[Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

[jandax]

@Hollywood

I have experienced and appreciate what you're saying. Leyline hasn't been so narrow for me however. It has repeatedly won games it shouldn't have. And all you're saying is less narrow cards do the same. Definitely something to consider in the future. So are you saying that as an experienced dredge player you'd be more affraid of a slow rolled Crypt or a free Leyline? Just want to see the matchup from another angle


Also, fun game today:
Boarded out Discard for Leylines, Deeds.
Mull to 5 on the play against dredge.

Hard cast the Leyline after drawing the right amount of lands on turn four. Got beat down by ichorid, for the last time, and dropped to 7 on the next attack with two zombie tokens.

Cast one of the two Deeds in my hand and rode a Goyf with all these

True story.

[catmint]

Wow.. the dredge player must have had a slow start...

The reason I don't run leyline is because I want to be able to play 1-2 surgical or extirpate against some combo decks or against decks utilizing the graveyard likepunishing fire. Also I don' like to mulligan aggressively versus reanimator, but still want to be able to brainstorm into easily castable hate...

[jandax]

Well, I did kind of nut draw into stuff to trade with his board (wasteland, smother, spell pierce, etc) and then landed the Leyline to shut off his GY. It was elementary from there because at that point I had counter backup for any removal he could draw. I lost the third game because I didn't have protection for the Leyline, free after a mulligan this time, but did also have lands and a Deed. So when he EoT bounced the thing and went off reasonably, I had some time after popping Deed to basically gain life. Never got to recast it after a savage punt. So in a situation like that I can see how slow rolling a Crypt/Extirpate/Extraction could blow them out when they over extend. Makes since.

[berry]

Point is the Leyline-plan is not even half as good vs other decks such as Reanimator, RUG Tempo, Loam, and other graveyard based shenanigans.

It's simply better to versify your answers. (And if a dredge-deck hasn't gone off by turn 4 it had one crappy start, yeah.)

[Patrunkenphat7]

@Berry:
I very much agree. This deck is so reactive and needs to diversify answers as much as possible. Extirpate is great against lots of different combo decks and is the best card against Loam. I will never play 4 Leylines in a deck like this simply for 2 decks: Dredge and Reanimator (and some Loam decks). There are twice as many combo decks out there that I bring in Extirpate against than all Dredge and Reanimator decks combined.

[catmint]

I totally agree to your conclusions about extirpate effects being a lot more useful versus other decks. We just have to accept that our match versus dredge is bad, but winnable with a good draw.

[kiwi]

how do you sideboard against maverick ?
I usually sideboard out 4- fow - 3 spell snare (counters out) -1 Jaces +(3 pernicius deed +4 removal +1 life from the loam )

Against maverick my sideboard plan is playing without counters and with tons of removal, but I dont know if this is correct because if they play a choke , the game will be a headache, I play with 2 creeping tar pit and 2 bayou but also choke is very broken when they play one against me.

May be would be better to keep in fows against mavericks post sideboard ?

[jandax]

how do you sideboard against maverick ?
I usually sideboard out 4- fow - 3 spell snare (counters out) -1 Jaces +(3 pernicius deed +4 removal +1 life from the loam )

Against maverick my sideboard plan is playing without counters and with tons of removal, but I dont know if this is correct because if they play a choke , the game will be a headache, I play with 2 creeping tar pit and 2 bayou but also choke is very broken when they play one against me.

May be would be better to keep in fows against mavericks post sideboard ?

It's best to let them have it. You're boarding out blue cards for FoW. If you want to play to an out, have Nature's Claim or Krosan Grip in your board. Your deck will be much more consistent and painful to their over all game than playing around a Choke will. Plus, from talking to various people who've played with and against Maverick, having Deed plus Perish is rarely stopable. I'd say just keep them off Mom or a Hierarch Turn one, use your discard to hit their spells and mop up with sweepers. Tight play is going to win this match more than any single card will.

[catmint]

Playing a ton of removal, deed is surely correct. However, I board out 2 Tarmogoyf, since I want to deed and he does not win anyway. Jace is the best win-condition therefore I would not cut one. I am boarding out Hymn, because often you cannot play it, since you have to play a removal instead and card advantage can be achieved with deed, snapcaster and jace.

Versus Choke: I play 4 pointed discard maindeck and board in Spell Pierce so I have 3 overall. Spell Pierce is very strong versus: Equipments, Elspeht, Choke, Sylvan Library and Green Sun's Zenith! Still choke will hit you sometimes, but having in force won't help a lot versus that and is a worse choice overall.

My current boarding plan
-4 FoW
-2 Hymn
-2 Tarmogoyf
-2 Spell Snare

+ 3 Pernicous Deed (1 in Maindeck)
+ 3 Ghastly Demise
+ 1 Darkblast
+ 2 Spell Pierce
+ 1 Liliana of the Veil

Loam is interesting... I think wastelanding them out is difficult, but could happen if you also kill the mana creatures...If they have KoR and waste 2+ times, I think the loam won't save us...

[jandax]

Interesting....

I'd leave Snare in because all of their two drops are relevant. One mana counters are better than Force, so some combo of Pierce and Snare feels good as far as permission is concerned. It's not like the deck is constantly tapping out.

I agree with taking the forces out, Goyf's not so much because I always felt the deck lacked enough business. With only two Jaces, I'm not comfortable banking on him to win the game, but will adapt to play for that situation.

I've also dropped the single Liliana from my side, period. Awesome card, but I don't think she has a home in this deck. Miser cards are sweet but I'd rather have playsets of something for consistency's sake. Here's my current list, the only thing I want to change but am forcing myself not to is the addition of basics, and finding some Flusterstorms. That card is pretty nuts for storm matchups

2 Tombstalker
1 Ponder
2 Spell Snare
2 Thoughtseize
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
1 Go for the Throat
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Force of Will
1 Unearth
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Smother
2 Ghastly Demize
1 Darkblast

1 Trop
2 Bayou
4 Seas
1 Island
4 Delta
2 Misty
2 Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Sunken Ruins

SB-
2 Unearth
2 Extraction
2 Crypt
4 Pernicious Deed
1 LftL
4 Spell Pierce

[catmint]

It is interesting that you find it troublesome not having enough business spells. It also reflects in your list which has a very high creature threat density, but only 2 Jace.

The way I play the deck, the issue of not having enough business spells does not come up, since the main focus is to have answers and not threats. Answers in the form of discard, counterspells and removal to have the opponent either:
- empty handed (and no significant board position) so a Goyf can take over or
- empty board, so jace can take over the game.
So, I usually do not play out my winconditions (jace/goyf), before I am not sure that they will resolve/survive.

With snapcaster mage increasing the number of answers (reactive or proactive) it is much easier to implement that gameplan. Too many winconditions are problematic for this plan, since it forces you to play out your threats and somehow ride them to victory. If that would be my strategy, I would prefer to play a tempo deck.

What I would really encourage you to try is to run additional 2 Inquisition of Kozilek. Pointed discard is such a powerful Turn 1 play and very often my turn 3 play with snapcaster mage.

[ivanpei]

So is bob good in this deck? A build with bobs instead of Cliques just T8ed. I like this build because the previous one had quite alot of 3 drops (Cliques, Snapcasters) and Bob is such a bomb. Of course this limits his Dismembers and Thoughtseizes, but I think it's pretty worth it. Sylvan/Top seems like it should help assist in staying alive.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=42528

I don't agree with Sylvan though, now they are too many 2 drops. 3 Jace + 1 Top should be plenty and the life loss from Sylvan + Bob + other spells add up. Deck needs a 2nd unearth now that they are more targets. Looks interesting.

[catmint]

We already had a very good and detailed discussion about Bob on page 3. Patrunkenphat7 and his group developed a Bob version that performs well on the SCG. I only played the build a little bit and it is strong... For now I stick to a build close to the one which finished Top16 in Amsterdam, because I feel less vulnerable with it (especially versus RUG Tempo) http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...0&iddeck=51154

What's very interesting is how many other card choices and the general gamplan is affected by adding Bob (a lot of this discussion on Page 3).

[TheRedBaron]

I piloted this, this past weekend to a 4-0... I'm not sure where this goes, guess it could be TA, BUG, or dreadstalker, minus stalker...

Bottom Line
Manabase was a little awkward, and 4 Dreadnoughts were too much at times. post board, DeeD + noughts were awkward too.

Breakdown
2-0 vs Infect Stompy
2-1 vs. Dreadstalker
2-0 vs RUG Tempo
2-1 vs. Dredge

Top 4
1-2 vs. same Dredge deck (didn't draw any Deeds, game 3)

List
4 Phyrexian dreadnought
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Ghastly Demise
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind

4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn To Tourach
2 Ponder

Land:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
3 Wasteland

board
4 Pernicious DeeD
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Krosan Grip
2 Mindbreak Trap
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Tormod'S Crypt

[ivanpei]

Since Zoo sees very little play, bob is only really bad against Merfolk. I think bob is perfectly fine against GW Maverick. GW's plan is to drop as many disruptive creatures and slowly outgrind you in the midgame. It's not very aggressive on your life total at all. In that case I would say running bob in this meta is perfectly fine IMO.

[catmint]

I piloted this, this past weekend to a 4-0... I'm not sure where this goes, guess it could be TA, BUG, or dreadstalker, minus stalker...

Bottom Line
Manabase was a little awkward, and 4 Dreadnoughts were too much at times. post board, DeeD + noughts were awkward too.

Breakdown
2-0 vs Infect Stompy
2-1 vs. Dreadstalker
2-0 vs RUG Tempo
2-1 vs. Dredge

Top 4
1-2 vs. same Dredge deck (didn't draw any Deeds, game 3)

List
4 Phyrexian dreadnought
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Ghastly Demise
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind

4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn To Tourach
2 Ponder

Land:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
3 Wasteland

board
4 Pernicious DeeD
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Krosan Grip
2 Mindbreak Trap
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Tormod'S Crypt

Congratulations. Looks like an interesting approach to me.

Unfortunately it is a totally different direction than what this thread is about. Your deck is a tempo stifle nought build in BUG and this thread is about a full blown control build abusing snapcaster mage to the maximum. I suggest you post your list in Team America or some UB(x) Stiflenought thread...

[catmint]

Since Zoo sees very little play, bob is only really bad against Merfolk. I think bob is perfectly fine against GW Maverick. GW's plan is to drop as many disruptive creatures and slowly outgrind you in the midgame. It's not very aggressive on your life total at all. In that case I would say running bob in this meta is perfectly fine IMO.

I agree bob would be fine against Maverick... but not insane... Since I want to deed, I rather have no creature on my side of the board. I also love to see Mavericks removal spells dead in their hand...

Also, Merfolk is a good reason for me not to run Bob, since it is a difficult matchup for BUG and you can always expect to play against Merfolk in any tournament.

But my major consideration was RUG Tempo. The confidant build from Patrunkenphat7 had a more fragile manabase and with RUG's daze, spell snare, bolt and dismember I can't see getting a lot of value out of Bob versus them (even with 3 unearth postboard). Fetching early and tapping out for something they can handle plays exactly into their gameplan. Also a card that I really want versus RUG (& any other matchup) is thoughtseize, which would not be available with confidant.

I don't know about the confidant builds matchup versus Merfolk/RUG Tempo in detail, but I think "my" build is stronger versus those decks.

[TheRedBaron]

Congratulations. Looks like an interesting approach to me.

Unfortunately it is a totally different direction than what this thread is about. Your deck is a tempo stifle nought build in BUG and this thread is about a full blown control build abusing snapcaster mage to the maximum. I suggest you post your list in Team America or some UB(x) Stiflenought thread...

Ahh, ok. Thanks. It felt really controlly to me, what about a variant with Drednought + snapcaster :D?

This is what I was thinking:
3 Noughts
4 Snapcaster
4 Goyfs

2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell snare
4 Force
4 Brainstorm
2 Go for the Throat
2 Dismember
4 Stifle

4 thoughtseize
3 Ponder

1 Deed
1 Jace

[ivanpei]

I agree bob would be fine against Maverick... but not insane... Since I want to deed, I rather have no creature on my side of the board. I also love to see Mavericks removal spells dead in their hand...

Also, Merfolk is a good reason for me not to run Bob, since it is a difficult matchup for BUG and you can always expect to play against Merfolk in any tournament.

But my major consideration was RUG Tempo. The confidant build from Patrunkenphat7 had a more fragile manabase and with RUG's daze, spell snare, bolt and dismember I can't see getting a lot of value out of Bob versus them (even with 3 unearth postboard). Fetching early and tapping out for something they can handle plays exactly into their gameplan. Also a card that I really want versus RUG (& any other matchup) is thoughtseize, which would not be available with confidant.

I don't know about the confidant builds matchup versus Merfolk/RUG Tempo in detail, but I think "my" build is stronger versus those decks.

Bob is not too hot against Delver RUG as well as Snare, Bolt or Dismember kills him. In general I dislike RUG delver, the deck is pretty fragile, but it preys on weak manabases like BUG control. It's pretty important to play more coloured sources. Still I'm not sold on either build. I like bobs because you can play aggressive and try to steal the game with quick beats and bob's crushing card advantage. Of course Tempo decks like merfolk and RUG will make quick work of the deck, but everything has a downside.

@ Stifle nought in general: It's cute but usually better in a deck that plays 1 off Nought with Trinket mages to search for it. That way when you have dead Stifles late game, you can search a nought up and turn your stifles into a humoungous threat (usually this is run in countertop builds). In a deck like this you will be using your stifles quite often, leaving nought dead. I recommend + 1 stifle effect. I have a nought + 2 rule. So if you play 3 Noughts, you should play 4 Stifles and 1 Trickbind. If you play 4 noughts, 4 Stifles and 2 trickbinds. Cheers.

[TheRedBaron]

@ Stifle nought in general: It's cute but usually better in a deck that plays 1 off Nought with Trinket mages to search for it. That way when you have dead Stifles late game, you can search a nought up and turn your stifles into a humoungous threat (usually this is run in countertop builds). In a deck like this you will be using your stifles quite often, leaving nought dead. I recommend + 1 stifle effect. I have a nought + 2 rule. So if you play 3 Noughts, you should play 4 Stifles and 1 Trickbind. If you play 4 noughts, 4 Stifles and 2 trickbinds. Cheers.

I agree here. 4 noughts, 5 stifle effects was really awkward at times. I felt 2-3 noughts would be correct number. Especially with ponders/brainstorms + snapcaster, I would see no issues with 4 stifle 2 nought main. Nought may not even be the best in that slot, just wanted to share what I ran :), it sucess to a degree.

Here is my dilemma, I love Hymn to tourach, I just feel like it would be tough running snapcaster + hymn as you would need BBU1 mana to cast properly flashback, and throw in real game factors like your opponents wastelands (as well as your own) and you have trouble.