For me it happend way too often that I was extremely screwed because of the lacking colors of wasteland.Originally Posted by toffee
But I know what you mean. The wastelands were my main reason to quit Czech Pile and move to BUG pre ban.
Don't you think that 21 lands + 4 Hierarch are way too much? I feel like the flood might be real, and the most mana intensive spell (Jace) is easy to cast with 20 lands and 4 dorks too.
TEAM MtG Berlin
"Dredge isn't a deck, it's public masturbation with graveyard triggers."
i will give it a try, but most list with drs played 21 lands too + dont forget the 3 wastelands.
hi mates...with my test I think that this configuration can be the best right now:
4 verdant catacombs
4 polluted delta
1 misty rainforest
3 wasteland
3 underground sea
2 tropical island
2 bayou
1 island
1 swamp
1 forest
4 baleful strix
4 tarmogoyf
2 leovold, emissary of trest
2 scavenging ooze
1 liliana of the veil
1 liliana, the last hope
1 jace, the mind sculptor
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
3 hymn to tourach
3 abrupt decay
2 fatal push
1 maelstrom pulse
1 toxic deluge
1 sylvan library
SIDEBOARD
2 flusterstorm
2 thoughtseize
2 golgari charm
2 surgical extraction
1 invasive surgery
1 life from the loam
1 to the slaughter
1 grafdigger's cage
1 pithing needle
1 liliana, the last hope
1 engineered plague
I've tested against Nic Fit, D&T, White Taxes, Miracle and RUG Delver..
I don't know how can be the matchup against combo, but right now it works fine.
22 lands are necessary right now.....unfortunately...
Last edited by toffee; 07-12-2018 at 03:46 AM.
B U G
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has anyone tested search for azcanta instead of sylvan library ?
I've tested it and....as long as I play green SL >>>>> SforAzcanta. In my opinion, obv.
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why would you want to do that in a format with Wasteland?
against rug delver you grind them out without search for azcanta, if you get to the midgame. search for azcanta is important for the grindy match ups and if our beloved bug-deck is a fringe deck and we face a lot of grixis and miracles it could be useful
Sure. But how is it better than Sylvan in any way?
This one's pretty easy... let's compare.
Both cost 2 mana, 1G vs 1U.
Sylvan allows you to dig 3 cards, immediately VS Search allows you to see only one card until threshold.
Once flipped, Search will dig you 4 cards, HOWEVER, you can only take an instant or sorcery and still only one VS Sylvan, which can take any card type and multiples, at the cost of 4 life.
Finally, Search is vulnerable to things like Wasteland and Blood Moon VS Sylvan, as an Enchantment, which is much tougher to get rid of.
Sylvan hands down is the better card here IMO, though I'd be happy to hear a compelling argument for Search as it's a card I really enjoy playing in standard. Just don't see a place for it in a legacy deck that plays green and has access to Sylvan.
i dont think its that easy
- as i said, wasteland are mostly a factor against decks that play far more aggressive and are a big underdog in a midrange battle. against miracles and grixis (both dont play wastelands) we dont face that problem.
- your right about blood moon
- you can get planeswalkers with it too, not only instants and sorceries
- you can dig 2 deeper (4 at the end of opponents turn and 1 card drawn on your turn)
- you "lose" mana using it, but get extra mana with the transformation
- it was played by some successful czech pile lists in the past
dont get me wrong, sylvan library is an awesome card but i dont think the decision is that easy
"as i said, wasteland are mostly a factor against decks that play far more aggressive and are a big underdog in a midrange battle. against miracles and grixis (both dont play wastelands) we dont face that problem"
- Ok, but against other wasteland decks you will. So in some cases wasteland will be a problem with Search, whereas it's never a problem with Library. Library beats Search.
"your right about blood moon"
- Major factor, potentially. Library beats Search.
"you can get planeswalkers with it too, not only instants and sorceries"
- Yeah, and artifacts, and enchantments. So what? It doesn't grab lands or creatures, Library does. Library beats Search.
"you can dig 2 deeper (4 at the end of opponents turn and 1 card drawn on your turn)"
- You can dig 2 deeper if it flips, if it survives, and if you hold up 4 mana. Library is dig 3 at no mana cost, immediately. Library beats Search in 90% of the cases here and that's me being generous to Search.
"you "lose" mana using it, but get extra mana with the transformation"
- You get one extra mana after it flips, if it flips, if it survives. This is not a big deal whatsoever. Library beats Search.
"it was played by some successful czech pile lists in the past"
- Uh yeah, because they wanted the filtering and they don't have reliable access to green mana. Duh?
This really is a no-brainer.
Post bannings I've been playing a lot of RUG Delver (can we start calling it Canadian Threshold again???), but decided I would try out some discard and Tomb Stalkers, so I sleeved up Team America for a small local tournament.
I would love to get everyone's thoughts on the list especially SB since I threw this together quickly..
12 Creatures:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tomb Stalker
2 True Name Nemesis
28 Spells:
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Fatal Push
1 Sylvan Library
20 Lands:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
SB:
1 Bitterblossom
1 Thoughtseize
1 Krosan Grip
1 Fatal Push
1 Life from the Loam
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Diabolical edict
2 Flusterstorm
The main reason I wanted to play this deck was to see how good the Hymns and Thoughtseizes would be compared to counters like Spell Pierce and Spell Snare. Also, the Abrupt Decays intrigued me. For the creature base...it may be too greedy to play two TNNs, but I think they are so powerful in all the fair matches.
I assumed people would be playing a ton of Reanimator, Dredge, and Miracles, RUG Delver, Stoneblade and Lands... which is what I kept in mind when putting this list together. I'm sure I'm missing something obvious with the SB....
Tournament Report:
I went 3-1 for the night (just a four round Tournament, prizes for top 4):
Round 1 RUG Delver Result: 0-2
Game 1, I got crushed by Stifle/Wasteland and early Delvers and Geese.
Game 2 was much closer with an early Bitterblossom doing a TON of work to keep Delvers at bay, but he drew too many creatures and closed it out with Bolts to my face....
After this match, I really started to second guess the deck choice...the discard seemed clunky and bad when top decking it. I missed Bolts too for added reach. The RUG Gods were clearly punishing me for playing with another deck....
Round 2 UR Delver 2-0
Game 1 against a new player who didn't play optimally. Early Goyfs and Stalkers made quick work.
Game two was a flood of creatures from my side, back my removal for all their's.
Round 3 Landstill/Miracles 2-1
Game 1 went super long. A slow grindy march to my doom.
Game 2 I brought in thoughtseize, bitterblossom, flusterstorm and Krosan Grip (game 3, after seeing Rest in Peace). taking out 4 Daze, 1 Fatal Push.
Another Grindy match, but Bitterblossom proved to be the game winner.
Game 3 He kept a shaky 6 carder and I blew him away with early discard and double Wasteland and Hymn proved too powerful.
I don't know what to make of this result as he was playing the Landstill version of Miracles which is NOT optimal IMO.
Round 4 Dark Threshold (???) 2-1
Game 1, I kept a shaky one lander and was promptly punished by Stifle/Wasteland.
Game 2, I took out the Thoughtseizes and FoWs and brought in Bitterblossom, Toxic Deluge (figured I can sweep their board and still keep my Stalkers), Life from the Loam, Fatal Push and 2 Edicts.
This game proved the power of Tomb Stalker over Nimble Moongoose. My TNN, Flipped Delver and Tomb Stalker fended off her 2 Delvers, 2 Geese, 1 TNN.
Game 3 I had turn two Bitterblossom backed by Daze. Early Delvers and Goyfs were Abruptly Decayed. Double Wasteland sealed the deal.
Her list ran 4 Nimble Mongoose, Stifle, Goyfs, Abrupt Decays, and Fatal Pushes
Overall, I think the deck performed alright... I only got to cast Hymn twice the whole evening. I really wanted to play against combo, D&T, and Miracles to see how the discard would hold up. Overall, I was encouraged by the raw power of Goyf, Tomb Stalker and TNN, the double Blue makes TNN tough to bring down early...but TNN proves to be a powerful finishing spell. I definitely missed the reach Burn gives you in my RUG Delver. But Tomb Stalker is suuuuuch a beast, I want to keep testing...
Would love to hear any thoughts/feedback
Hi mates, yesterday I made an unlucky 4-2 in my local tournament:
4 verdant catacombs
4 polluted delta
1 misty rainforest
3 wasteland
3 underground sea
2 tropical island
2 bayou
1 island
1 swamp
1 forest
4 baleful strix
4 tarmogoyf
2 leovold, emissary of trest
1 scavenging ooze
2 liliana of the veil
1 liliana, the last hope
1 jace, the mind sculptor
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
3 hymn to tourach
3 abrupt decay
2 fatal push
1 maelstrom pulse
1 toxic deluge
1 sylvan library
SIDEBOARD
2 flusterstorm
2 thoughtseize
2 golgari charm
2 surgical extraction
1 blue elemental blast
1 life from the loam
1 to the slaughter
1 grafdigger's cage
1 pithing needle
1 liliana, the last hope
1 toxic deluge
death & taxes 2-1
mono red stompy 1-2 (g1 and g3 blood moon t1)
rug delver 2-0
rug delver 1-2 (g3 lost without any green source, after 3 ponder....with 3 abrupt decay and 3 goyf in hand...delver flipped brought home the match)
jund loam 2-0
ur delver 2-0
FINAL: 4-2
This deck works very well..
- Scavenging Ooze: I've seen it only once, so I can't make a good report about this one right now. Has anyone else tried it?
- Sylvan Library MD: Against delver decks, it isn't the card u want to see. I don't know if is bettere MD or SB. Any suggestions?
- 4 Tarmogoyf / 4 Baleful Strix / 2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest / 2 Liliana of the veil / 1 Maelstrom Pulse / 1 Toxic Deluge / 4 Ponder / 4 Brainstorm / 4 Force of Will / at least 3 Hymn to tourach, 1 JTMS, 2 Fatal Push: They are a MUST-HAVE. They are too strong in this build right now.
- 0 Snapcaster Mage: When I made TOP8 in 125 players, I didn't feel the need to play it. Now, I don't know if 1-2of should be played. I think that Snapcaster shines in Grixis/uwr decks.
- 22 lands: In these days I tested with 21 and 22 lands.. And I decided to play 22 lands to feel more secure. Any suggestions?
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twitter.com/toffino
Hey toffee, 4-2 doesn't sound so bad to me, considering we are still trying to find a working list. I think your list looks solid. Personally I would run some snappys. If you consider some of the BUG-Control list from http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=28008 they all seem to run on 21 lands. Looks weird to me but it worked for them. Most of the lists were running 1-2 Snapcaster Mages and I think Snapcaster is a good card to flash back Cantrips and removal. It's a really nice topdeck in the lategame, too. About your Scavenging Ooze I'm not too sure tho. Feels like you don't have access to that much green mana (if we played Hierarch, Scooze could be good I think, but your list can't support it propperly, I feel).
In my testing I found Baleful Strix to be surprisingly bad. I ended up cutting 2 and still am considering to cut more, because the deck felt so slow and clunky. I think Strix might be better in Shadless Agent builds. There was a 5-0 list which looked similiar to your but it ran 3 Dazes, which I think is quite cool.
I'm still trying out my 6-CMC1-Discards but maybe I gonna switch back to Hymns. Having Hymns ist just really good against the meta right now.
He plays 21 lands because of Life from the loam MD (I don't like it md) and 6 cc3+. In addition, he plays daze to save duals on bouncing and.
In my opinion, Baleful Strix saved me all games at the tournament....at least 3-of in my opinion right now.
About Ooze/Snapcaster: In every game my life points were between 3 and 7.....so bad. Ooze saved me with Jund Loam to remove PFIRE and Loam...I don't know what could be the best configuration.
And about Library MD, what is your suggestion?
Another question, about my list, do u think to cut 1 fetch / 1 wasteland, going to 21 lands?
About this list: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=28008&iddeck=227160
Against Red Stompy, RUG Delver, D&T, Eldrazi, Combo decks? Have u tried this list? I don't know without Strix / Deluge how can win against certain matchups..
born by a broken condom. grown in a manger.
twitter.com/toffino
I've cut 1 Wasteland in my list and added a forest for it so I'm still on 22 lands:
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Forest
2 Wasteland
Maybe I'd remove one fetchland from my landbase but 2 Wastelands are enough in my opinion in such a slow deck with hard mana requirements.
And I agree with you regarding the Baleful Strix. The card is essential for this deck and I'd never play anything else but the full playset.
But, are u testing the list from tcdecks? or another custom deck? and then, can u post your list?
born by a broken condom. grown in a manger.
twitter.com/toffino
This is my current list:
Land [22]
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Forest
2 Wasteland
Creature [11]
4 Baleful Strix
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
Instant [15]
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
1 Diabolic Edict
Sorcery [8]
3 Ponder
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
Planeswalker [4]
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Sideboard [15]
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Hydroblast
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam
1 Bitterblossom
About 3 fatal push, do u think that it is the right number?
In addition, 2 JTMS, with a lot of RUG Delver / Combo decks...too clunky?
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