LOL, I came here to post about this too!Originally Posted by Oestrus
Happy Hump Day!
Honestly, I highly doubt I'll ever play this here in dredge given our other options and lack of mana sources, but I'm happy there's something to talk about.
That said, draw 3 isn't something to sneeze at.
The multiplayer/casual player in me is loving this new set (and the last one), lots of fun cards so far, even if there isn't anything I'd consider a *lock* for Dredge.
I have been watching some led dredge decklists and some of them play with 3 or 4 abrupt decay in sideboard.
Is it worth to play abrupt decay in sideboard? I love the card but it's a quite hard to get 2 lands in play consistently.
Btw, why some decklists run lotus petal in sideboard?
PS: sorry for my english
My best advice is to read the entire thread. Not only will you find the answers your looking for but many other questions you may have. I know personally i've read this thread twice through and its helped me immensely. Please take the time to acknowledge the history and hard work of others that goes into the led dredge archetype thread.
In large part, it depends on whom you ask.
Personally, I don't like Abrupt Decay in the deck. It gets around countermagic, which is big, but it's got a lot of downsides. We need to hit two painlands, Gemstone Mines, and/or Lotus Petals to make it work (out of 8-14 in a deck with no manipulation to speak of), and it does nothing once it's in our graveyard. Cephalid Coliseum does nothing here. Decay also doesn't target Leyline. If you look at, e.g., Serenity, it's vulnerable to countermagic but it doesn't require that we hit two colored sources (neither of which is blue), which Decay needs.
It appears that people run Lotus Petal to boost speed, allowing, e.g., Putrid Imp and a Loot spell in the first turn or to allow a quick Decay if they feel like it's necessary. I'm not sure how important it is悠 tend to run anti-hate and Dread Return targets, and the last time I tested Lotus Petal I simply never found it傭ut it's worth a shot. I'm thinking about putting it in my 'board again.
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New card from Kaladesh might be worth looking at:
Fragmentize - W
Sorcery
Destroy target artifact of enchantment with cmc 4 or less.
It's similar to Nature's Claim since it can hit leyline. And it doesn't have life gain. Only drawback is it's sorcery speed.
Last edited by SHABOOGS; 09-16-2016 at 05:36 AM. Reason: corrected card spelling
Fragmentize
Good catch shaboog's - that's the first card in the set that looks halfway useful.
Compare to Nature's Claim & Natural State.
I'm not sure how much the sorcery speed matters yet....
Well the whole set has been spoiled now - I don't see anything interesting for us besides those already mentioned.
Woooooww, i have been a couple of months out of the game and... .zassss fow in dredge!
I thought that it only worth in the manaless version.
Do we have enought blue source??
Well, I'm going to try to run a quad when I get my hands on two more Forces. Postboard, that'd be 2 PAms, 3 Breakthroughs, 4 Studies, 4 Narcos, and 4 Forces, so 16 pitchable blue cards (17 if people run a fourth Breakthrough). I'm running 14 pitchables postboard right now with two Forces. Also gets around預nd answers佑halice, RiP, and Cage, and it only gets better against Painter. Haven't had much opportunity to test it, but preliminarily I'm sold.
All Spells Primer under construction: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e...Tl7utWpLo0/pub
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Had my best Force story today. G3 vs Miracles. He leads with Top. I Therapy his RiP. Semi go off, discarding his castables, and have 8 power. He tops, fetches, tops into RiP. I draw a 3rd land, swing him to 10. He plays land, tops, passes. I draw Narcomoeba, swing him to 2. He casts Terminus. I draw Stinkweed, cast Narcomoeba. He plays land 4 and passes. I draw Force, swing with Narco, he bounces it with Venser, I cast Imp, pass. He fetches to 1 and windmill slams Baneslayer, which I Force with the Narco he bounced. Swing for 1 with Imp. :)
~ Team Unicorn Motto
To elaborate a bit; I've played in 5 tournaments over the past two months with the Force list, finishing 9th on tiebreakers, 1st, 2nd, 1st, and 10th(deserved). My only losses were to huge amounts of luck; A Shardless empty-hand blind ripping a one-of Spellbomb when it was the only card to save them. A Lands player empty-hand blind ripping a Crop for Bog, then my drawing 12 cards off one each Bthrough, Study, Looting, then Coliseum, without seeing a single dredger. And the like. To one egregious mistake; having two Narcomoebas to deal with Pfire and a represented Marit Lage, and not keeping them back. And, by far the most losses(which still isn't a lot, but...)were to Leyline. Twice I lost to multiple Leylines when I had Chain in hand, and they didn't have Chalice or I had Force for it. So I switched to Serenity, which my testing showed I needed one more mana source for, so I cut the 3rd Fstorm for a Petal. Could have cast it 3 times over, but even with 3 loots and a Bthrough for 3(!), never found one. Lost a 3rd time to that fucking card.
I'm sort of at a loss. I have the slots to devote. Haven't had too many problems with this configuration against other decks. Delver has become a battle due to having little to directly SB for. But it's such a favorable matchup, I'm fine with that. And I've had no mana problems. Could always cast Serenity. Which is worth to cost due to multiple Leylines or Chalice. But I can't resign myself to tossing back a T1-2 win, to mull to anti-hate that they HAVE to open with. Also, I think some of the locals know this, and will mull to Leyline no matter what. It's here where the downside of Serenity shows. Since it's very difficult to mull to it, and find a hand that can both cast it, and fulfill the deck's primary strategy. And Colorless Eldrazi and 4C Loam are a good 10% of the Mid-Atlantic meta right now, so I can't just ignore Leyline.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
I don't know how often it comes up, but Ray of Revelation's major strength is that we can snipe Rest in Peace with its exile trigger on the stack. Sorceries can't do that; then again, Ray's flashback plays a pretty important part there, too.
All Spells Primer under construction: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e...Tl7utWpLo0/pub
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Have you considered Tranquil Domain at all, Damon? I mean, if you're seeing Leyline enough in droves where it's a problem - including cards like Rest in Peace - would something like that be a viable option? It's also easier to cast when you run Cephalid Coliseum (which is the opposite with Abrupt Decay), so perhaps it's worth at least considering as an instant-speed answer to Leyline and RiP if they're becoming an issue.To elaborate a bit; I've played in 5 tournaments over the past two months with the Force list, finishing 9th on tiebreakers, 1st, 2nd, 1st, and 10th(deserved). My only losses were to huge amounts of luck; A Shardless empty-hand blind ripping a one-of Spellbomb when it was the only card to save them. A Lands player empty-hand blind ripping a Crop for Bog, then my drawing 12 cards off one each Bthrough, Study, Looting, then Coliseum, without seeing a single dredger. And the like. To one egregious mistake; having two Narcomoebas to deal with Pfire and a represented Marit Lage, and not keeping them back. And, by far the most losses(which still isn't a lot, but...)were to Leyline. Twice I lost to multiple Leylines when I had Chain in hand, and they didn't have Chalice or I had Force for it. So I switched to Serenity, which my testing showed I needed one more mana source for, so I cut the 3rd Fstorm for a Petal. Could have cast it 3 times over, but even with 3 loots and a Bthrough for 3(!), never found one. Lost a 3rd time to that fucking card.
I'm sort of at a loss. I have the slots to devote. Haven't had too many problems with this configuration against other decks. Delver has become a battle due to having little to directly SB for. But it's such a favorable matchup, I'm fine with that. And I've had no mana problems. Could always cast Serenity. Which is worth to cost due to multiple Leylines or Chalice. But I can't resign myself to tossing back a T1-2 win, to mull to anti-hate that they HAVE to open with. Also, I think some of the locals know this, and will mull to Leyline no matter what. It's here where the downside of Serenity shows. Since it's very difficult to mull to it, and find a hand that can both cast it, and fulfill the deck's primary strategy. And Colorless Eldrazi and 4C Loam are a good 10% of the Mid-Atlantic meta right now, so I can't just ignore Leyline.
The vast majority of the Leyline decks run Chalice, which is it's own issue. Instant speed isn't worth the trade off of removing Chalice as well as Leyline with Serenity.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
So the idea would then be conceding to the fact that Leyline decks (which run Chalice) also shuts down Chain of Vapor. It's also worth noting that these decks that run Chalice with Leyline also tend to run Wasteland, so getting to Decay mana could be tricky if you're trying to wipe that out. Honestly, Serenity seems like it's the most viable option regardless if it's an enchantment that sits around a turn. Those decks also really don't have answers to it, so it seems like the best way to eliminate those problem cards in one fell swoop.
Not to mention the Chain doesn't hit multiple Leylines.
But, yes. I am pretty certain that Serenity is the call. And that my current configuration can support them. Basically just bitching that I've had several big runs spoiled because my opponents mull to Leyline, and I can never find a Serenity.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
I once thought we completely ignored 2CMC sb options or cards in general as the consensus was that we wouldn't be able to reliably cast these cards. I'm only bringing it up because if we determine that this is not the case then get a slew of options at 2CMC regardless of whether they're the most optimal or not. I believe you mentioned yourself Damon that you had to add an additional Lotus Petal (total mana sources?) Is its effect just that good? Do you ever have problems casting it? or do the games go long enough where its not a problem.
Perhaps its just matchup dependent. Like I can't see boarding in Serenity against D & T. I just don't see how I would even resolve that in the face of Wasteland, Port, and Thalia, given the limited number of mana sources we have.
EDIT: I personally play Abrupt Decay at the moment, but I do bring in the Lotus Petal out of the board to supplement them. I have gotten mana naturally to cast these at times without the petals, but its much rarer and unreliable to make me consider running Decay without them.
I think it's obvious that I don't have an issue running 2CMC cards out of the SB. Since I started running Decay with Petals over two years ago. And Wear/Tear before that. And it does open up other SB options, but I don't believe the trade off in consistency is worth it.
That said, I ONLY bring in the Serenities vs Leyline/Chalice decks. Or random outliers like MUD. 14 mana sources is enough to reliably cast them. The issue is that it's not enough to mull to them. That is to say, I don't believe it's worth it to mull a hand that is likely to win if they don't have Leyline, to try and find an answer to Leyline. The odds of hitting the Serenity, the mana to cast it, and action, are too slim. There's the issue. I could run something like Wispmare, much easier to cast. But then you run into the multiple Leyline problem. Or the they still have Chalice problem, because you can't get started through it. And you've devoted the same amount of slots to the problem, diluting your deck just as much. I don't believe that the latter is a better option. Though it does give at least the possibility to play through Chalice, I don't believe the odds of winning there are significantly better.
And for at least the third time; I bring in only Force vs. DnT. I haven't come anywhere close to losing to that deck since this change. It's incredibly easy to either put enough on board to win before their hate, or just counter their hate and do as you please. The White Stompy decks running the full 4 RiP have been almost as easy. I think I've dropped one game.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
Have you considered Energy Field against Leyline? After dropping it you could beat your opponent with Narcomoebas and Stinkweed Imps to death.
One problem is that most opponents don't necessarily mull to Leyline. Decks that also run Deathrite Shaman probably mull to either Leyline or Shaman and Eldrazi pilots to either Chalice or Leyline.
Another problem is that decks that run Leylines could also run Decays or in case of Eldrazi Ratchet Bombs, so dropping Energy Field isn't a guaranteed win.
All in all, this could be one of my many silly ideas :P Just some food for thoughts, you have the experience!
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