers + a bridge, you will take the bridge,...)
    but I would be interested to hear about how often players try to cribble by taking dredgers and how successful this approach has been.
    Currently playing: Elves

  20. #60

    Re: [DECK] BUG Control

    Quote Originally Posted by catmint View Post
    Thanks for the input to Leyline, but my question was rather specific on what is the best way to beat mana-dredge (or manaless) using extirpate effects.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hollywood
    Against any other deck, targeted, situational removal is undoubtedly the way to go and is far more crippling than a card which presents itself to be answered generously before the game even begins - with the said player running on typically four to six cards on average to start depending on how much stock they put into it.
    Manaless Dredge sees much less play than traditional Dredge variants, which is where targeted removal shines. If you can neuter their engine by hitting Narcomoeba triggers, Ichorids, Bridges, etc., you put yourself in an excellent position to slow them down enough where the Dredge player must refocus their strategy by trying to win unconventionally.

    Mana Dredge suffers a bit harder to "Extirpate" effects due in large part to its lack of consistency versus its Manaless counterpart. Any targeted removal suite can due enough damage where hitting key cards at the right moment can be game-breaking. If the Manaless player slow-plays a potentially quick start, you'll see it right off the bat. This is where allowing them to slow-Dredge becomes fine and you've already won half the battle because now they're playing around your 'hate' and allowing you to do work in the process.

    Extirpate is better here because Manaless runs Street Wraith, which can bring back targeted dredgers in response to Surgical Extraction, although S.E. obviously has its benefits as well.

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