How big was the tourney? What was the meta breakdown? Congrats.Originally Posted by Digital Devil
"Dredge isn't a deck, it's public masturbation with graveyard triggers."
It was a pretty small event (only 5 swiss rounds + the single elimination stage), so I guess it's nothing worth to be mentioned. The tournament had many different decks, and some of them were kinda weird choices - I saw Aggro Loam, Sneak/Show (with Griselbrand), UW Control, LED Dredge, Maverick, RUG, a couple of UR Delver, MUD (???) and other archetypes I don't remember. BTW, LED Dredge took the 2nd spot ;)
I always loathed the card, but it's a nice-to-have answer, especially against Maverick. I faced a GW deck in the quarterfinals (the only time I brought in Firestorm) but in that particular case it wasn't a necessary tool, as I won 2-0 both times via Breakthrough. It is a good card, and I was close-minded while judging its potential. Have to read my posts just to laugh at myself.
P.S. - Thanks to you all, but my result pales when compared to Hollywood/Parcher/*insert username* performances =)
0.05.14 [Digital Devil] <Digital Devil> Ach! Hans, run! It's the Tarmogoyf!
0.05.17 [Hans (GER)] <Hans (GER)> ...
0.05.20 [<System>] <System> Player Lost
It's always nice pointing the quality of different lists, in this case LED x LEDless. Do you think LEDless had an edge against LED Dredge in this metagame, or you could have done the same result with LED?
I mean, you said Tribes were great, but have you missed LED's at any point?
How was the match against Sneak Show? Did him use Leyline of the Void? Did you won rushing them or just by using Therapies?
Ty for the replies.
So I dug out my old led-less deck and made the necessary changes and this is what I've put together.
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
3 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomeoba
1 FKZ
2 Dread Return
4 LED
4 Bridge from Below
3 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Tanished Citadel
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
SB
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 LotV
4 Nature's Claim
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Putrid Imp
1 Iona
2 Memories Journey
I'm still unsure about the sideboard but the main is basically the same as I used to play but added LEDs and Lootings.
You really want to play Griselbrand, man. It's disgusting. (Assuming it survives in two days.)
@Hokus and K1W1
After messing arround with combo lists, I decided to once again run Quadlaser. And it's just awesome.
My current sideboard is:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Nature's Claim
3 Tarnished Citadel (this should be 2 Undiscovered Paradise +1 Tarnished)
3 Ashen Ghoul
1 Ancient Grudge
A good friend of mine (who hates Leyline of the Void) suggested this configuration:
4 Nature's Claim
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Ashen Ghoul
2 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
Are they viable? What's your opinion on LotV at the moment?
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
Is he nasty in Dredge too? For serious? ATM I play mostly sneakshow, imo the best grislebrand deck, which I switched to from Reanimator which I switched to from Dredge. I'm assuming/hoping Gris will survive. How is he best played in the deck? Does he replace FKZ?
Leyline can prevent your BfB from being blown up. And it gives you time to stomp all over Reanimator before they find an answer....What's your opinion on LotV at the moment?
Eh, I know what Leyline of the Void does. I was asking if it's worth running in today's metagame.
@Griselbrand it won't get the hammer. WotC deslike banning creatures. And Sneak and Show is not dominating the metagame, despite being the Combo of choice for now. In my opinion, it's just like Hive Mind was a little while ago.
As for its use in Dredge, it's kinda fun with Flame-kin Zealot. As fun as Flayer of the Hatebound. But I still vote for Quadlasers for the current best build.
And I hope they unban Earthcraft, which would be really fun :}
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
I think its a good choice for the reasons I mentioned.
It's funny you mention Earthcraft as I just lost to an army of 6/6 squirrel tokens and the person piloting the deck thought the card would be too over-powered.
I gotta say, I'm having an issue figuring out how to board LotV in the Mirror/Reanimator match. For one, you have to expect them to have it too, thus Nature's Claim. Two; You certainly want your own Leyline out as well.. 8 cards seems like an awful lot. As a general rule of thumb I start by cutting the Breakthroughs and go from there. Is LED the right cut after that? Or should we just try to go for a claim hand and explode out asap. I haven't really gotten an opportunity to test said matches and I'm just curious to see how you guys are boarding. Cutting dredgers never sits well with me, and the 8 studies also seem super necessary.
Mirror: Is Therapy even worth it here? Maybe on the play naming claim or something, but it seems pretty narrow. I know the sacrifice outlet is pretty important though... LED seems like the weakest link as it's really only good in your opening hand and you're already hunting for a claim, land, and leyline. :-/ Also, against non-Quad, is replacing FKZ with Iona viable? Naming black to shut down DR seems pretty clutch, as does flying. Here's what I've been trying while goldfishing:
-3 Breakthrough
-1 Cabal Therapy
-4 LED
+4 Leyline
+4 Claim
Reanimator: I'm sort of lost on this. Again with Iona on black to shut down reanimation spells? I'm assuming they run CoV, so it may be a moot point.
-3 Breakthrough
-4 LED (LED, Thug, or maybe even a Looting since your down a few LEDs?)
-1 Pimp
-1 Ichorid
+4 Leyline
+4 Claim (or 2x Ghoul 2x Journey depending if you suspect Surgical over LotV)
+1 Therapy
Like I said, I'm kind of lost on weather to just dump all 4 LED's or focus on "trimming the fat". The alternative, and something I'm seriously contemplating, is just going back to running singleton bullets for specific matchups. IE:
Iona, Elesh, Hypnotist, AoD, or maybe even Archon for Sneakyshow.
Ofc is it awesome. ;)
Actually we are all playing 1 paradise and 2 citadel. You can also play 2 paradise and 1 citadel. But i think to have the chance to activate your cephalid coliseum turn 2 is better. So I/we decided to play only one paradise.
I'm thinking the same with LotV, but in every tourney i play there are some mirror matches or reanimator matches i have to play.
I recommend the first sideboard.
K1w1
My colors are... ZONK!
You haven't any colors. You play Dredge.
You love games, which are unfair. You hate Reanimator & NicFit.
At good days, you destroy everything. At bad days,
you draw Narcomoebas. But the most important thing:
Everybody hates you!
The only time I ever missed LED was against Hive Mind two weeks ago (I played at a 38-men tournament, placed 3rd) - I had two lands and Tireless Tribe on the battlefield and my opponent played Pact of the Titan: if I had LED instead of Tribe I could've paid my opponent's card cost. I still won 2-1 due to Memory's Journey being awesome. I really like Tireless Tribe 'cause it's like an insurance: you can't whiff, and it's great against almost any kind of hate. You can even sculpt your hand while blocking, and then explode if needed. Against U/R Delver I even cast Dread Return targeting the Nomad (my opponent played Surgical Extraction targeting Golgari Grave-Troll and Bridge from Below and I had to block his Goblin Guide) and it made me win. As for the LED vs. non-LED question, I just like the smooth feeling of piloting the latter: I can't say it is strictly better.
In my previous post I actually listed the different decks I've seen, not those I won against. I faced (in no particular order) Maverick, Aggro Loam, U/R Delver, UW Control, Burn with Steppe Lynx, LED Dredge (twice) and accepted to intentionally draw a round (I was first so I thought it wouldn't be a problem). The GPT rule of letting the highest-ranked person choose the starting player was a good thing for me, as I always went first and always kept with discard outlet + dredger + Breakthrough/Coliseum. I was very lucky, indeed ;)
0.05.14 [Digital Devil] <Digital Devil> Ach! Hans, run! It's the Tarmogoyf!
0.05.17 [Hans (GER)] <Hans (GER)> ...
0.05.20 [<System>] <System> Player Lost
You know, I was just trying some different configurations out the other day and I was goldfishing this sixty-card list which, to my surprise, was actually quite good:
// Lands
4 [AN] City of Brass
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
1 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
// Creatures
3 [TO] Ichorid
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
1 [AVR] Griselbrand
2 [FUT] Street Wraith
3 [TO] Putrid Imp
// Spells
2 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [OD] Careful Study
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [DKA] Faithless Looting
2 [TO] Breakthrough
What I was trying to go for here was the ability to smooth out the flow of being able to recur Ichorids while at the same time replacing a Breakthrough with more card draw. Over time, Breakthrough has kind of proven itself to be a card that works best on turn two (or turn one if you have the LED and want to go all in), which is fine and all but requires a setup to do so. The thing I've been liking about Street Wraith is that it still fills several key roles here without being overly 'cute.'
I've also been noticing a disturbing (and just as annoying) trend where I just can't recur Ichorids on a regular basis without holding my potentially single dredger hostage in my graveyard. I don't like that. I want to be able to have some backup so that in the event I need both an Ichorid and the ability to dredge, I can build that black creature count back up there.
I think this is a seriously overlooked aspect of LED variants right now and one that should be addressed. Three Ichorids in a deck with a minimum eleven to twelve black creatures is really not that great when you think about it and can create some potentially awkward circumstances with hands that do not have LED and a draw spell. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. But this list was doing really well in testing.
Of course, proper use of Street Wraith in conjunction with the stack is important as well. It's also good anti-hate for Extraction on a dredger.
I do have to ask, howcome you don't just use 4 breakthrough, replace the 2 street wraith with 2 breakthrough? I myself was toying with how to squeeze in all faithless looting, careful study, cephalid colliseum, and breakthrough, and it came down to breakthrough and careful study on what i couldn't run 4 of, and between the 2, breakthrough is like faithless looting but cheaper, and still dredges for 4 total when everything is done, faithless looting does the same but its 2 and 2 at a total cost of 4 mana, cephalid colliseum obviously stays in because its mana & dredges 3 times, so it came down to going down on careful study, all in the argument on pushing breakthrough anyhow. >^,^<
Last edited by feline; 08-12-2012 at 05:00 PM.
Primary legacy deck High Tide primer
Because Breakthrough sucks when you don't have anything in the graveyard and you have no outlet to set it up. It's an all-in card that typically always gets shifted to the sideboard anyhow.
Between...
4 Coliseum
4 Looting
4 Flashback Looting (off lands or LED)
4 Study
2 Breakthrough
2 Street Wraith
...You're going to facilitate some broken situations. I don't know about you, but I think opening hands suck with Breakthrough, a land and nothing else to show for it on the play. It's dicey at best against a match-up like RUG where they will just counter the Breakthrough on your turn two once you go DDD, and even then, who's to say you'll hit another dredger?
Point being: Breakthrough is more of a liability in opening hands without an enabler. It usually always gets shipped. Street Wraith, however, fulfills multiple roles and still allows me to dredge at Instant speed. I love that. I also love being able to keep my Ichorid chain going, and the way this list has been going, it's has not been an issue anymore. I've been testing it incessantly for the last few days and I have to say so far it's tits.
Plus, check this out: You can use Street Wraith in a hand with no lands, an LED or two, a Looting, and a dredger. You just play out the LED(s), activate the Street Wraith, holding priority crack the LED for three red. Now you're drawing three as opposed to two in a hand that could potentially get shipped with no other action. And it still lets you dredge in the event you kept the hand and the draw spell gets Forced. The card changes the dynamic of the entire deck and fundamentally makes it, for all intents and purposes, better.
It smooths out the flow of chaining Ichorids (giving you a healthy sixteen black creature count), allows you to dredge whenever you want, helps smooth out hands like the aforementioned, is a solid draw off a natural draw with Looting or Study, can give you Threshold early on without any mana investment, protects your dredgers in your graveyard when a Crypt or Relic activation occurs and you have a draw spell in your hand, avoids interaction with an opponent, and grants you protection against Surgical Extraction on your dredgers.
To me, those are critical benefits this deck needs.
What doesn't make sense, U/w Terminus is playing Peacekeeper against Sneak Attack and Reanimator and we can't always win before turn 3 or go off immediately thru' their counter suite on the draw. Considering 1 Darkblast and 1 Golgari Thug are functional replacements for each other in the MD, you can prepare for Peacekeeper by playing 1 Darkblast in the MD and save the SB slot. In addition to metagaming, Darkblast is just useful as a self discarding dredger, creature removal and sacrifice outlet which is a fair exchange to -1 black creature and -1 dredge IMO.
IDK about this trend of cutting Breakthrough, Street Wraith is pretty underpowered and you want a reasonable threshold of cards that can discard your entire hand. I don't think it really matters that we SB the card out the most, as long as it makes us broken and fast game 1 it pretty much does its job for the match.
Right, and the said can be said for the other nine million draw spells in the entire deck. The problem with Breakthrough is that it necessitates having to have either LED and a dredger turn one or a discard outlet turn one or two into casting it turn two. While it has the potential to be incredibly powerful and lets you see up to twelve more cards than any other draw spell in the entire deck, there is a loss of consistency that must be accounted for as you have to mulligan aggressively to find that nutty hand.
In short, Breakthrough really only works best under certain terms. Otherwise, you're looking at a hand with a land, dredger, and a Breakthrough - and that's just awkward against conditional counter-magic when you don't draw into a draw spell and have to go the DDD route - something you really don't want to do with LED Dredge that often.
Street Wraith patches up some serious holes in the deck's fundamental areas like recurring Ichorids, improving opening hands and drawing cards at critical times when you're tapped out. I am not necessarily advocating its use on the whole, but I am saying that from what I've seen after playing this deck for God knows how long is that I am beginning to hate Breakthrough and I blame it for creating even more consistency issues and aggressive mulligans than the deck already has.
I know it's the nature of the beast, and I'll probably shift back to more Breakthrough at some point, but testing this out can't hurt. Nothing is ever set in stone.
Careful Study is the only draw spell that doesn't regularly piss me off for one reason or another, you just have to get over it and play with what you've got, because in combo decks a majority of the cards are conditionally bad by themselves.
I really appreciate any new imput on the archetyp, but in this case I'm highly suspicious.
Lets start right here:Because Breakthrough sucks when you don't have anything in the graveyard and you have no outlet to set it up. It's an all-in card that typically always gets shifted to the sideboard anyhow.
Unless you don't have some sort of enabler Street Wraith doesn't help you in this scenario either ( if we discard for a moment that Street Wraith could draw us into an enabler).
Breakthrough is def. the worst spell for G2 and will usually be cut to a certain extend for g2 in a lot of matchups, however there are also a good amount of matchups where you'll need it ( DDft, ANT, TES, Maverick ( considering that we don't sideboard against them and just try to outrace Ooze / KotR / GSZ), etc.).
Oh and guess what card you'll touch once you sided those 2 Breakthroughs and still need room for other stuff. You won't touch any of the good drawspells I can ensure you.
Basicly the same as above:...You're going to facilitate some broken situations. I don't know about you, but I think opening hands suck with Breakthrough, a land and nothing else to show for it on the play. It's dicey at best against a match-up like RUG where they will just counter the Breakthrough on your turn two once you go DDD, and even then, who's to say you'll hit another dredger?
While you could go for DDD and then draw with Street Wraith at instant speed, but without any other stuff to back this up... yeah doesn't look to hot ( although Street Wraith is certainly better in this scenario, I'll give you that).
And using Breakthrough as a turn 1 discardoutlet isn't the worst thing you can do ( if you mulligan into oblivion).
So you basicly use him like any other drawspell that is paired with LED turn 1? Impressiv.Plus, check this out:[...]
Yeah I get the point that he can't be counterd and that he can be used with LED even without lands, but how high are the chances that you keep a hand without a land ( 12-14), but with a LED ( 4) and a Street Wraith ( 2) ?
As far as the Ichorid chain goes: I can see the benefits he provides here, however I'd rather try to cut the 4th Breakthrough for the 4th Thug / PImp, giving you a count of 15 black creatures, along with the "better" drawspell and another enabler /dredger.
Street Wraith can be used to fuel an Ichroid, yet a resolved Breakthrough will def. provide you with enough fuel for him for a couple of turns.
Unless your opponents don't know how to handle their hate ( and lets face it: we steamroll those people 99% of the time) I don't see many scenarios where Street Wraith really helps ( I mean: how often to we go for DDD and then suddenly get suprised by a Relic from our opponent nowadays).[...] protects your dredgers in your graveyard when a Crypt or Relic activation occurs [...]
Can't argue against that.[...]protection against Surgical Extraction on your dredgers.
So far you have only goldfished the list and I'm really looking forward for actual tournament results to see if they are worth the slots.
Again: Don't get me wrong, I really like new ideas in order to keep the deck fresh and fun ( I'm going to play Manaless Dredge for the first time tomorrow, hope it will be a ton of fun), but this idea reminds me alot of Tortured Existence.
You brought it up, people discussed a couple of pages about it and now no one plays it anymore.
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