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Thread: [Deck] Dredge

  1. #4021
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    Re: [Deck] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by slave View Post
    Took out the BLUE version again this week at the local.
    Maindeck: 13 Lands, 4 Icky, 1 Prized Amalgam, 2 Pimps.
    Sideboard: 1 Ashen Rider, 1 Iona, 2 Dread Return, 3 Firestorm, 4 Force of Will, 2 Lotus Petal, 2 Chain of Vapor.
    Went 4-1
    Beating Burn 2-0, Combo-Elves 2-1, Grixis 2-1, Hypergenesis 2-0
    Lost to Death & Taxes (running maindeck RiP/Helm combo) 0-2

    Force/Vapor came in for Grixis, HG + D&T. Firestorm, DR w Iona for Elves. DR, Iona & Petals for Burn.
    Saw a lot of Force! I lucked out with a flacid Force (no other blue to pitch) twice during the night, but I countered 3 (Ensnaring Bridge, G-Cage, Shardless Agent), with another Force getting Dazed. D&T just ruined me with STP & RiP, and I didn't see Vapor....

    ==============================================================================================

    Now I can say I've run 3, 2 and 1 PA in the main respectively, each over a single meet (4-5 matches each).
    With both 3 and 2 PA's, I ran 3 Icky.

    3 PA's felt like too many.
    2 was good without feeling like it was impacting the deck too much, with one PA I barely noticed it as I didn't actually see it very often.
    I think either 1 or 2 is about right for PA, in future I may lean towards 1 as lately I'm preferring all 4 Icky.
    I really don't want to drop my numbers of Icky, or any Studies/B-thru's for it.
    I think it's a good card, but if I wasn't trying to make Force work (which I'm still not 100% sold on either) I would probably drop it entirely.
    My experiences pretty my place me in agreement with all of this. Unfortunately, the deck is at the point where small margins matter. So it's that awful stage where you need to continually test switching only one card at a time.
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  2. #4022
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    Re: [Deck] Dredge

    Thanks for the feedback regarding Amalgam and Street Wraith! I might start testing again with Amalgam instead of Wraith. I used to run zero Wraith, zero PImp, so I don't feel like I'll be missing it too much, but time will tell.
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  3. #4023
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    Re: [Deck] Dredge

    I was just recently watching the movie Knuckleball!, about Wakefield and Dickey. And throughout, the correlation between knuckleballers and Dredge players just kept slamming me in the face.

    Nobody starts out playing Dredge. It's never an introductory deck to Magic, no matter the format. And even those who have the knowledge to run it initially never choose to. Everybody wants the 96 mph fastball, sort of like Storm. Or wants to paint the corners and eke out every little advantage like Delver. Or even force other players to swing at curveballs and sliders they know they'll never hit, sort of like Miracles. They certainly don't think they'll gain fame and fortune being a junk baller.

    Most knuckle ballers are forced to it by injury, or lack of pure talent. Just like most Dredge players choose it initially as a budget deck. But for the great ones. Hough, Wake, the Niekro brothers, it was a calling. Once they start, going back was never really an option. It becomes part of you. Your identity. In some ways, in life, as well as Magic

    Knuckle ballers do everything backwards. Their grip, wind up, delivery. All range from slightly different, to completely opposite of what other pitchers do. Obviously it's the same with Dredge. To the point, some don't even consider it playing Magic. Your graveyard is your hand. Your library is just a depleting asset. Your hand is usually irrelevant. No one respects what you do. Though most fear it.

    Dredge players rely on the power of their deck, and the fact that it attacks on an axis the most are unprepared for. Also, it preys on Blue based decks specifically, since their primary interactions, which are the most consistent and powerful, don't often line up against what Dredge is trying to do. Knuckle ballers traditionally do best against the better contact hitters. Your Jeter, Olerud, Williams. The smart ones with the great batting average lose all advantage when neither they, nor the pitcher knows exactly where the ball is going. And, in a similar vein, the power hitters can light up a junk baller by just swinging for the fences and getting lucky. Just how a Storm or Sneak just can just blow Dredge out before it even gets going.

    In both cases, the player, and/or the manager has to have real intestinal fortitude. Because the fact is, you don't have any guaranteed consistency. You can throw back to back shutouts, or finish X-0 in running tournaments, then give up 5 runs in the 1st inning. With your performing the exact way each time. Throwing a dead ball it just like dredging into your graveyard. You can be mechanically perfect, and the wind can still carry a slow ball dead into the strike zone. It takes a special kind of person to accept this. And to know that if you just stick with it, the averages will even out. Especially with as much on the line as it is in the Majors or a big Magic tournament.

    Both Dredge and knuckleballers are linear in strategy and paths to victory. But in both cases, you have to know when to switch up tempo within that strategy. To vary tactics. You can push a Knuckleball close to 90, losing a bit of the dead ball effect to shorten the time the enemy has to react. But if you don't drop some of them under 70mph, the batter will catch on. And most likely take you yard. Same with Dredge. The whole LED into Breakthrough is your most powerful play. And one of the main draws to the deck. But if you don't choose to manage your resources carefully and pick your spots, a Crop Rotation into Bog, or a well-timed Terminus is going to end your tournament in a hurry.

    I don't have a conclusion, and I'm sure there's more that I missed. But I just felt like sharing.
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  4. #4024

    Re: [Deck] Dredge

    It's also important that Dredge players have patience and can accept losing to resolved hate (without answer) over a stretch of bad losses. It's okay, it's just going to happen. It's part of being a Dredge player and comes with the territory.

  5. #4025

    Re: [Deck] Dredge

    More so you should just stop carring about losing games to hate altogether, you didn't make a mistake that resulted in your own loss and you can immediately move on to the next game. It's basically the same zen you need in poker whenever you get coolered, oh my KK ran into your AA ... whatever. You basically take turns making the other feel completely helpless to whatever you're doing, tit for tat.

  6. #4026

    Re: [Deck] Dredge

    ======SPOILER ALERT========
    So they've just leaked the new white Recruiter of the Guard. A toolbox card for 3cmc that can fetch up Faerie Macabre, Containment Priest etc etc.
    A card like this makes a mainboard toolbox approach (think Goblins etc.) completely possible in some (already) strong white decks.
    Bugger me backwards. This could hurt us

  7. #4027
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    Re: [Deck] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by slave View Post
    ======SPOILER ALERT========
    So they've just leaked the new white Recruiter of the Guard. A toolbox card for 3cmc that can fetch up Faerie Macabre, Containment Priest etc etc.
    A card like this makes a mainboard toolbox approach (think Goblins etc.) completely possible in some (already) strong white decks.
    Bugger me backwards. This could hurt us
    FFFFFFFFF-

    Storm is gonna take a hit, too...
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    Just in time for Valentines Day 💝

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    Quick question, are you also still waiting for the great pumpkin it did you finally pick it in once December hit?
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.

  8. #4028

    Re: [Deck] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    FFFFFFFFF-

    Storm is gonna take a hit, too...
    I don't think you have anything to worry about.

  9. #4029
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    Re: [Deck] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by slave View Post
    ======SPOILER ALERT========
    So they've just leaked the new white Recruiter of the Guard. A toolbox card for 3cmc that can fetch up Faerie Macabre, Containment Priest etc etc.
    A card like this makes a mainboard toolbox approach (think Goblins etc.) completely possible in some (already) strong white decks.
    Bugger me backwards. This could hurt us
    It's just too slow. The game should be effectively over by turn three. And if you're running FoW, it's definitely too slow. If they start running a bullet Macabre to go with Recruiter, AND they open with it, you could get blown out. I'll take my chances every time. I've yet to drop a game to DnT while running Force.

    Coincidentally, not only will the uptick in DnT be a welcome change, the resulting uptick in Combo should also be good with the Force SB.
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  10. #4030
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    Re: [Deck] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by Parcher View Post
    I've yet to drop a game to DnT while running Force.
    You have a list with FOW? What does that look like if I may ask?
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  11. #4031
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    Re: [Deck] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by Que View Post
    You have a list with FOW? What does that look like if I may ask?
    Quote Originally Posted by Parcher View Post
    I've been noticing a trend away from permanent based hate lately. RiP, Cage, Priest. Surgical is everywhere. And I've been disappointed in running anti hate for things they don't have and potentially losing to what they do. So, for the last little while I've been working on a new plan. Took it to my first tournament today and went 5-2. Lost to Miracles due to him blind ripping his 2nd Top with Top, Mentor, and 3 lands, and zero cards in hand. Then to my having all 4 Narcomoeba in the last 8 cards of my library. Then lost to Aggro Loam. G2 he had Leyline and I couldn't answer it. G3 my opener on the play was LED, LED, Bthrough, Mine, Coliseum, Troll, Chain. He opened with 2 Leylines. My other matches weren't even close.

    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Golgari Thug
    3 Ichorid
    4 Narcomoeba
    2 Prized Amalgam
    2 Putrid Imp

    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Careful Study
    4 Faithless Looting
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Breakthrough

    4 Lion's Eye Diamond

    4 Gemstone Mine
    4 Mana Confluence
    4 Cephalid Coliseum
    1 City of Brass

    2 Lotus Petal
    2 Dread Return
    1 Griselbrand
    2 Firestorm
    1 Ashen Rider
    4 Force of Will
    1 Memory's Journey
    2 Chain of Vapor

    Amalgam is a fine addition. Not as good as Ichorid, but he does have some other advantages. Better vs Miracles. Makes it really hard to get value from Terminus since Ichorid dies before they return. Really good vs Surgical simply through diversification of threat. Especially vs decks like Grixis, which only has Surgical, and now I have a threat they can't trade tokens with. And obviously makes Dread better. Main thing is, well, he's Blue.

    He's the first time the LED version has have enough Blue cards they actually wanted to run to make Force viable. The plan is pretty simple. You don't really need much vs Surgical now. If they run Deathrite you bring Fstorm. Otherwise the Journey plus Dread should be enough. Vs non interactive decks you just go for the Petal plan on the play. On the draw, or vs interactive decks you bring in Force and Chain. It's a bit weak vs Cage, but that's not much of an issue right now. Best part is stuff like Reanimator and Belcher you now have a whole new life against. And much like in Manalaless you have plenty of cards you don't care about pitching. Main thing is, I've found you really don't have a problem keeping LED with Force since you can pretty much sit on one or the other if there's danger. And you don't need to worry about having the wrong answer to hate, unless it's Macabre or Leyline. And Macabre is pretty easy to play around.

    If you don't expect other GY decks, the Journey can probably be the 3rd Amalgam. And I'm going to find room for the 3rd Chain. 8 of the top 16 decks were running Leyline for some God forsaken reason. But I was very happy otherwise. Beat 2 Eldrazi today even so. Had a DnT player drop T2 RiP, T3 Priest, and died on turn 3. Forced both of them. I've found Force is at its best on the draw. When you can Loot into it, or the card you want to pitch. Which again goes back to the Cage problem. You can always Chain with Force backup later. And, of course, you can always just protect your draw spells with it if needs be.

    I don't have another tournament for a month, or I probably wouldn't post this. But I figured what the hell. Have fun with it. It takes a while to learn how to reevaluate your openers but it's worth it. To bring in just Force, I usually cut 2 PIMP and 2 Ichorid. Cut 2 LED if bringing in Chain as well. Usually on the draw. Rest is pretty standard.
    Though the list now is -1 PImp, +1 Fstorm main/-2 Petal,-1 Journey,+1 Unmask,+2 Etruth SB
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    Look, I will suck your dick. I will suck your fucking dick. I will do it, just join my team. I’ll suck your dick. You can fuck me or get fucked by me. You can watch me fuck something. Just point at something, I’ll fuck it for you. Just tell me what you want me to fuck!
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  12. #4032

    Re: [Deck] Dredge

    SPOILER = Sanctum Prelate Looks like we'll have a Chalice on legs to contend with, like the format needed it.
    I think we might need to consider removal we can cast through Chalice effects even more so now, maybe even maindeck.

  13. #4033
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    Re: [Deck] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by slave View Post
    SPOILER = Sanctum Prelate Looks like we'll have a Chalice on legs to contend with, like the format needed it.
    I think we might need to consider removal we can cast through Chalice effects even more so now, maybe even maindeck.
    It's actually even worse than that. "Can't cast" is worse than "counter that spell," especially for anyone still banking on Abrupt Decay.
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    Just in time for Valentines Day 💝

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    Quick question, are you also still waiting for the great pumpkin it did you finally pick it in once December hit?
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    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.

  14. #4034
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    Re: [Deck] Dredge

    If playing against RIP, Containment Priest and Cage still hasn't deterred you then idk how this new card will...

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    Re: [Deck] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by Que View Post
    If playing against RIP, Containment Priest and Cage still hasn't deterred you then idk how this new card will...

    #justundeadthings
    Yep. "Graveyard Hate: Free since 1994."
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    Quote Originally Posted by TsumiBand View Post
    Just in time for Valentines Day 💝

    Roses are red, violets are blue
    Omae wa mou shindeiru
    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Quick question, are you also still waiting for the great pumpkin it did you finally pick it in once December hit?
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.

  16. #4036

    Re: [Deck] Dredge

    You're a hard man Que.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    It's actually even worse than that. "Can't cast" is worse than "counter that spell," especially for anyone still banking on Abrupt Decay.
    Exactly.
    Chalice of the Void - "Whenever a player casts a spell with converted mana cost equal to the number of charge counters on Chalice of the Void, counter that spell."
    Sanctum Prelate - "Noncreature spells with converted mana cost equal to the chosen number can't be cast."

    I agree that Prelate isn't going to matter all that much if we can go off quickly, assuming they're not running maindeck RiP/Helm.
    White is going to have Plowshares, Thalia, Containment & Prelate, not to mention Terminus. That's a minefield.

  17. #4037
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    Re: [Deck] Dredge

    anyone here the guy that won the starcity classic? if so, any report? how was amalgam, how were the forces? how was the maindeck firestorm?
    -rob

  18. #4038
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    Re: [Deck] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    anyone here the guy that won the starcity classic? if so, any report? how was amalgam, how were the forces? how was the maindeck firestorm?
    I believe Damon Whitby is Parcher here. Congrats!
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    We play an Eternal format. Any threat, unanswered, will be your ass in short order.

  19. #4039

    Re: [Deck] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    anyone here the guy that won the starcity classic? if so, any report? how was amalgam, how were the forces? how was the maindeck firestorm?
    I'm assuming good after the result.

    Well done parcher!

  20. #4040
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    Re: [Deck] Dredge

    Forces were nice on the draw for him g3 vs me at least in rnd 6. Won him the game off my mul to five for t2 trinisphere. His shirt in the victor's photo is legendary. Congrats!

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