[Deck] Dredge

[joemauer]

Saying 12 lands in Quadlazer worked fine is like saying Impulse worked fine in Keeper, the reason that deck got away with its mana base was because we used to be able to win games without casting spells in a format pre-Deathrite Shaman and even then we had to SB 3 lands in order to SB out Lion's Eye Diamond vs Tormod's Crypt.

I don't think Gitaxian Probe being a free spell actually offsets the number of lands in your deck because casting blue spells was never the problem, if you want to consistently cast Firestorm and Cabal Therapy then you need gold lands. And don't forget you need 2 lands to activate Cephalid Coliseum, counter Daze, offset Wasteland and cast Narcomoeba and Golgari Thug.

It's ugly, but I think I'd play 4 City of Brass, 4 Gemstone Mine, 2 Tarnished Citadel and 3 Cephalid Coliseum if I cut Breakthrough because U mana is less important.

Also there's a fair argument we should just SB Firestorm and Street Wraith for Deathrite Shaman.dec, Dread Return and Nether Shadow are just unnecessary and Duress handles Surgical Extraction and Rest in Peace just fine. Putrid Imp is still viable as long as you win the coin flip, which makes me want to try and salvage it with Lotus Petal more than cutting it but IDK.

Why do all of you guys still SB Nature's Claim? If Rest and Peace resolves you lose anyway.

12 lands in Quadlazer worked fine. It was able to play around daze and activate Cephalid land fine. My deck has one less non blue card that it wants to hard cast game 1 rather than traditional Quadlazer, 3 firestorm vs 4 Pimp. The free spells(Wraiths, Probes) can cycle for lands if need be or just draw cards and ignore not having a land.

The two Probes may be better as two Breakthroughs, definitely a flex spot there.

Daze is less of a worry for me with Firestorm+Street Wraith. It makes the deck function like manaless without the weaknesses of manaless dredge. Firestorm has been amazing in my testing.

Nature's Claim is still required, I feel. Enlighten Tutor commonly grabs Rest in Peace making discard irrevelant. And lots of decks play some combination of Cages/RiPs. We don't lose to a resolved RiP, this isn't manaless dredge.

Finally, I play a Dread Return package in my sb to speed the deck up versus other fast combo not to fight surgical extraction. Surgical Extraction is such a rarity and very easy to play through without help from the sideboard. Snapcaster+Surgical isn't a thing anymore(ironically because of Deathrite Shaman) and isn't something of concern right now.

[ottofromorbit]

Brainstorm

Pros:
I love 1cc
I love when my opponent looks like o.O when I cast it
I love digging for goodies and anti-hate, 11 cards deep on turn 1
I love hiding key cards in response to hand disruption
I love "top decking" (narcos dredgers and DR targets out of my hand)
I love dredging 3 times (coliseum)
I love announcing "I maintain priority *as I then go all in and crack LED"
I love beating somebody using their favorite card/strategy
I love stalling until I can go off when the coast is clear
I love 4 x Putrid Imps in my main deck.

And I think Lotus petal has now made the maindeck cut aswell.

Cons:
No discarding directly to grave
My dredge friends will tease me
A teary goodbye to careful study

[Parcher]

Brainstorm
I love digging for goodies and anti-hate, 11 cards deep on turn 1

This is one of the major problems with Brainstorm. You're familiar with the term, "Brainstorm-Lock"? Dredge is a deck that can't deal with that. So if you are unable to find your anti-hate in the first three, you essentially have double-timewalked yourself. And considering that you either couldn't discard due to the nature of Brainstorm, and/or don't have the anti-hate to freely use your graveyard, you probably don't have the option to Dredge the chaff away. Against decks with hard hate, like RIP, this is effectively a death sentence.

Study/Looting aren't much better in that case, since you permanently lose the cards you pitch to them, and they only dig twice. But your remaining draws stay live. And if your opponent doesn't have the hate, you are left in a much better position, since you have at least started your graveyard. You can't even use it well against Deathrite, since you'll either have to go to your discard, which will allow him to get active(assuming you won game one), or you give the opponent the oppoertunity to stop you by countering either of your spells. That is to say, if they counter the discard, the Brainstorm dredges nothing. If they counter the Brainstorm, Deathrite becomes live again. Passing on turn one, and waiting to Brainstorm is is equally as bad, since you usually won't have the extra mana to cast multiple spells in one turn. And it opens you up a little more to Wasteland.

[ottofromorbit]

Maybe looking a little like this
Could go careful study in main instead of breakthrough for controlled" dredging.
Side board is just basic "ass coverage" vs tokens weenies monsters and artifact/enchants
I'm hoping to rip hate and permission apart early w therapy.

4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass

3 Ichorid
3 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba

3 Lotus Petal
3 Breakthrough
4 Brainstorm
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
26 other spells

Sideboard
4 Nature's Claim
4 Firestorm
2 Flayer of the Hatebound
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Dread Return

[ottofromorbit]

This is one of the major problems with Brainstorm. You're familiar with the term, "Brainstorm-Lock"? Dredge is a deck that can't deal with that. So if you are unable to find your anti-hate in the first three, you essentially have double-timewalked yourself. And considering that you either couldn't discard due to the nature of Brainstorm, and/or don't have the anti-hate to freely use your graveyard, you probably don't have the option to Dredge the chaff away. Against decks with hard hate, like RIP, this is effectively a death sentence.

Study/Looting aren't much better in that case, since you permanently lose the cards you pitch to them, and they only dig twice. But your remaining draws stay live. And if your opponent doesn't have the hate, you are left in a much better position, since you have at least started your graveyard. You can't even use it well against Deathrite, since you'll either have to go to your discard, which will allow him to get active(assuming you won game one), or you give the opponent the oppoertunity to stop you by countering either of your spells. That is to say, if they counter the discard, the Brainstorm dredges nothing. If they counter the Brainstorm, Deathrite becomes live again. Passing on turn one, and waiting to Brainstorm is is equally as bad, since you usually won't have the extra mana to cast multiple spells in one turn. And it opens you up a little more to Wasteland.

We should be clocking like manaless dredge, belcher and TES types. We don't have time to waste in the current meta. Losing consistency with 3-4 more mana with lotus petal seemed like the boost we'd need.
What else can we do to this deck to keep it competetive and not so conditional.
Speed.
Must be faster
Must be faster
It's risk vs reward and it's true brainstorm is probly a better turn 2-3 card right before the big finish.
Still playing it but the meta same
We're facing a lot of hate
That's dredge

[TableTopMagic]

We got a new friend. :)

[Final Fortune]

RIP Tarnished Citadel, are 5+ City of Brass better than Gemstone Mines?

[Vlad Teppes]

I was about to post that sweet new dredge and TES stapple!
Let's just hope it doesn't hurt our pockets too much!

R.I.P tarnished citadel It was good while it lasted!

[indefinite.soul]

RIP Tarnished Citadel, are 5+ City of Brass better than Gemstone Mines?

Tarnished Citadel are gone. OK.

But I don't think Gemstone Mines are also gone. The ones who use 12 lands should keep them.

Our late discussions are on how to boost the deck's explosiveness. Why take damage when you intend to finish the game before GM goes to grave? Times are gone since we had tireless tribe in our sideboard / we wanted to be able to AG and BT the same turn.

IMO Mines are better than City theses days. So they are also better than Mana Confluence, since they are the same card (well, actually the late one is better, no damage from R. Port).

[Alessar]

We got a new friend. :)

Ok, so now "8x "City of Brass" ".

Very well! RIP T. Citadel we won't miss you

[JPoJohnson]

So I know up until 2013 there were quite a few lists that would run Bloodghast, but recently it has not been nearly as popular as it use to be. I was wondering if anyone would be willing to clarify why this would be?

I see Ichorid being just as fragile or playable as it, but being a bit easier to get into play on a regular basis as well as having an easy sac outlet. Is that the only reason?

[joemauer]

So I know up until 2013 there were quite a few lists that would run Bloodghast, but recently it has not been nearly as popular as it use to be. I was wondering if anyone would be willing to clarify why this would be?

I see Ichorid being just as fragile or playable as it, but being a bit easier to get into play on a regular basis as well as having an easy sac outlet. Is that the only reason?

LEDless used to be more common than LED dredge. When LED dredge became the norm then the land count went down making Bloodghast less played. Also, it is tough to sandbag lands in hand when using LED.

[easysantiago]

we got a new friend. :)

yes!

[jimmythegreek]

12 lands in Quadlazer worked fine. It was able to play around daze and activate Cephalid land fine. My deck has one less non blue card that it wants to hard cast game 1 rather than traditional Quadlazer, 3 firestorm vs 4 Pimp. The free spells(Wraiths, Probes) can cycle for lands if need be or just draw cards and ignore not having a land.

The two Probes may be better as two Breakthroughs, definitely a flex spot there.

Daze is less of a worry for me with Firestorm+Street Wraith. It makes the deck function like manaless without the weaknesses of manaless dredge. Firestorm has been amazing in my testing.

Nature's Claim is still required, I feel. Enlighten Tutor commonly grabs Rest in Peace making discard irrevelant. And lots of decks play some combination of Cages/RiPs. We don't lose to a resolved RiP, this isn't manaless dredge.

Finally, I play a Dread Return package in my sb to speed the deck up versus other fast combo not to fight surgical extraction. Surgical Extraction is such a rarity and very easy to play through without help from the sideboard. Snapcaster+Surgical isn't a thing anymore(ironically because of Deathrite Shaman) and isn't something of concern right now.

I would argue that the manaless blue version of dredge is much more resilient to rip than led dredge.....care to elaborate?

[joemauer]

I would argue that the manaless blue version of dredge is much more resilient to rip than led dredge.....care to elaborate?

In a situation where RiP is resolved(against either version of dredge) then of course manaless would get hurt the most.

Manaless is dependent on its opening hand. It really shouldn't mulligan to anti-hate. If you don't have Force of Will or Shoal in your opener then fighting RiP becomes very tough. LED dredge can mulligan or dig for answers with Studies and Faithless Looting.

There are a lot of corner cases where counter magic in hand won't save a manaless dredge player. Like Thalia into Rest in Peace or Rest in Peace with Force and/or Daze backup. Manaless player would need x2 counterspell + x2 blue cards in their opening 7+1. Someone better with stats can tell us the exact odds of having those four cards in your opener.

Also, LED dredge can still cast their creatures when a RiP resolves. Some players will keep worthless hands with Rest in Peaces in it. Going aggro with Narcomoebas and Stinkweed Imps is actually a viable path to victory.

[jimmythegreek]

In a situation where RiP is resolved(against either version of dredge) then of course manaless would get hurt the most.

Manaless is dependent on its opening hand. It really shouldn't mulligan to anti-hate. If you don't have Force of Will or Shoal in your opener then fighting RiP becomes very tough. LED dredge can mulligan or dig for answers with Studies and Faithless Looting.

There are a lot of corner cases where counter magic in hand won't save a manaless dredge player. Like Thalia into Rest in Peace or Rest in Peace with Force and/or Daze backup. Manaless player would need x2 counterspell + x2 blue cards in their opening 7+1. Someone better with stats can tell us the exact odds of having those four cards in your opener.

Also, LED dredge can still cast their creatures when a RiP resolves. Some players will keep worthless hands with Rest in Peaces in it. Going aggro with Narcomoebas and Stinkweed Imps is actually a viable path to victory.

Reading is fundamental...... missed the "resolved" part. I agree with most everthing you said here. Even with led dredge a resolved rip can easily spell disaster. As I can see it without another draw spell in hand you may be too low on gas to recover. Im on manaless right now and the main deck forces have been great. The ability to be proactive to rip keeps me ahead instead of reactive once the ability resolves...maybe this could work in led dredge, not sure though. My apologies if this topic has been discussed to death.

[easysantiago]

Reading is fundamental...... missed the "resolved" part. I agree with most everthing you said here. Even with led dredge a resolved rip can easily spell disaster. As I can see it without another draw spell in hand you may be too low on gas to recover. Im on manaless right now and the main deck forces have been great. The ability to be proactive to rip keeps me ahead instead of reactive once the ability resolves...maybe this could work in led dredge, not sure though. My apologies if this topic has been discussed to death.

Could you link me to your deck list? As a manaless player myself, I am always interested in what others are running.

[jimmythegreek]

Could you link me to your deck list? As a manaless player myself, I am always interested in what others are running.

There's a manaless dredge forum with all the proactive decklists featuring force of will. I will post my list there on the manaless forum, thats probably the right place rather than here.

[DarkJester]

Most players play their Rip as soon as possible because they are afraid of therapies, so hardcasting stuff and waiting for the perfect moment to go off is a valid option, more so against Miracles because of the non-existing clock.

[easysantiago]

There's a manaless dredge forum with all the proactive decklists featuring force of will. I will post my list there on the manaless forum, thats probably the right place rather than here.

Sounds good!