[Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

[A21ClownSalute]

Hey all! First time poster! Just wanted to share my 4c List and get some constructive criticism. A buddy of mine and I are planning on playing this at Worcester in a couple weeks. We have tested against many of the "decks to beat" this list feels very good against most of the field and matchups where it struggle become much more manageable after SB. The mana looks rugged but I have had minimal issues. I do think the board is no where from perfect but cards that have been all stars are the Jitte and Ashiok. Anyway, discuss post some criticism. Be hard on it if you need too, just want to read some thoughts.

Cheers all,

Clown

Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 True-Name Nemesis

Sorceries (7)
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
1 Painful Truths

Instants (18)
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Daze
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Kolaghan’s Command
1 Murderous Cut
1 Spell Pierce

Planeswalkers (1)
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (20)
3 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Island


Sideboard 15)
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Fatal Push
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Thoughtseize
1 Marsh Causalties
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Life from the Loam
1 Umezawas Jitte

[theMonster]

Just played against someone on Cockatrice who was running what he said was Tomas Mar's latest 4C control iteration with two Wastelands, a Lili, at least one Leovold, Hymn, K-Command, a Bolt/Push/Decay mix, and a smattering of Strix and Snapcasters. I didn't see any Jaces or TNNs. Anyone know any more about this list? It was pretty powerful.

[LarsLeif]

Tomas Mar's latest deck can be found here: http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...om-the-master/

I don't think it looks that tuned honestly, but he has a particular deck building style.

Regarding the 4c Mega Snapcaster builds I think that the DnT matchup is fine even without the TNNs. If you play the "true" 4c version your mana base is worse, but you should win almost all games you get to cast your spells in. The "UB" 4c deck has better mana but fewer maindeck answers to Crusader etc. But it has a lot of SB dedicated to the deck so I think it is fine vs DnT overall.

I think the meta game sort of adapted quite rapidly to TNN, so I don't see the appeal in it as much as I did a few weeks ago.

[theMonster]

Tomas Mar's latest deck can be found here: http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...om-the-master/

I don't think it looks that tuned honestly, but he has a particular deck building style.

Regarding the 4c Mega Snapcaster builds I think that the DnT matchup is fine even without the TNNs. If you play the "true" 4c version your mana base is worse, but you should win almost all games you get to cast your spells in. The "UB" 4c deck has better mana but fewer maindeck answers to Crusader etc. But it has a lot of SB dedicated to the deck so I think it is fine vs DnT overall.

I think the meta game sort of adapted quite rapidly to TNN, so I don't see the appeal in it as much as I did a few weeks ago.

Thanks for the link. I'd agree that it's an interesting list, and judging from his own words, he's in the process of tuning everything. I'm sure there's a method to the madness and would be curious to hear more from him about his choices and where he sees the metagame.

Regarding TNN, I agree that Pyroblast is omnipresent now, lessening the appeal of a card like TNN (and even Leovold). This makes me want to play non-blue threats like Tombstalker, but they end up being bad against all the Strix running around. I'm considering a white splash for some number of Lingering Souls and sideboard cards like Zealous Persecution, Containment Priest, Disenchant, etc., to both get around the uptick in 1-for-1 removal and Pyroblast. In that case I'd play a Jitte or two somewhere in the 75. Thoughts on that? It's slow and a little weak to Deathrite and doesn't pitch to Force - believe me, I'm aware it's a tough sell - but I've been thinking about it. Pyroblast is strong in the mirror, which is probably the biggest reason not to adopt white if going 4C. But I was wondering if, instead of attacking blue decks on the stack, I could attack them on the board more with white cards.

[LarsLeif]

White has some powerful cards for sure, but it is very hard to turn down REBS with 4 snapcaster mage. They are live against like 75% of the field (all blue decks essentially).

I sometimes miss a good threat to put on pressure in the early game though.

[btm10]

White has some powerful cards for sure, but it is very hard to turn down REBS with 4 snapcaster mage. They are live against like 75% of the field (all blue decks essentially).

I sometimes miss a good threat to put on pressure in the early game though.

I don't hate Tarmogoyf unless you're seeing a lot of the mirror, in which case it's pretty bad.

[LarsLeif]

Yeah I like goyf as well, the thing is though that one of the main draws to this deck is that it doesn't play any "vanilla-esque" creatures that just dies to removal without generating value. You basically don't have to play goyf. But that also means you aren't playing goyf which is worse in a smaller subset of matchups like against Burn, 12p, Eldrazi etc. :p

[btm10]

Yeah I like goyf as well, the thing is though that one of the main draws to this deck is that it doesn't play any "vanilla-esque" creatures that just dies to removal without generating value. You basically don't have to play goyf. But that also means you aren't playing goyf which is worse in a smaller subset of matchups like against Burn, 12p, Eldrazi etc. :p

Yeah, Goyf is definitely medium-to-bad against a lot of stuff right now, but being able to close games quickly (and/or have a threat that doesn't die to Punishing Fire) is also important. Angler and Tombstalker were both fine when I tried them, though they're worse against opposing Anglers and Eldrazi.

[theMonster]

Yeah, Goyf is definitely medium-to-bad against a lot of stuff right now, but being able to close games quickly (and/or have a threat that doesn't die to Punishing Fire) is also important. Angler and Tombstalker were both fine when I tried them, though they're worse against opposing Anglers and Eldrazi.

I've been exploring threat suites, too, and tried this one last night at FNM:

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Tombstalker

1 Bitterblossom

1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// sideboard //

1 Sylvan Library
1 Vendilion Clique

My weekly meta has more DnT and less Pyroblast than average, so I'm still on the TNN/Leo plan. Since I'm already playing maindeck Jitte, I wanted to see how Bitterblossom performed. To my surprise, it was quite good against that room. I boarded it out against MUD and Noble Duke, but it demanded a Flickerwisp and then a Council's Judgment against DnT and ground out my Grixis Control opponent. In a meta that's playing way more Strix and trying to Snap-Push people out of the game, I think using life as a resource and generating some slow value might be decent. Any thoughts on that?

Thanks.

[theMonster]

I have the oddest tournament report ever. I spiked a 20-man GPT today where I had to face Thalia five times en route to victory: three DnT in the Swiss, then double-drew into the #1 seed; Eldrazi-Taxes in the quarters, my round 2 DnT opponent in the semis, and then ... Burn in the finals. I had a feeling I'd be playing against DnT at some point, but almost every round?! Here's what I registered:

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
1 Tarmogoyf
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Tombstalker

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

2 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will

4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Wasteland

// sideboard //

2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
1 Duress
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Collective Brutality
1 Dread of Night
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Sylvan Library

Goyf was actually pretty good today, though I don't expect that to be the case in a normal metagame (or even one with this much Mother of Runes). The basic Forest over the third Wasteland was an experiment, and there were times where it was terrible and others when it made certain starting Deathrite hands keepable. I liked being able to, say, fetch one basic and then get two off-colored duals (Forest + double Sea happened a decent amount). But I flooded out a touch more than I wanted, so I'm considering cutting the Forest for a third Ponder. I think that would both mitigate flood and dig for action/lands when needed. Plus I could use another proactive turn 1 play. I also want to turn one Misty into a Verdant Catacombs. I want to fetch Swamp on turn 1 more than I do Island, and that switch would help.

The Dread of Night and Collective Brutality were all reactions to recent metagame shifts in L.A., and I'm glad I had them. But feel free to turn those slots into whatever you want if you're playing TNNs. The games were pretty interesting, and I'll comment on them if people think it would be helpful. But I just wanted to post this and say that TNN is still pretty good in certain metas ... like my quintuple white weenie gauntlet.

[FZA]

SCG just did a deck tech on Jim Davis's BUG brew. I don't have the full list but it was pretty spicy.

• 3 Leovolds
• 3 Green Sun's Zenith
• 2 Chrome Mox
• 1 SB Mongoose (good GSZ target vs Miracles)

[RobNC]

Here it is: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/...jim_davis.html

[A21ClownSalute]

Hey all! Not much action happening in the threads let's keep it alive. I ended up going to Worcester over the weekend where I ended up with a lowsy record of 5-4. Did make it on camera though(where I played foolishly and lost to Emma Handy) The list I played was the one from a few posts ago with some minor tweaks. I did learn a lot at the tournament After the weekend and talking to some people about the deck I came up with the following version, complete with a SB guide. As always critique and discuss.

Cheers,
Clown

//Creatures (13)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis

//Sorceries (7)
4 Ponder
1 Nights Whisper
2 Thoughtseize

//Instants (17)
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Kolaghan’s Command
1 Counterspell
1 Fatal Push
1 Spell Snare

//Artifacts (1)
1 Engineered Explosives

//Planeswalkers (2)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Lands (20)
1 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp


//Sideboard (15)
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Marsh Causalties
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Fatal Push

Sideboard Guide:

Miracles
IN:
1 Vendilion Clique,
2 Flusterstorm,
1 Invasive Surgery,
1 Grim Lavamancer,
2 Pyroblast,
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest,
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
OUT:
4 Baleful Strix,
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Fatal Push,
2 Lightning Bolt

Grixis Delver
IN:
1 Fatal Push,
1 Grim Lavamancer,
2 Pyroblast,
1 Vendilion Clique,
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest,
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
OUT:
4 Force of Will,
1 Spell Snare,
2 Thoughtseize

Death and Taxes
IN:
1 Fatal Push,
1 Grim Lavamancer,
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Leovold, Emissary of Treast
1 Liliana, The Last Hope
OUT:
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
1 Spell Snare
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sneak and Show
IN:
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Invasive Surgery
2 Flusterstorm
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Pyroblast
OUT:
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Fatal Push
1 Spell Snare
1 Kolaghan's Command
4 Baleful Strix

Lands
IN:
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Vendilion Clique
OUT:
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Fatal Push
2 Thoughtseize
1 Spell Snare
1 Force of Will

Storm
IN:
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Grim Lavamancer
OUT:
1 Fatal Push
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Snare
4 Baleful Strix

Eldrazi Stompy
IN:
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Fatal Push
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Surgical Extraction
OUT:
1 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell

Reanimator
IN:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Invasive Surgery
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
OUT:
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Spell Snare
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Fatal Push
2 Baleful Strix
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Engineered Explosives

Elves
IN:
1 Fatal Push
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Leovold Emisaary of Trest
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Vendilion Clique
OUT:
1 Spell Snare
4 Baleful Strix
1 Force of Will

BUG Variants//Mirror
IN:
1 Fatal Push
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Pyroblast
OUT:
1 Baleful Strix
2 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
1 Engineered Explosives

Burn
IN:
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Fatal Push
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
OUT:
2 Thoughtseize
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Baleful Strix

[lavafrogg]

Is anyone working on the Davis list?

[talpa]

Does anyone know if Jim Davis is active on this forum?
Can anyone make a quick presentation of him for the ones who doesn't know who he is? I mean, I made a very quick search on google and I saw some results and some articles written by him, is he a professional? is he a regular of legacy in particular?

I tested two zeniths months ago but I was unsatisfied and let them go after just a couple of nights.
I am very interested in Davis build but I don't know what to think about the moxens. Sure, they are mana accelerator number 8 and 9; sure, they let you solve blood moon problems. But they are also always card disadvantage; also, almost all the other cards in the deck are bombs, which means I don't want to "pitch" them to the mox.

I would be very happy if he could share with us his thoughts...

[Whit3boy316]

Quick question everyone, why isn't tnn being played. I love me some leovold but I feel like tnn is just great also. I would love to find some room for him in the deck

[A21ClownSalute]

Quick question everyone, why isn't tnn being played. I love me some leovold but I feel like tnn is just great also. I would love to find some room for him in the deck

I've been advocating TNN forever. It helps the decks clock a lot and most decks just can't beat a resolved one game one. Leovold is good and in comes in a lot of matchups but the clock matters a little more. You can look at my list I posted above. It's pretty fine tuned so give it a shot. Made the SB guide too. The deck is very good.

[theMonster]

I've been advocating TNN forever. It helps the decks clock a lot and most decks just can't beat a resolved one game one. Leovold is good and in comes in a lot of matchups but the clock matters a little more. You can look at my list I posted above. It's pretty fine tuned so give it a shot. Made the SB guide too. The deck is very good.

+1 this. TNN helps shore up some of the non-blue matchups like Eldrazi and DnT and can pair well with Jitte against the creature decks. I've been on something similar for a while and am still exploring the archetype, though I play Hymns and three TNNs + Jitte maindeck.

[Baum]

I’m somewhat torn between TNN and Tombstalker. Tombstalker has been great in all the BUG “mirrors” against Control, Aluren, Food Chain and Shardless as long as I can keep Jace off the table. It’s also ok against D&T I think, as long as I can discard or counter a possible StP. It’s nice against Delver, because 2 mana are easier than 3 mana and it blocks Delvers all day.

The thing is, it’s really awful against Miracles and basically forces me to run a couple of Thought Scour, which IS a bad card. With 7 creatures that rely on the graveyard, the deck also becomes really soft to Rest in Peace.

TNN is better against StP decks and would open up the Thought Scour slots. I’m just not sure the deck wants even more CMC 3… I also really enjoy the possibility to close the game out fast with a couple of flying 5/5s.

My list for reference: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=22804&iddeck=176384 (I’m still changing around the SB and right now I’m trying out 2 basics)
I managed to get this lone 5:0, one 4:1 and a couple of 3:2s. Most losses came from Burn, Blood Moon decks and various Delver lists with Stifle. The list feels strong but I don’t think it’s quite there yet.

In general I think these kind of decks should play a couple of heavy hitters, be it Tombstalker or TNN. Getting all the value with Leovold, Snapcaster and Strix is nice, but sometimes you just have to get them dead.

Any thoughts?

[A21ClownSalute]

Let's keep this thread alive!

What do we think becomes of 4c variants after the miracles ban?