[Deck] Dredge

[birdbrains]

Mtggoldfish lists the deck for like $225, but I was able to shave a few bucks by shopping around and picking up foils where they were cheaper.

The chains definitely feel better in those slots than the surgicals did for me. They're just a lot more flexible, and deal with some problematic matchups fairly well. I might bring back one surgical, in place of the Ashen Rider, as an out to loam shenanigans.

[mistercakes]

would you guys be interested in having a slack channel for dredge players?

it's a good place to have better real time chat if someone is streaming and it's easier to use over mobile.

[vieko]

would you guys be interested in having a slack channel for dredge players?

Make this happen!

[jimmythegreek]

First place (split with opponent) I.q. 60 man tournament at gaming etc.
Miracles 1-2
Maverick 2-0
Elves 2-0
12post 2-1
Miracles 2-0
Lands 2-1

Ended up seeded first overall
First opponent scooped as he had other prior engagements.
Death and taxes 2-0
Split in the finals to grixis delver. Opponent gave me the win as he already had an invite. I always say I'd play it out given the opportunity but my opponent and I were smoked.

[mistercakes]

i made a slack for dredge players that want to have better communication. if you PM me the email address you plan on using for it, i'll go ahead and add you to it.

-Rob

[birdbrains]

I downloaded that slack deal, my email is mhall1989@gmail.com if you want to add me to it.

I'm looking at getting streaming set up in the next week or so. If I can wake up early enough to get things figured out, I might do a trial run tomorrow afternoon at the 12:30 or 4 pm dailies.

[slave]

First place (split with opponent) I.q. 60 man tournament at gaming etc.

Well done!
What side were you running? And do you see any changes that might be needed?

[meffeo]

i made a slack for dredge players that want to have better communication. if you PM me the email address you plan on using for it, i'll go ahead and add you to it.

-Rob

Added. Thanks for the effort, mate.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

[jimmythegreek]

Good evening (said in a Count Dracula voice) Slave and fellow grave-enthusiasts.
Be forewarned and please don't expect a report as I can't comprehend taking notes plus playing the game.
My main-deck was a tried and true quad-laser minus an imp and breakthrough adding city of brass along with a single dread return. The deck ran super well and seemed to avoid the variance bug for most the day. Putrid imp was awesome on the play when it resolved allowing for busted turn twos often incorporating my favorite card breakthrough. For all the talk against pimp he totally served his purpose and then some. My singleton dread return was excellent allowing multiple 12/12 and 11/11 trolls to wreak havoc on opponents weak boards. I'm throughly convinced that besides ashen rider no other singleton targets are necessary to run. Cabal therapy and led were the Mvps all day. What did I learn? We want to be fast and fast starts are what win most games.

Sideboard:
3 natures claim (did some work saving my ass maybe twice?)
4 leyline of the void (came in against lands and that's about it, all in all a good card though.)
2 unmask (no clue how these made it into my deck box.....out!)
1 ashen rider (never saw it but good none the less, lands is really popular on the east coast.)
3 firestorm (good against creatures and I think it has value being uncounterable.)
1 dread return (keep as I'm keeping rider in the board.)
1 Iona (meh, maybe dead weight?)

Biggest lesson learned was don't over board with this deck and make them have the hate. Best sideboard card, that's easy, natures claim. All in all the sideboard in dredge didn't really determine my wins, more often than not it was the dark art of dredge and being a good cabal therapist. I think Richard Feldman's approach as less is more was pretty spot on and if you haven't given his age-old article "the dark art of dredge-fu" a good read then I highly suggest it to every dredge enthusiast. Sorry for the super vague report, although any specific questions I may do better at answering.

[Oestrus]

Congratulations, Jimmy!

[mistercakes]

Good evening (said in a Count Dracula voice) Slave and fellow grave-enthusiasts.
Be forewarned and please don't expect a report as I can't comprehend taking notes plus playing the game.
My main-deck was a tried and true quad-laser minus an imp and breakthrough adding city of brass along with a single dread return. The deck ran super well and seemed to avoid the variance bug for most the day. Putrid imp was awesome on the play when it resolved allowing for busted turn twos often incorporating my favorite card breakthrough. For all the talk against pimp he totally served his purpose and then some. My singleton dread return was excellent allowing multiple 12/12 and 11/11 trolls to wreak havoc on opponents weak boards. I'm throughly convinced that besides ashen rider no other singleton targets are necessary to run. Cabal therapy and led were the Mvps all day. What did I learn? We want to be fast and fast starts are what win most games.

Sideboard:
3 natures claim (did some work saving my ass maybe twice?)
4 leyline of the void (came in against lands and that's about it, all in all a good card though.)
2 unmask (no clue how these made it into my deck box.....out!)
1 ashen rider (never saw it but good none the less, lands is really popular on the east coast.)
3 firestorm (good against creatures and I think it has value being uncounterable.)
1 dread return (keep as I'm keeping rider in the board.)
1 Iona (meh, maybe dead weight?)

Biggest lesson learned was don't over board with this deck and make them have the hate. Best sideboard card, that's easy, natures claim. All in all the sideboard in dredge didn't really determine my wins, more often than not it was the dark art of dredge and being a good cabal therapist. I think Richard Feldman's approach as less is more was pretty spot on and if you haven't given his age-old article "the dark art of dredge-fu" a good read then I highly suggest it to every dredge enthusiast. Sorry for the super vague report, although any specific questions I may do better at answering.

curious how you've been handling vs deathrite shaman decks? (mostly the delver kinds of decks, but also jund and elves)

would a 4th firestorm improve that matchup? i think i need quite a bit of work on sideboarding. i generally take out breakthroughs as a no brainer vs non combo, but i'm curious as to some other decisions on what to take out to improve those other matchups.

i think shardless tends to be one of the more difficult matchups for me. i'm not sure if this is due to lack of testing, or because it is legitimately very challenging.

drs, other potential graveyard hate, counters, discard.

-Rob

also if you want access to the dredge slack lemme know the email addy if i haven't added it already.

[vieko]

also if you want access to the dredge slack lemme know the email addy if i haven't added it already.

Hey Cakes,

Sent you a PM with my email address :) Drop me a line with slack addy when you get a chance.

[jimmythegreek]

curious how you've been handling vs deathrite shaman decks? (mostly the delver kinds of decks, but also jund and elves)

would a 4th firestorm improve that matchup? i think i need quite a bit of work on sideboarding. i generally take out breakthroughs as a no brainer vs non combo, but i'm curious as to some other decisions on what to take out to improve those other matchups.

i think shardless tends to be one of the more difficult matchups for me. i'm not sure if this is due to lack of testing, or because it is legitimately very challenging.

drs, other potential graveyard hate, counters, discard.

-Rob

also if you want access to the dredge slack lemme know the email addy if i haven't added it already.

The only time deathrite shaman threatened anything was against elves with him on the play. On my turn one I looted and on his turn two he was able to remove both my dredgers through some trickery with Drs and that elf that bounces and un taps permanents. The shaman never posed a threat otherwise as we are too fast for that guy more often than not. I don't have a lot of experience playing against shard-less or Jund. Again, I don't like to overboard with this deck as its initial strategy is often potent enough. I tend to side out slower cards versus faster decks and vice versa. Firestorm is a good card I just never see it when I board it in strangely enough but I'm definetly leaning to a sideboard with more utility and less win-more cards aka dread return targets. Cards like darkblast can easily replace a thug and have an effect on the game state without disrupting our strategy.Another card I'm thinking of adding to my board is a single chain of vapor as multiple times my only land was coliseum with claim in hand. Sometimes game two I'll opt for a faster start and board in nothing as I'm not sure what hate they are running. Counter spells really chap my balls as often we are forced to keep hands with one loot effect. I've become a fan of hands with multiple lands and multiple draw spells (even without a dredger) especially against counter heavy decks, don't be afraid to keep these hands.

[Gui]

Hi there, long time I don't post anything serious, but I want to share something...

I had an idea while reading the remake of Manaless dredge primer. Prepare yourself, wall of text incoming:

The "idea" I'm talking about is using Serum Powder in LED Dredge.

I've checked for previous tests with it on every dredge subforum here in TS, but idea was quickly dismissed. I'm a software developer, and I had to test it in my simulator, and it looks very good. Keep on reading for the result.

Generally, people consider serum to be bad in Legacy because it can't be as strong as it is in Vintage. This was why people never went ahead testing it - they believed that Powder can fetch Bazaar of Baghdad in vintage, and since all they need is BoB on opening hand, Serum is ok. But in legacy, since you don't have 1 card to go for when mulliganing, it makes no sense.

The thing is, you really are not looking for one card in your starter hand in legacy Dredge, but you are indeed looking for a starting seven that is combined, and don't intend to be drawing for your key cards after that. It is, then, a matter of math. the chance of having your combo pieces in your initial hand is calculable.

What you are looking for:
- dredger;
- discard;
- draw spell;
- land

Or, in case you have LED, you can look for:
- dredger
- LED
- Coliseum or Faithless looting

So all you need to do is to calculate the chance of hitting these initial hands; Obviously, this math is awful hard and I don't recommend it. What I can do, tho, is brute-force simulation of opening hands (as in 1000000 hands in a few seconds), and check how many times I got above hands. Actually, I can also simulate mulligans with it, and I can even go down to mulligan to 3. I can even simulate for DDD strategy 50% of the time if I want, although I kept results here without it, since it applies for any version of dredge anyways, and only accounts positively.

Before Looting inception, my LEDless dredge list had the chance of 67% to open a combo hand. It was terrible, but still, dredge lists had 4 Tireless Tribe and 4 Putrid Imp by that time, and combo hands were but a b-plan.

When Looting came, my LEDless dredge list reached 70.7% chance to open a combo hand. Yet, LED dredge surpassed LEDless because it was "much faster", which actually meant it had a higher chance to open a combo hand. But how much was that, which made LEDless list obsolete? Must have been a very high chance gain, right?

LED dredge, Quadlaser list, using Faithless Looting, actually has 76% chance to open a combo hand. 5% increase, and yet, so sensible by players that it became the standard.

Now, back to Serum Powder. I tested it. Implemented its optional mulligan. The result:

List Chance of combo hand
Gui's LEDless: 70.7%
Gui's LEDless powder: 84.0%
Gui's LED list: 74.7%
Gui's LED powder: 86.1%
Quadlaser: 76.3%
Quadlaser powder: 88.3%


Serum Powder actually gives us 12%~14% increase in chances!

What this means is:
70% means you'll miss it once for every 3.33 games you play
76% means you'll miss it once for every 4.1 games you play
88% means you'll miss it once for every 8.33 games you play

I mean... this is twice as much stability to hit the combo than it had without. Missing once out of 3 can mean a round down in score.

Well, this is the math I wanted to share, but here's my suggested list, round and clean, for a very high chance to combo, and still featuring the least winmore DR return target: (86,1% list)

4 therapy
10 rainbow
12 dredger
4 careful
4 looting
4 cephalid
4 LED
4 powder
4 narco
4 bridge
3 Ichorid
2 DR
1 Iona

I believe this to be a really strong list, able to push dredge one tier above where it is right now. I don't really have a way to put it into prove, tourneys and such, so there was no reason for me to post in TS, since it would be a lost battle against flames and nay-sayers. But if you want to give it a try, feel free.

Just don't forget that whatever you take from the list that is part of initial combo hands will hurt its chances to combo, so, avoid stuff like 3DR + 2 target. I much prefer Iona, which closes 90% of the games she comes in anyways, and hurts the deck much less.

I think this is worthy the debate, and some tests. I wanted to share this because I really think it can help improve Dredge.

[vieko]

But if you want to give it a try, feel free.

Beautiful :) I'm gonna give this a go and post results.

[mistercakes]

Hi there, long time I don't post anything serious, but I want to share something...

I had an idea while reading the remake of Manaless dredge primer. Prepare yourself, wall of text incoming:

The "idea" I'm talking about is using Serum Powder in LED Dredge.

I've checked for previous tests with it on every dredge subforum here in TS, but idea was quickly dismissed. I'm a software developer, and I had to test it in my simulator, and it looks very good. Keep on reading for the result.

Generally, people consider serum to be bad in Legacy because it can't be as strong as it is in Vintage. This was why people never went ahead testing it - they believed that Powder can fetch Bazaar of Baghdad in vintage, and since all they need is BoB on opening hand, Serum is ok. But in legacy, since you don't have 1 card to go for when mulliganing, it makes no sense.

The thing is, you really are not looking for one card in your starter hand in legacy Dredge, but you are indeed looking for a starting seven that is combined, and don't intend to be drawing for your key cards after that. It is, then, a matter of math. the chance of having your combo pieces in your initial hand is calculable.

What you are looking for:
- dredger;
- discard;
- draw spell;
- land

Or, in case you have LED, you can look for:
- dredger
- LED
- Coliseum or Faithless looting

So all you need to do is to calculate the chance of hitting these initial hands; Obviously, this math is awful hard and I don't recommend it. What I can do, tho, is brute-force simulation of opening hands (as in 1000000 hands in a few seconds), and check how many times I got above hands. Actually, I can also simulate mulligans with it, and I can even go down to mulligan to 3. I can even simulate for DDD strategy 50% of the time if I want, although I kept results here without it, since it applies for any version of dredge anyways, and only accounts positively.

Before Looting inception, my LEDless dredge list had the chance of 67% to open a combo hand. It was terrible, but still, dredge lists had 4 Tireless Tribe and 4 Putrid Imp by that time, and combo hands were but a b-plan.

When Looting came, my LEDless dredge list reached 70.7% chance to open a combo hand. Yet, LED dredge surpassed LEDless because it was "much faster", which actually meant it had a higher chance to open a combo hand. But how much was that, which made LEDless list obsolete? Must have been a very high chance gain, right?

LED dredge, Quadlaser list, using Faithless Looting, actually has 76% chance to open a combo hand. 5% increase, and yet, so sensible by players that it became the standard.

Now, back to Serum Powder. I tested it. Implemented its optional mulligan. The result:

List Chance of combo hand
Gui's LEDless: 70.7%
Gui's LEDless powder: 84.0%
Gui's LED list: 74.7%
Gui's LED powder: 86.1%
Quadlaser: 76.3%
Quadlaser powder: 88.3%


Serum Powder actually gives us 12%~14% increase in chances!

What this means is:
70% means you'll miss it once for every 3.33 games you play
76% means you'll miss it once for every 4.1 games you play
88% means you'll miss it once for every 8.33 games you play

I mean... this is twice as much stability to hit the combo than it had without. Missing once out of 3 can mean a round down in score.

Well, this is the math I wanted to share, but here's my suggested list, round and clean, for a very high chance to combo, and still featuring the least winmore DR return target: (86,1% list)

4 therapy
10 rainbow
12 dredger
4 careful
4 looting
4 cephalid
4 LED
4 powder
4 narco
4 bridge
3 Ichorid
2 DR
1 Iona

I believe this to be a really strong list, able to push dredge one tier above where it is right now. I don't really have a way to put it into prove, tourneys and such, so there was no reason for me to post in TS, since it would be a lost battle against flames and nay-sayers. But if you want to give it a try, feel free.

Just don't forget that whatever you take from the list that is part of initial combo hands will hurt its chances to combo, so, avoid stuff like 3DR + 2 target. I much prefer Iona, which closes 90% of the games she comes in anyways, and hurts the deck much less.

I think this is worthy the debate, and some tests. I wanted to share this because I really think it can help improve Dredge.

very interesting.

for all

TL:DR -> drop breakthrough, try serum powder.

Thanks for the help! I will test it too on magic online.

[slave]

... I'm talking about is using Serum Powder in LED Dredge.
Quadlaser powder: 88.3%
I believe this to be a really strong list.

I've tried Powder in Manaless quite a few times, and I would argue it's a worthy choice there.
Here in LED land I'm not sure, never given it much of a test out in the human world, but why not eh?
I have a set, so I'll sleeve them up next time I take the deck out for a legacy night (if I remember)
Another thing I'm looking forward to trying out is running Lotus Petals instead of some lands in the main. I like a broken start...

Looking at your list, I have a few questions;
A lack of black creatures, ie Putrid Imp/Street Wraith. Not running any of them? Why?
Also, 10 rainbow lands, 4 Cephalid. Was there a reason for this number, or just preference?

Sideboard:
3 natures claim (did some work saving my ass maybe twice?)
4 leyline of the void (came in against lands and that's about it, all in all a good card though.)
2 unmask (no clue how these made it into my deck box.....out!)
1 ashen rider (never saw it but good none the less, lands is really popular on the east coast.)
3 firestorm (good against creatures and I think it has value being uncounterable.)
1 dread return (keep as I'm keeping rider in the board.)
1 Iona (meh, maybe dead weight?)

Biggest lesson learned was don't over board with this deck and make them have the hate. Best sideboard card, that's easy, natures claim. All in all the sideboard in dredge didn't really determine my wins, more often than not it was the dark art of dredge and being a good cabal therapist.

Couldn't agree more about "Don't over board", but I'm always wary of hate. I hate top-decking for 5 minutes until they kill me.

My fave's are usually Claim & Firestorm.
I've been running a couple Wear/Tear to go with 4 Claims lately, and I've been liking it a lot.

[mistercakes]

i've tried a few games already with serum and it's very explosive. because the deck is looking to do really unfair things on t1, i'd recommend cutting 4 rainbow lands for 4 lotus petal. this will allow crazier turns when you have a looting effect + cephalid coliseum.

unless if there are advantages to running 10 rainbow lands over 6 + 4 petal

[Gui]

I've tried Powder in Manaless quite a few times, and I would argue it's a worthy choice there.
Here in LED land I'm not sure, never given it much of a test out in the human world, but why not eh?
I have a set, so I'll sleeve them up next time I take the deck out for a legacy night (if I remember)
Another thing I'm looking forward to trying out is running Lotus Petals instead of some lands in the main. I like a broken start...

Looking at your list, I have a few questions;
A lack of black creatures, ie Putrid Imp/Street Wraith. Not running any of them? Why?
Also, 10 rainbow lands, 4 Cephalid. Was there a reason for this number, or just preference?

The reason for not having the black creatures are that I was tweaking with quadlaser list and trying for the highest chance of opening a hand with the combo. That's the same reason why I have 10 rainbow lands, since they also enter the equation (I believe the 11th rainbow tied in consistency with other possible changes, so this is why 10). There are more ways to discard a dredger than to generate mana, and there are also more ways to draw. One can obviously use them, but at the cost of some consistency, as the rainbows perform better. I also like having more lands for extra sideboard consistency, so all the best, in my view.

The list can be tweaked, specially if you consider metagame, where having a Putrid can mean more than having the combo available. Just try your best to not cut dredgers, careful/looting, cephalid and rainbows. If you need to, start with rainbows (granted you are losing consistency).

[Ronald Deuce]

Hadn't played this deck in a while, but I was messing around after a tournament on Sunday and dredged out a T1 Iona against someone playing Infect. Feels good, man.

I wouldn't recommend running more than 14 lands. Our consistency isn't stellar, but I've found it's reasonable to mulligan pretty hard and even to play a three-card hand with one land against non-blue opponents.