You did any full sideguide for this deck ?
Ty!
You talking with me? I could provide you with my humble insight later in the dayOriginally Posted by Tutor
TEAM MtG Berlin
"Dredge isn't a deck, it's public masturbation with graveyard triggers."
haha yeah sorry forgot to quote =DYou talking with me? I could provide you with my humble insight later in the day
thanks !! will appreciate.
Assuming you are playing my 75s:
Grixis Delver:
-4 Force of Will, -2 Tseize
+ 2 Flusterstorm, +2 Hydroblast, +1 Loam, +1 LTLH
ANT
-1 Jitte, -2 Push, -2 JTMS, -1 Edict, -2 TNN, -1 Wasteland
+2 Flusterstorm, +3 Surgical, +2 Hymn, +2 Marsh Casualties (depending on ETW)
Miracles
-1 Jitte, -2 Push, -1 Edict, -1 SCM, -1 Wasteland
+2 Flusterstorm, +2 Hydroblast, +1 KGrip, +1 LTLH (Casualties for the Mentor(s)).
Czech Pile
-4 Force of Will
+ 1 LTLH, +1 Loam, +2 Hydroblast
Eldrazi
-2 JTMS, -2 Tseize (keep them OTP)
+1 Edict, +1 KGrip, +2 Hymn (OTP)
D&T
-4 Force of Will, -1 JTMS
+1 LTLH, +1 KGrip, +2 Casualties, +1 Edict
S&S
-2 Push, -1 Jitte, -2 TNN, -2 AD (Defense Grid? Back in), -1 Wasteland
+2 Flusterstorm, +2 Hydroblast, +1 Edict, +2 Hymn, +1 KGrip
ELVES
- 2 JTMS, -2 Strix, -1 Edict
+2 Flusterstorm, +2 Casualties, +1 LTLH
I mostly covered all the DTB but please take those numbers with a grain of salt, I'm no master with the deck but simply enjoy the most powerful combination of colors nowadays (played a lot of bug based decks - from Bug Delver to Food Chain).
Curious to see your insights too, feel free to comment and report incorrect boardings.
EDIT:
A Sultai Control deck made 25th place at the recent SCG Open, sadly it wasn't featured on camera. Nice addition of Sylvan Library in the side (Loam was cut but I like it more vs Czech Pile) in order to control even more the control matchup; I like the more dedicated discard spell in form of 1 Tourach and 1 Tseize. The deck is gas.
Last edited by meffeo; 03-06-2018 at 03:31 AM.
TEAM MtG Berlin
"Dredge isn't a deck, it's public masturbation with graveyard triggers."
thanks!!!
4-0ed our local tournament yesterday, the deck felt considerably better postboard compared to preboard, since I lost three times in a row the first game of every match. I faced:
Maverick 2-1
G1 I was short on lands despite fetching twice for basic in order to avoid opponent's Wastelands, then died to a Scooze equipped with a Jitte + KotR without finding a single threat.
G2 I led with DRS, he kept a greedy hand and fetched for non basic + Bop, I wasted him and decayed the bird and he never drew a 2nd land. He told me after the third game that he wasn't expecting any Wasteland at all.
G3 He deployed a lot of mana dorks in form of x/1 creatures + Thalia, I had the T3 Casualties that wiped the board and he couldn't recover anymore.
Ruby Storm (mistercakes the man himself) 2-1
G1 I kept a greedy-ish hand with Leo + FoW + 4 lands, he probed me, I played Leo faking a pitch card for FoW, failed to bait since he probed me again and then I died to ToA on T3.
G2 11 cards came in, discard + clock + counterspells + surgical on BW. Hydroblasts shined like bright stars in the darkest night.
G3 Basically same as G2, I had to FoW a Defense Grid.
ANT 2-1
G1 Died on T2 otd thanks to natural ToA.
G2 Opponent mulled to 5, I Tseize + Tourach. Fair enough.
G3 Opponent mulled to 5 (lucky me) and led with CT naming DRS, found one but saw once again Tseize + Tourach. Surgical on IT and that's it.
Aggro Loam 2-0
G1 Four (!) KotR touched the ground (or tried to) and I was able to kill three of them one after the other (Edict, Decay, Strix equipped with Jitte and 5 counters) and FoWed the 4th one, then the same Strix with the same Jitte brought the game home.
G2 We grinded a bit more but I had the full grip all game long; a timely GCharm killed my Strix + SCM but the almighty Brainstorm found two more threats.
Nothing special to add, the deck did its job.
Last edited by meffeo; 03-07-2018 at 10:35 AM.
TEAM MtG Berlin
"Dredge isn't a deck, it's public masturbation with graveyard triggers."
Im the guy who played the deck at the open. I've played the deck at a few local events clean sweeping them handily. It's the real deal, but I think I could cut the edict for either a decay or another hymn, or some other slot like maelstrom pulse or sylvan library. As for the tournament itself, I cant remember every match, but I did lose to miracles, burn and 4c deathblade. Drew vs lands and miracles (I think the lands matchup was gonna be a win). I think the decks I beat in no particular order were; battle of wits, grixis delver 2-3 times, 4c control, elves, storm, miracles, maverick, eldrazi.
I cut the loam because I wanted consistency on redundant effects to make my matchups more consistent. Loam is a unique card for particular matchups, but I dont think its necessary. I split the discard into 1/1, but if miracles is popular I would keep 2 hymns and go to four postboard.
Something to mention is that snapcasters weren't amazing. They were good, but I wasn't always pleased with them. There are a lot of DRS in the format and most of the time I felt forced to snapcast a ponder to get any value. I was looking at older decks of bug control and I noticed lordofthepit23 had played the deck early in 2017 after gp louisville and instead of two snapcaster mages he played gurmags which I could see being good. I was thinking of playing around and trying Tombstalker in that slot, just to play around with the deck.
Hey, guys!
Long time reading, first time writing in this thread. :)
I've been playing with the deck since November/December. I was a Grixis Delver player, but I decided to move to the BUG side of the Force, since I lost a tons of games just for one card: Chalice of The Void. :/
And I have to say that I'm very happy with the deck. It feels very consitent, and play with Decay is a must. :)
For reference, I play with this list:
Creatures [15]
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
Instants [14]
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
Sorceries [8]
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder
Planeswalkers [2]
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Artifacts [1]
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Lands [21]
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
SB
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Flusterstorm
2 Hydroblast
1 Krosan Grip
1 Sylvan Library
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Marsh Casualties
2 Surgical Extraction
I played some 12-16 players tournaments, and always made top 4 in all. The last tournament was a 2 day ago and I finish 2nd with 3-1-0.
My meta is full of DaT, 4C and Grixes Delver. The DaT match up is a really nightmare for me, even playing with Decays.
What do you feel about this match up? I Faced 2 DaT in the last tournament. 1 win, 1 draw. Sometimes I just want 1 Dread of Night in SB, replacing a Hydroblast. But, in a world full of KCommand... :/
Also, I like to know your thoughts on Life from the Loam. I replaced for a Silvan Library... What do you think, guys?
Another question, is about de Snaps... I feel then very mediocres in the most part of time. Every time a drew a Snap, I wish it could be a Tombstalker.
Thanks for your attention.
Greetings from Brazil!
PS: Sorry for the bad english.
Hi mates, I'm new with Team America / BUG Midrange and I'm playing this decklist in Italy, with some top8 in my local tournaments.
4 polluted delta
4 verdant catacombs
1 misty rainforest
4 wasteland
3 underground sea
2 bayou
1 tropical island
4 deathrite shaman
4 delver of secrets
4 tarmogoyf
2 tombstalker
2 liliana of the veil
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 daze
4 force of will
4 hymn to tourach
3 abrupt decay
2 fatal push
SIDEBOARD
3 bitterblossom
2 thoughtseize
2 diabolic edict
2 surgical extraction
2 flusterstorm
1 liliana, the last hope
1 golgari charm
1 marsh casualties
1 toxic deluge
3x bitterblossom: this is an awesome card...the reason why to play 3of is the best possibility to play it in the early game, and win the game...
2x tombstalker: I want to have an high possibility to play it in the mid-game...1of isn't too much.
2x llveil MD and 1x llhope SB: I think that llveil is better maindeck against a lot of matchups, instead of llhope. But I would ask to you the reasons to split 1/1 maindeck...I've never tested together MD yet.
B U G
born by a broken condom. grown in a manger.
twitter.com/toffino
Then maybe this thread is what you are looking for.
TEAM MtG Berlin
"Dredge isn't a deck, it's public masturbation with graveyard triggers."
The D&T matchup is bad enough that I'd make sure you had something beyond Marsh Casualties to mop up their board. I'm partial to Massacre since it hits almost everything they can put out and gets around their mana denial. I'm not a fan of Sylvan Library outside of the Miracles matchup, nor do I like Krosan Grip much right now. I've been very happy with Goyfs over Snapcaster Mages as well. Sometimes you just need a big body.
Awesome list from Lukas Blohon at GP Madrid (they placed 15th, not sure how Lukas did)
This list looks pretty stock. Just a few things I noticed and would love to hear your guys' thoughts too:
- Snapcaster Mage down to one copy. I love this choice, especially with so many of you reporting that he's been lackluster.
- Hydroblast AND Blue Elemental Blast - I LOVE two of these effects. I wonder if you get Therapy'd more often than you need unconditional DRS fuel?
- 4 Hymn and 2 Abrupt Decay - a move that many of you have thought about making. Awesome choice.
- 1 Umezawa's Jitte - Mengucci said that he hates the inclusion of this card in the list. What has all of your experience been with it?
- No Liliana of the Veil - and only Last Hope in the board; this is fairly common but noteworthy as a data point nonetheless.
- Any other thoughts?
Planeswalker (2)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Creature (13)
4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 True-Name Nemesis
Sorcery (9)
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
1 Thoughtseize
Instant (14)
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Fatal Push
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
Artifact (1)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Land (21)
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
3 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
Sideboard (15)
1 Thoughtseize
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Flusterstorm
1 Hydroblast
1 Life from the Loam
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Marsh Casualties
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
1 Toxic Deluge
Last edited by korstructure; 03-13-2018 at 09:11 PM.
MD Changes in Lukas's list:
-1 TNN
-1 Snapcaster
-1 Jitte
-1 Diabolic Edict
-1 Thoughtseize (to SB)
======
+2 Hymn
+2 Push
+1 Ponder
I'm all aboard with 3 Hymn MD, but I'd rather have the 2nd TS over the 4th, just for curve reasons (tho if you're going down on Snapcasters and adding the 4th Ponder, maybe it works out?). 4 Push seems good if you're expecting lots of creature decks, but I'd def prefer to include an Edict, as I have a lot of Marit Lage and Mirran Crusader in my meta.
This list looks tuned specifically for beating up on Grixis Delver. My only quibble is that I really like the proactive TNN+Jitte gameplan, so I'd keep the 3rd TNN (and have the 2nd Jitte in the SB).
SB:
Splitting blasts is a no-brainer IMO, it's not like we're a pyromancer deck (if you play 2, that is - I only run 1). Though I've never missed it in my build, Deluge is a strong card and another Angler answer. Spellbomb over the 3rd Surgical helps with Angler and can be good vs. Pile/Miracles/Grixis/etc. where messing with their graveyard is okay, but not worth a full card. I see R/B Reanimator often enough I'm not sure I'd make that change (tho cutting a Snapcaster makes the 3rd surgical a bit less appealing)
Thanks for posting the list! Overall I really like the direction.
I know can have countless questions about why BUG instead Czech Pile.
We have pros: Stable manabase, Wasteland, TNN+Jitte.
Czech Pile: Greedy manabase, Kcommand, Red package: Bolt, blasts bolt.
So we are better now ? Turbo Depths, Miracles....
Im not sold to Czech Pile yet. And Delver, well....I love Baleful Strix.
Bro, D&T's worst nightmare is TNN with a Jitte. I'd cut a push for the 2nd Jitte and just go ham on em. Jitte is a nice clean answer to Mirran Crusader. Try not to run it out until you can cast+equip, it makes a big difference with all of their shenanigans.
Bug midrange just took down a big tournament in japan 309 players.
http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD43940S/
He cut down the usual number of 3 TNN to 2 TNN and a goyf, 1 leovold for liliana of the veil.
I'm really surprised this deck isn't putting up more and regular positive results and/or people aren't playing it as much as Czech Pile. Midrange BUG is stabler (manawise), it runs Wasteland, and some of the best cards in the format, like True-name Nemesis and Jitte, with the colors to support Abrupt Decay. The only answer I'll accept is "Pile is more fun." No really, why is this deck not doing better?
More allure and variety over at the Czech Pile table which skews the volume of Pile lists showing up at tournaments? Is Kolaghan's Command and access to REB/Pyroblast really the only big reason?
Here are the recent Top8s of this deck from TCDecks: https://bit.ly/2pMpk0b
And here's Czech Pile, which is nearly FIVE TIMES the number of results: https://bit.ly/2E0APoS
Whack lists currently playing:
Rector Nic Fit
Bizarro Stormy
Rest In Pieces
Hey all,
Picked up Sultai midrange again and been playing it at my locals at Dark Sphere, London the last few weeks. Here's my (probably wonky-looking) list:
Key feature is 3 Daze, no planeswalkers. In short, just trying to leverage Wastelands against fair decks, more T1 interaction against broken stuff, don't think PWs are necessary to win in a TNN deck, easy to side Dazes out. This is a non-negotiable aspect of the deck for me now. If I want to play a Jace deck I'll play miracles instead (though I could see playing 1 in the 75 somewhere anyway, not two). Currently the Jitte is the 60th card in the deck, could be a Snapcaster, 4th TNN, 2nd Tombstalker, 2nd Library... and I'm currently torn between Abrupt Decay/Pithing Needle/Null Rod (and swapping the Jitte) as the 15th sideboard card. Otherwise I feel very good about the list. I'm 8-3-1 the last three weeks, but it could be better as I'd say at least one of those losses was certainly winnable and the draw too was avoidable as I could/should have won the G1.
Two reasons I'm posting. I'm not looking for feedback or suggestions about the list for now really, but suggesting it as a different take on the deck that people may or may not want to try. Daze without Delver does look wonky but I honestly think its a necessity if you're trying to have game against everything in the format (which I am). Other thing is that I've been on camera a few times the last few weeks (mostly losing as I'm rubbish!) I'm interested to discuss a play if anyone fancies watching it over:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/243562589?t=02h04m47s
Do you Force here to protect the TNN? I've discussed it with a couple of people and I'm still not sure. My reasoning for not Forcing was that I wanted to hold them as long as possible in the hope of never having to use them, or getting to hardcast them. In the meantime I still have a bunch of good draws that answer the Swiftspear, and I want to keep fodder in hand to put back with a Brainstorm should I draw one. I was also worried about him having TNNs of his own, or a flying creature, which TNN does nothing to slow down. At any rate, didn't feel my position was strong enough to attack any time soon with the TNN anyway. Clearly I'm the control deck in the matchup and holding the Forces would seem to prolong the game and give me further options down the line, but a series of subpar draw steps (1 hit from 4 draws and a Ponder if I recall) ended up handing the lategame back to my opponent.
Commentary was split on my decision, I feel OK about it and I think in fact I made a lot of other more costly mistakes elsewhere that added up to a deserved game loss, but I know at least one person I've spoken to felt that not Forcing cost me the game. So, thoughts?
Not having watched the entire game, I would force here. We generally lose this matchup by getting burned or aggro'd out, not by getting out-carded. TNN severely hampers their aggro plan (esp. b/c you have Decay to answer a potential flyer). Even if you get to 5 land before your opponent can draw out of his mana problems and can force his first two plays, without a clock you're not actually getting closer to winning. I think it's a mistake to think "I'm the control, so I want the game to go long" - esp. if my opponent is stuck on colors/lands, I would want to close the game as quickly as possible and I would value TNN very highly for that reason.
Love the idea behind the list btw - i've been jamming 1 "gotcha" Daze and it's been good enough that cutting the walkers for more is very tempting...
There's a slight contradiction in your logic in that you're valuing TNN to hamper their aggro plan but also as a clock. The problem is that it can't be both, unless I spend the Decay on the Swiftspear and hope they don't have any other creatures, otherwise if I commit to attacking every turn I was expecting to lose that race. So then, the TNN is just a blocker until you find another one. IDK I could totally be wrong but that was my thinking at the time and having mulled it over I think I'd make the same play again, even though the TNN resolving and attacking every turn I THINK would have won me the game as it played out. (would have to rewatch to confirm). I'm open to the suggestion that despite the fact I prefer to play aggressive decks, my intuition just pushes me so hard towards taking greedy and/or conservative lines, and maybe it's something to be aware of and try and adjust long-term.
I can highly highly recommend adding more Dazes, the card is so clutch and really does a lot to address the weaknesses of a tap-out midrange style deck such as this.
Last edited by robx13; 03-28-2018 at 08:25 PM.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote