[Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

[catmint]

I don't think the 24 land manabase is unstable. You make your land drops (miss less than your opponents) and play through wastelands...Wasteland only hurts if the opponents deck has a lot of low curve business going and is accellerating or applying pressure.

Also as written in the primer your own Wastelands are often not used aggressively, but that really depends on the situation. Still playing 4 Wastelands is correct I think... especially if running Loam in the SB.

Concerning snapping back a hymn. Really not that hard to get to and a common play for me. 1BBU sounds tough, but if you look at the manabase it is usually just 4 lands. Getting to 4 lands is also important for Jace, so not an extra stretch for that play...

[jandax]

I agree here. 4 noughts, 5 stifle effects was really awkward at times. I felt 2-3 noughts would be correct number. Especially with ponders/brainstorms + snapcaster, I would see no issues with 4 stifle 2 nought main. Nought may not even be the best in that slot, just wanted to share what I ran :), it sucess to a degree.

Here is my dilemma, I love Hymn to tourach, I just feel like it would be tough running snapcaster + hymn as you would need BBU1 mana to cast properly flashback, and throw in real game factors like your opponents wastelands (as well as your own) and you have trouble.

Then it's probably wrong to keep them in after sideboarding with this style deck. But as mentioned this is less a tempo and more a control oriented deck. About Snapping back a Hymn, if one can then their mana base isn't under any duress. get it

All the hypothetical aside, to me it seems you've pointed out a weakness, but with different style of play it's not the liability it would be.

Edit:

catmint- I play my build either tempo or control in the early game, then after a pivotal turn that I play to (generaly the right play given experience) several spells in the deck begin to end the game. I've added two Tombstalkers because one as a mise was nuts. During that Open tournament I spoke of a little while ago, every game I drew it (three in seven rounds) it won. Two seems to make sure I see one, as a black 5/5 flier for cheap is too much of a tempo swing for many a deck.

I must say I've played with Stifle/Naught, Delver, and Bob in this build over the past few months and think what I have now is the best list for me. It's a pile I know how to play, and it's always interesting to hear how others work their lines out

[bowvamp]

Except that most decks that run wasteland DO apply early pressure. This deck needs its mana (you've said so before), yet comparing early wasteland vs. an early daze, it's easy to see that the daze is better for guaranteeing you that mana at the end game. Wasteland would only be justified if there were lands that need to be hit no matter what. For this deck, those lands aren't that bothersome and the Hymn to Tourachs need double black which wasteland can't provide.

[catmint]

You don't think the deck should run wasteland bowvamp?

I don't think you can compare a daze with a wasteland. When dazing the the drawback causes you to have 1 land less than your opponent. That is very bad for BUG control but not bad for a tempo deck curving out at 2 or a deck with noble hierarch.

Concerning the "must kill" lands. What comes to my mind is Manlands, Karaks, Maze of Ith, Sol lands, Riptide Lab,... But this utility lands are not the reason why wasteland should be played (altough even that might be reason enough to run 3+)

The real reason to play wasteland is the ability to manascrew your opponent when the gamestate suggests it is the best play... There is no need to do so if you need the 4th mana for Jace... with 20 color lands including sunken ruins helping out you hardly have trouble casting hymn. So just the color requirement is not an argument not to run wasteland.

[sumbahdy]

I've been following this thread for sometime now and mostly agree with what Catmint's arguments. Before asking anything, would like to post my list for reference:
Spells: 37
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Spell Snare
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor
3 Hymn To Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozielek
1 Unearth
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Dismember
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Diabolic Edict

Lands: 23
1 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

Some issues:
No Riptide Lab - Do we really need it? It is cute with the combat tricks and of course reusable Snaps but it seems clunky. It does not produce colored mana and the deck itself is already having a hard time maintaining lands in a field of wastelands and stifles. I think riptide is best suited in a two color build with Snaps.

Unearth - I see this a win more card. It isn't everyday that you get to do Unearth --> Snap --> FB Unearth --> Goyf or Clique. Am testing this in the slot of another land. If I would be cutting this, probably another land will take its place or maybe MD GY hate instead.

Maestrom Pulse - I always feel safer with a catch all card in a deck. Its primarily used to hit Walkers and other stuff that could slip past counters and removal.

Six Discard Effects and Four Removal - I've seen plenty of lists posted using 7 discard spells. Isn't that too much considering you would be flashing back at least one of them on the 3rd (Seize/Inqui) or 4th turn (Hymns)? If they do top deck a bomb then your screwed. Also with 7 discard effects, do you keep on firing at your opponents hands leaving them in top deck mode or wait for at least 2 cards and fire Seize or Hymn(obviously)? I ran 6 with only 3 Hymns to lessen the dependency on black mana.

In my build, if I were to run Bob, what should I be cutting?

Looking forward to your responses. Thanks!

[ivanpei]

I can't really comment on the other questions but I feel strongly on these two points:

In snapcaster decks, I only play 1 lab ever. It is absolutely slow ass. If you are activating it in the first 5 turns, there's something wrong. It's one of those ultra late game cards that give you a slight edge. I'll only ever run 1 or none at all.

Unearth is not win more. The card is sexy and should be run as a 1-2 off. It can really turn games around. If you are only playing 8 creatures, I don't recommend it but if you play 10 or more, this card is really good. The crazy snapcaster chain with unearth can create an army out of nowhere. The card cycles too if you really have no targets.

[jandax]

Plus, no one sees Unearth coming. I want to avoid hypothetical talking points, so obviously playing against someone who knows the deck is an exception etc. Unearth lets you trade your Goyf/Clique/designated beatstick for their counter/removal in the early game. Playing into their strategy and then quickly turning the tables by one-uping them on creatures thanks to Unearth is a line your opponent is not ready for. You want to see that card once you start taking control of the game state, at the very least it fits my play style and I embrace the effects it brings to the deck.

Cute interaction:

Cycle Unearth, dredge back Darkblast, win Goyf stand off after combat. But you gotta kind of slow roll it. Snap attacking might lead a good player on.

[jedi_gof]

Why do people keep on insisting playing unearth over reanimate?

Reanimate is, unless you are playing Bob himself, infinately better.

With all your dicards+removal you have acces to all opposing creature, while all your own critters will cost you 2 lives only to bring back.
In my eyes that's a small price to pay for the improved versatility of reanimates over unearth - not to mention the couple of times i have screwed over a reanimator player by countering his reanimation spell and reanimating his target myself.

-jedi_gof

[catmint]

I like the reanimate idea...
however I think unearth is mostly used in confidant builds, because it is a more "creature pro-active" strategy. So the lifeloss does matter...

Concerning too many discard effects sumbahdy.
I play (of course) 4 hymn and the full 2 thoughtseize, 2 inquistion. Yes it can happen that you have some useless discard later on, but I want to start with T1 thoughtseize, T2 hymn, as much as possible. The situation that I dont want more discard because I would rather flash it back is not very common, since there are also other targets to flash back. Since we are a control deck the late game hand where discard is not needed should be able to be controlled with brainstorm (snapstorm) & Jace. If we are in topdeck mode, something went wrong anyway....

I think the confidant build might be slightly different here, but I see the non-confidant build as discard based. Reasons are:
1) Force is often sided out, leaving spell snare and spell pierce as the only counterspells which are very situational. Pointed discard plays a major role in controlling the gameflow by handelding critical spells, which are hard to counter.
2) In g1 the deck plays not a lot of removal, so beeing able to trade versus creatures is important.

[sumbahdy]

I like the reanimate idea...
however I think unearth is mostly used in confidant builds, because it is a more "creature pro-active" strategy. So the lifeloss does matter...

Concerning too many discard effects sumbahdy.
I play (of course) 4 hymn and the full 2 thoughtseize, 2 inquistion. Yes it can happen that you have some useless discard later on, but I want to start with T1 thoughtseize, T2 hymn, as much as possible. The situation that I dont want more discard because I would rather flash it back is not very common, since there are also other targets to flash back. Since we are a control deck the late game hand where discard is not needed should be able to be controlled with brainstorm (snapstorm) & Jace. If we are in topdeck mode, something went wrong anyway....

I think the confidant build might be slightly different here, but I see the non-confidant build as discard based. Reasons are:
1) Force is often sided out, leaving spell snare and spell pierce as the only counterspells which are very situational. Pointed discard plays a major role in controlling the gameflow by handelding critical spells, which are hard to counter.
2) In g1 the deck plays not a lot of removal, so beeing able to trade versus creatures is important.

Thanks for the response. When do you sideout Fow's? With spell snare being rampant do you think hymn is still an option?

I also like the reanimate idea. Downside is that it can't cycle but over all is a nice option given the discards. Will comment on the rug and uw match-ups more after testing. Lost to uw and rug preboarding and would like to see what would the matchlook like with variationsin discard effects.

[catmint]

Thanks for the response. When do you sideout Fow's? With spell snare being rampant do you think hymn is still an option?

I also like the reanimate idea. Downside is that it can't cycle but over all is a nice option given the discards. Will comment on the rug and uw match-ups more after testing. Lost to uw and rug preboarding and would like to see what would the matchlook like with variationsin discard effects.

I side out FoW
- versus almost all creature based deck (not elves) where DeeD and a ton of removal plays a major role (also blue count issue): Merfolk, Goblins, Maverick
- versus every deck running Hymn to Tourach for obvious reasons (also the mirror)
- versus RUG Tempo, because they have a lot of virtual card advantage running only 18 lands and I want to beat them with removal and late game trump!

I side it out pretty often, so I already considered running the same 75, but changing FoW versus more removal and deed in the maindeck and putting them to the sideboard.

A lot of spell snare around is not an argument not to run Hymn, rather an argument for Hymn. Yes, they can counter it in some situations, but Hymn is in general a very very good card versus decks running spell snare. By the way... another good point why 1 mana discard is very important -> makes Hymn much stronger!

The matchup versus UW and RUG is very skill and draw dependent so it is definitely close, but since I figured it out how to play against them I feel to have a slight edge. Mostly because discard is so strong versus them.!

[Arcadia]

I have tested a bit the old TA and this one and I see quite a lot of standard stuff, so maybe it's better to focus on how to play than in lists.

The only think I think people should do is play 2-3 liliana. I only had 1 in the past few events, but it destroyed Maverick, and I think it helps a lot vs bant. And it kills mother of runes, thrun and progenitus.

Saying this, because in the two tournaments I played (not too competitive, 20-30 persons) I only lost to loam (0-1, understandable) and bant. I played 3 times against bant, but I didn't had a good feeling even if I won, but I think that this would change with liliana.

Usually I can kill/discard the small guys at the beginning, but then comes stoneforge or KoTR, so you cannot always kill noble. Liliana avoids this, as you can kill/discard the firsts guys, and then play liliana to keep doing the same.

I played 3 discards, but I felt I wanted the fourth. On the play it is better obviously, on the draw, if you don't have what to do on first or second turn, it's also nice.

About side, do you side in pernicious deed against bant? I always feel it's slow, specially with qasali on the other side. And you cannot leave a KoTR in play as it will bring wastelands, but it also gives you games. Perish and pernicious seems overkill also.

[Plague Sliver]

My new favorite archetype. I'm glad you guys are calling it BUG Control instead of TA, 2 completely different decks.

I started with catmint's list and made a few changes to account for my meta. There are Goblins and Maverick decks every week, hence some of my maindeck decisions.

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Snapcaster Mage

4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
2 Dismember
2 Go for the Throat
1 Ghastly Demise

4 Tarmogoyf

2 Pernicious Deed

2 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:

1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Life from the Loam
2 Krosan Grip
2 Spell Pierce
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Ghastly Demise
3 Extirpate

Because I wanted to run 24 lands (23 I was not-quite-getting-there in a few test games), I had to make a difficult cut of 2 Inquisition from the main. I started with catmint's list of 2 Thoughtseize, 2 Inquisition, and I think that's the right decision in general, but for my meta I much prefer to load up on extra removal. I also found these effects to be surgical in nature - it's not always the right play to play T1 if you can leave up mana for counters / not expose yourself to T1 Wasteland.

Granted, my test sample size is incredibly small and I was a complete lucksack vs. sdematt in testing, but the miser's copy of Loam really helped in the long game. Better than Crucible in this deck.

Thrun was a recent addition vs. mirror type of matchups. Edicts are for the opponent's Thruns :)

I've been reading about how great Lilliana is, I haven't tested her yet but I might make room for 1 in the board. If I were to run her main I'd probably also main Loam.

[catmint]

Good Point Arcadia...discussing how to play the deck correctly versus certain strategies is key..

I did not play that much versus Bant hence my SB & gameplan is not that set. I think my gamplean would be similar to playing versus Maverick, with the difference that we do not have to be afraid of Choke, but of Jace. Since they also have counterbackup I would not like to go full blown board control with just 3 spell pierce and 2 thoughtseize to handle jace, therefore some amout of FoW should stay in. Also Hymn is more powerful versus Bant than versus Maverick, since they do not have that much redundancy/high threat density (no GSZ) and run Force of Will.

My current postboard list versus bant looks like this:

-3 Spell Snare
-2 Tarmogoyf
-2 Force of Will

+2 Spell Pierce (3 Total with 1 MD)
+1 Pernicious Deed (2 Total with 1 MD)
+1 Liliana of the Veil
+3 Ghastly Demise (4 Total with 1 MD)

I think I want 2-3 deed to be able to kill equipments or have a 2 for 1. The reason I don't want it as often as versus Maverick or Goblins is not because of pridemage (since they usually do not run GSZ, but rahter a SFM package), but because of Jace. Versus other creature based decks it is not that tricky....

Concerning Liliana. Love that card... problem is she is not that good with ton's of burn, snapcaster,... around. Also versus Maverick she is not that good, since they can often fetch for Dryad Arbor EOT or flash in Aven Mindcensor. Versus Bant I reckon she is a lot more useful...

_________

Good to have you Plague Sliver!

I like your metagame adaptions. Did you consider cutting force instead of discard? I mean versus Goblins Force is useful because of ringleader/matron, but I still side it out and rely on deed/discard. Versus Maverick Force just sucks and I love the discard in general because of the snapcaster synergy.

[Plague Sliver]

Good to have you Plague Sliver!

I like your metagame adaptions. Did you consider cutting force instead of discard? I mean versus Goblins Force is useful because of ringleader/matron, but I still side it out and rely on deed/discard. Versus Maverick Force just sucks and I love the discard in general because of the snapcaster synergy.

That's a good point, but I think the deck needs to have enough game in G1 against other blue decks and that's why 4x FoW main is the right call. I can always cut 1x or 2x after sideboarding. I'm definitely not one of those "play 4x FoW in every deck" players, but I think in this deck it's warranted.

As for going down to 2x Thoughtseize, that's going to be a gametime decision more than anything else. There's a 50% chance I'll just cut a Go for the Throat from the maindeck again to make room for 3x 1cc discard effects. They are VERY good, and help win the counter-war, so I don't disagree with your philosophy.

Right now I'd like to make room for a Sylvan Library and Loam in the maindeck too, but I think that's too many slots. What's already in there is a solid core and I wouldn't want to tinker with it too much without more testing/tournament experience.

One of the best compliments I got while playing the deck was from sdematt, when he said the deck felt like Deedstill during the Misstep era. Similiar to Deedstill, it takes its time to win, but the feeling of inevitability is great. We also talked about how powerful SCM was, to the point where blue decks could now out-attrition Rock decks.

[sdematt]

Snapcaster was the tits for you in our testing. I hate that guy. Flashing back stuff late-game was horrendous for me.

-Matt

[catmint]

I agree, not running Sylvan Library just hurts somehow. Maybe cutting 1 Goyf, since the situations where I want Goyf in multiples are pretty rare and I often side out 2 if the deck becomes a better "deedstill".

[2sided3angle]

@Catmint:
Very good primer! Been looking at Marijn Lybaert's list from GP Amsterdam and plan on running something really similar to this for an event in January.

Agree with running a 1-of Deed MD but not too sure what to cut for it.

Been trying to get a lot of testing with it under my belt between now and then.

[catmint]

Thanks 2sided!

The only MD changes I did to Marijn's list was to

- replace the POnder with a Spell Pierce (I probably have a selective memory to it beeing useful in a lot of g1 situations - I do not know if this is optimal)

- replace Liliana with deed, because they have a similar role with deed beeing more powerful IMO. Also Lightning Bolt, drayad arbor, aven mindcensor & snapcaster mage are big enemys of Liliana and many decks which are popular and need to be considered run those cards.

[Vuuyi]

Hi all,

This is my first post on this forum even though I've been checking it for quite a while now. Last Saturday(10/12/11) I've played at a small(about 20 people) tournament. I ended somewhere around the 10th place because I made a big mistake. Else I would have gone Top-4.

This is the list:

3#Tropical Island
3#Underground Sea
2#Bayou
2#Island
1#Forest
1#Swamp
1#Riptide Laboratory
4#Polluted Delta
2#Verdant Catacombs
1#Flooded Strand
4#Brainstorm
3#Spell Snare
1#Spell Pierce
4#Force of Will
3#Counterbalance
3#Sensei’s Divining Top
3#Standstill
3#Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2#Smother
1#Dismember
1#Diabolic Edict
3#Snapcaster Mage
2#Vedalken Shackles
1#Liliana of the Veil
3#Maelstrom Pulse
3#Mishra’s Factory

// sideboard
3#Pernicious Deed
2#Extirpate
2#Surgical Extraction
3#Spell Pierce
3#Duress
2#Krosan Grip

Out of the 6 rounds we've played I won three(TES, Raffinity and Hivemind/SnT + Emrakul).

I've lost 3 games to 2 Thresh decks(Nimble Mongoose is a pain in the ass) and 1 to Sneaky Show.

In general the deck ran pretty smooth. I had enough removal spells to eventually win by using Jace or I had an early Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top to lock my opponent.

There were some cards that kind of disappointed me; Maelstrom Pulse and Vedalken Shackles. I boarded the last one out almost every game.

Maybe you guys have some ideas to replace at least the 2 Vedalken Shackles?

Any suggestions or remarks in general are nice too.

Thanks,

Vuuyi