Removing Liliana seems bad unless you have a ton of reactive cards. For reference, here's my list:
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Brainstorm
2 Painful Truths
1 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library
4 Force of Will
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
1 Daze
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Counterspell
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Bayou
Sideboard
2 Duress
2 Flusterstorm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Disfigure
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Golgari Charm
1 Envelop
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Abrupt Decay
Against Miracles, I'll board:
-2 Wasteland
-3 Tarmogoyf
-1 Daze
-2 Force of Will
+2 Flusterstorm
+1 Null Rod
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Garruk Relentless
+1 Abrupt Decay
+1 Envelop
+1 Vendilion Clique
The idea is to upgrade the Goyfs to Clique and Garruk, attack Top, and be able to fend off Entreat. There's an argument for leaving a Wasteland or a Force in and trimming Deluge instead, but that's only if you're sure they aren't on Mentor postboard. If they ARE on mentor I support leaving Flusterstorm in the board and keeping some Goyfs.
I don't feel comfortable removing 'Goyfs, because I believe that once we are out of threats, we've lost. I like 'Goyf, because he hits hard and if he is Plowed, it's usually enough life to get an extra card off Library.
I've never boarded in Flusterstorms, since the only thing I really feel is must-counter is Entreat and they will almost always leave up two mana, due to Spell Pierce. To be honest, I don't even like Spell Pierce in the matchup, since the way I play it, it is going to be a long, long game and they will have the mana to pay for it. To me, the fight almost always come down to a top-deck war, the last think I want to draw is a useless soft-counter. In the same sense, I feel like discard is very weak versus them. Last thing I want to draw in a top-deck war would be something like Thoughtseize.
I don't buy Liliana being bad versus Miracles. She has always been great for me. A threat that doesn't get hit by Terminus or Swords, which are the two answers they (usually) run in multiples. A threat that forces them to play to the board, not sit back. While she is weaker versus the Legends build, she is still good there, since she forces the action. You want to be dictating the pace, not allowing them time to durdle around hunting for answers.
While this will sound crazy, I think there is case to be made for actually cut all the counter-magic and bring in all the removal, including Disfigure, if we know that the opponent is on Mentor or Legends. I've done it before, which certainly catches them off-guard, since they are looking to overload Decay with threats.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Some number of force need to stay in but I agree to an extent. I'm going to try out 2 hymn mainboard. Seize and pierce seem awful against them but envelop is definitely a good card against them.
While I have a somewhat unhealthy love for Hymn, I'm not sure it makes any of the matchups you have trouble with better.Originally Posted by Ricardio
I think one of the best changes you can make would be to get a Library in the sideboard. I'm not quite sold on Revoker, I'd probably slot it in for that.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
I cut garruk. he was too cute imho and we play plenty of threats. Mb I am back at 2 ponder, 2 painful truth. hymn was not what I wanted to be doing. I cut pulse, it was too costly and often times just a more expensive/sorcery decay. I did however see a bug list playing a lumbering falls alongside a CTP. what are your thoughts on it in legacy? 2UG is a lot but 3/3 hexproof is no joke. Also how has jitte been for you? I am thinking about trying one somewhere.
I don't mind Pulse, but it could be an understandable cut. Deed can do more in cases too. I like the catch-all nature of Pulse, because as a tap-out control deck, sometimes Planeswalkers can slip through and it's a pretty clean answer. Space is space though, so you might be right in cutting it.
I haven't tried a Lumbering Falls but I am skeptical it is really better than Tar Pit. I mean, prima facia, the effect is strong and we'd want a 3/3 hexproof, so the question would then be if the cost is reasonable. While the difference between 3 and 4 seems reasonable, in reality the difference between having 4 lands in play and having 5 is really significant. At the end of day, it's all situational, but considering Lumbering Falls is worse in the face of Wasteland (where havng 5 lands seems a lot less probable), I'd say it's probably not worth it. If you are dead set on two manlands though, a split between Falls and Tar Pit is probably fine.
I'm not really sold on Jitte in BUG decks, for the most part. I don't really know it will make any bad matchup better. I'd probably say that it would be considerably better in Shardless, but it's probably ok here. I'm not really sure what it's there to address, but I'm not pretending that Jitte isn't a hell of a card.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Deed is great but we aren't a deed deck. Pulse is great I just felt it was a bit too clunky. I originally had deed in the board but it conflicted with bringing in needle, revoker and null rod.
I totally agree on all your points. I flood a lot so I am on 21 lands atm, I cut a sea. Falls seems great though specifically because I run loam.
Jitte is in quite a few lists and coupled with TNN its very strong. I want to try 1 equipment in the main to put on strix and TNN.
Seize is great against Miracles. It lets you push key spells through in the early game or proactively answer things like Counterbalance, Jace, or Mentor while seeing what their hand is like. It's a lousy topdeck in the midgame when you're both hellbent, but that's what Brainstorm, Ponder, Liliana, and Sylvan Library are for. Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm are for fighting Entreat, counterwars, and their Snapcasrlter Mages primarily, with Pierce also pulling double duty against Jace. The logic behind trimming or cutting Goyfs in the non-Mentor matchups is that I want all of my threats to attack from multiple angles. Clique disrupts Miracles and pressures Jace effectively. Snapcaster is almost always +CA and is excellent when they're trying to overload Abrupt Decay. TNN demands a very specific answer - either a 1-for-1 Terminus, Blast on the stack, or Council's Judgement - and taxes both Blasts and CJ which are also their outs to Jace. CJ in particular is pulled in a bunch of directions - it's their only clean answer to Liliana or Garruk, and Wear/Tear alone probably isn't enough to handle all of your relevant Artifacts and Enchantments.
I can't see how Garruk would seem too cute - I've found him to be arguably better than Jace in the matchup. He just makes a 2/2 most turns, which is an excellent clock that doesn't care at all about removal. He's also an incredibly clean answer to the 2/1 body left behind by Snapcaster Mage, and then Garruk, the Veil-Cursed has two relevant abilities.
As for manlands - I tried Lumbering Falls once and found it to just be too expensive, and unblockability is way better than hexproof in most scenarios we find ourselves in. Also note that with Loam you can protect Tar Pit from Swords with your own Wastelands.
Well I'm resold on garruk. Haha I appreciate all the feedback. It's incredibly helpful.
I need to get over the overwhelming sadness of miracle matchup. I like to grind but terminus makes me wanna go to sleep.
I went garruk-less and played Sunday in a 9 man (stupid prerelease)
R1 RW Prison 2-0 he was new to the deck and didn't get to do much
R2 Elves 1-2 G3 sketchy 7 led to NO hoof ya for infinite.
R3 DNT 2-1 (got to kicker casualties for 2 mirran crusader, 2 mom and 1 sfm)
R4 RUG Lands 2-0 T1 DRS both games and decays for the totems was pretty strong
Played 2 painful truth and they seemed fine. Pierce is not very good so I replaced them with the other 2 ponder but I imagine I will want something else like counterspell or some sort.
I would like to go to 20 lands from 21 but im not sure where to cut, probably a fetch but who knows.
(Re-)Cross-reference Phimus Pan's list from a couple years ago, which reignited interest in this thread (page 42 onward) after Shardless was the primary BUG Control list for a bit. He ran 3/3 walkers, 4 TNN, 3 Tar Pit, 0 Tarmogoyf, 4 maindeck Thoughtseize + 2 maindeck IoK + 2 boarded Hymns. Miracles was less-dominant at the time, but this strikes me as a list with threats built to beat Terminus.
I argued a bunch for some number of Goyfs over TNN at the time, and still would but the main improvement I was in search of was a way to recoup card advantage after a discard->Liliana opening ground the game hellbent (a scenario where CTP and TNN are excellent threats and Goyf is mediocre). SDT seemed too weak and Sylvan Library was great but costly in a 4xThoughtseize deck. Painful Truths might be excellent in that role, and I mean to come back to this if I put Knight+Retreat down for long enough.
Edit: Oh no! 0 Goyfs, not 3.
Last edited by anwei; 01-19-2016 at 11:28 PM.
I'll second this. I obviously haven't been working with the original discard package, and the life lost to Truths might push you toward a 3/3 Thoughtseize/Inquisition split rather than 4/2, but Truths does solve the main advantage Shardless has over this deck, which is the ability to gas back up.
I will try 2 ponder/2 IOK/2 Seize too much hand hate can be bad imho and ponder pulls a lot of weight. Loam is still insane, play one.
Side note: what do you guys/gals think will be good in modern post bannings?
6 discard might be fine or high - I was more drawing attention to that threat base: 6 walkers, 3 tar pit, 4 TNN, 0 Goyf (I typod'! 0 Goyfs, not 3).
I like Goyf, and think 4 TNN might be more than I want. (Though, in the old discussion, parallels with Morphling are drawn as a fantastic grind/defense card which becomes your wincon after walkers/removal take over. That's a different role than in Stoneblade decks, a better +Lily combo, and better against Miracles in a Lily game.)
I think 6 is too many, personally. its fine in modern because you have time to do that stuff. I played quite a few games with 4 last night and it felt very good.
I think no goyfs is wrong and 4 is waaay too many TNN. 2 has served me well. The planeswalkers are great at 2/2. I don't get clogged and I find them when I need them. Still haven't lost a game where I have them both out at once.
I am on 4 goyf + 2 tnn. That has felt right to me. Though the Tnn + jitte would be the first cuts if I wanted some amount of jace (TMS or flip) in the main deck. Jitte has been nice for me because it turns snapcasters and Drs into removal spells. It also fixes a few matchups that can be tough like elves or burn. It is also just a one of but that can absolutely steal games.
I run 1/2 TS main with another in the board plus 2-3 Hymn. I also have 2 spell pierce main as well. I try to keep a varied spell selection because I run 3 snapcasters. It is also why I do not run the Jaces main. I think truths is better because cheaper and works well with snap. Jace is brought in for control/midrange mirrors.
While it obviously could be a fluke, I wouldn't be that quick to dismiss it (though it is a slightly different sort of deck): Phimus did win an Open and thereby put up the best result this sort of deck has had in the current era. One of its obvious strengths (including (especially?) vs. Miracles) is the resilience of its threats, and the discard package (including Liliana) does a lot of work.
@ Hymn, I love this card in the "grind them hellbent" line, but a lot of cards compete for the limited number of 2-drops the deck can sustain, with Decay, Strix, Goyf, etc. (SCM undoubtedly exaggerates this problem, so I guess it makes sense that it takes Jace's place).
Last edited by anwei; 01-20-2016 at 07:44 PM.
I built this deck based on what I wanted to play and I have been making changes to better suit the needs I come across. I understand he won an open with a similar deck in the same archetype but that was 22+ months ago and by thinking 1 win makes a deck, I see your statement as losing a lot of backing due to your only-result-oriented thinking. I have been putting up consistently good numbers and documenting them in this thread. Same with the others who have been graciously collaborating. The meta has shifted a great deal since Phimus won. Take Kennen Haas and his jund depths deck for example, that was doing well, even won an open, and now it is nonexistent. Forgive what comes off as a child like offensive connotation but I have put a lot of work into this deck and I truly enjoy playing it.
Hymn is great but I do not feel it suits my particular game plan. the seizes I play are mostly great except some matchups and 2 more IOK have, thus far, complimented the 2 seizes appropriately. between those 4 and 2 lily, my hand control is at a great point. I am a bit soft counterspell wise mainboard but the 4th fow and 2 envelop sb seem to cover that void. Additionally, I cut the vlique because it was underperforming in its slot. I added back the second painful truth and I have been much happier.
I do feel with my current configuration, I can go down to 20 lands but I fear it will mean cutting a fetch. How many fetches do you want with 4 brainstorms?
@Anwei- I do kind of use snap as the 3/4 drop like a jace. Because of the jitte and slightly more aggressive creature amount I like getting a 2/1 out of the deal. Works well with the large spread of discard, counter, removal plus the bs/ponder digging.
@Ricardio- I like hymn as a discard more than TS only because it allows you to pull ahead on cards. I dont think 1 for 1 discard is wrong but I think the power of hymn works nicely. Of ocurse the turn 1 drs into waste/hymn play is just so fun. I am probably playing in a 4 round tonight so I'll think about cutting them for TS just for testing. Though the 2 life seems relevant when my game plan is also around resolving truths, possibly multiple times via snap.
I run 8 fetches but I think 9 would probably be ideal. The problem is I want 2 of each dual, and with 3 wastes, 1 CTP and 1 of each basic I just ran out of space. I run 21 land I believe, 8 fetch, 6 dual, 3 basic, 3 waste, 1 CTP. Without jace I cap out at 3 mana so I think 21 is fine. I could see going to 20 and in that case I would cut either the basic island or CTP. The fucking basic forest sucks balls in the opening hand soooo much though haha
I like seize because it hits what I want it too and RNGesus doesn't like to be there with my hymns. Hymn is very strong regardless. Best of luck in your tournament.
I think I would cut a single fetch. I love 6 duals, 3 basics, 4 wastes and 1 CTP. Forest and CTP can be awkward but I believe them to be absolutely necessary.
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