In addition to NecroYawgmoth, Griselbrand being a 7/7 Flyer, Lifelink is also important because he can disregards his ability and just put the game out of reach vs Burn and its variants on fast-aggro.
You'll just get into situations where recurring FKZ wont immediately kill your opponent, and in those situations anything is better than FKZ.
Altho' honestly if you want to play with 2 Dread Return, 1 Griselbrand and 1 FKZ just do it game 1 and SB it out game 2, as long as you have the SB space to converge into your post-board plan then what you choose to play for game 1 isn't a big deal, altho' I'd never play FKZ game 2 vs hate for certain.
The reason that Griselbrand is hands down the best DR target is because he's a stand alone threat at 7/7 Flying, Lifelink and he draws/dredges the deck out into a position where you're opponent is Mind Twisted and can only top deck Swords to Plowshares Griselbrand and die to Zombie Tokens and Ichorids, Terminus and get attacked by Ichorids who leave behind a board full of Zombies or Tormod's Crypt and die anyway to Griselbrand and Zombie Tokens. Griselbrand ensures your opponent is facing "power overwhelming," because there's just no way to McGiver your way out of that ass beating.
Counter heavy decks will still have relevant cards and can miracle Terminus or sneak in Griselbrand to search for Emrakul. There are games where swinging one turn earlier is necessary.Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth
But I agree that the odds of being overcame in this situation is too low for justify running FKZ. The same isn't true for the non LED versions. That Sun Titan plus FKZ old tactic states a really strong board position when rushed. Sometimes we have three creatures but find only one bridge. What do you usually do? Wait one more turn? (not a rhetorical question, I'm trying to learn about this)
There's no reason LED can afford not to play with Dread Returns and LEDless can't afford not to play with Dread Returns and Dread Return targets, the only difference between the two decks is that LED has a faster fundamental turn than LEDless does, what happens after they both reach that fundamental turn is the exact same thing.
The problem with Dread Return or Dread Return into FKZ is that if you're over commiting to either your board position instead of your grave position, you have a Golgari Grave Troll and more Zombie Tokens on the board instead of an Ichorid in your graveyard to hedge against Terminus, or you have to be able to win immediately in order to justify recurring FKZ. If all FKZ does is prevent the opponent from top decking Terminus, Iona, Shield of Emeria does the same thing by naming White and is a 7/7 Flyer for the times you can't win immediately for FKZ. Likewise Griselbrand lets you either dredge your deck into your graveyard, where you have more than enough Ichorids and Bridges to come back regardless of a Terminus or he lets you draw 7 cards wheren you now have a board position, a graveyard position and a new hand. If you know a way for a control deck to win thru' that then you are a god, because it's not mortally possible.
That's why I'm not a fan of either the singleton Dread Return in decks or Flame Kin Zealot, if Flame Kin Zealot doesn't win immediately it's worthless, while Griselbrand or Iona, Shield of Emeria don't have to have to the exact board position in order to be worthwhile.
Edit: Also FKZ is worthless vs. Mogg Fanatic, check the DTB ...
Technically, 5 sacrifice outlets makes it more easily attainable than 4, just saying...
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
Yeah, I know what you mean, but that doesn't necessarily encourage the use of Dread Returns in place of an Ichorid over Darkblast in place of a Golgari Thug for the extra Narcomoeba killer. I don't think the singleton Dread Return is necessarily bad, I just don't like cutting the 4th Ichorid for it unless I have some other extenuating circumstances in mind like diversifying vs Surgical Extraction or saving SB space.
IDK, Dread Returns is growing on me right now because every deck pretty much seems to be playing Surgical Extraction over Tormod's Crypt, and even the decks playing Tormod's Crypt like Goblins or Affinity can't really win the match with it. Also nobody seems to be playing more than 4 SB cards for Dredge or other graveyard decks, I've never seen anybody play 3 Surgical Extraction, 3 Tormod's Crypt in their SBs IRL for example and I'm not convinced you can reliably beat Dredge as RUG with only 4 Surgical Extractions, U/w with 4 Snapcaster Mages may be another matter tho'.
My meta has a lot of graveyard hate for what ever reason. I have a couple RUG players that board 3 or 4 Surgical Extraction & 2 or 3 Tormod's Crypt, then a couple guys running Snapcaster Mage siding 4 Surgical Extraction (which is like running 8 ), top all that off with the other decks running Leyline of the Void. It gets pretty crazy if you wanna play a graveyard based deck around here.
I feel your pain, I have to deal with U/w with 4 Surgical Extractions and Snapcaster Mages and Goblins, Affinity and Elves with Leyline of the Void and RUG with a mix of graveyard hate at my local meta as well, my best suggestion is to just play 7 answers to Leyline of the Void in your SB and diversify your Dredgers and kill conditions as much as possible. I think you can still compete as long as you don't run into Reanimator with Surgical Extraction, which feels like having your balls hammered to the wall.My meta has a lot of graveyard hate for what ever reason. I have a couple RUG players that board 3 or 4 Surgical Extraction & 2 or 3 Tormod's Crypt, then a couple guys running Snapcaster Mage siding 4 Surgical Extraction (which is like running 8 ), top all that off with the other decks running Leyline of the Void. It gets pretty crazy if you wanna play a graveyard based deck around here.
Rofl I can attest to that. For whatever reason my Reanimator opponent must have been really worried about the mirror that day because in our match he ended up siding in Surgical extractions as well as Fearie Macabres to fuck me.
Yeah, I forgot to mention the Maverick and Zoo decks that MB at least 2 Scavenging Ooze and then SB 1 to 2 more.
Well thats different. Its to be expected from those decks.
Be thankful for the Maverick match up, if all they're playing is a set of Scavenging Ooze and that Graveyard sweeping land for Knight of the Reliquary they can't win the match up because Lion's Eye Diamond out races them. If they play Faerie Macabre, then you've got problems.Yeah, I forgot to mention the Maverick and Zoo decks that MB at least 2 Scavenging Ooze and then SB 1 to 2 more.
SB Firestorms and laugh off the match up IMO.
Yesterday I beat Burn in two games, Esper Stoneblade in two games, and lost to RUG in three. I had high hopes after he scooped Game 1 on Turn 0 to Gemstone, LED, LED, Breakthrough, Troll, Troll, PImp, after I called Gemstone, LED, Breakthough, Troll, Troll, Therapy, Bridge during shuffling. Game 2 we both mulled to six and Extracting my Trolls stalled me out. Game 3 we both mulled to five and I had to keep land, land, Thug, Stinkweed, Stinkweed. I didn't draw any more lands and he Extracted Ichorid and Thug as my only dredger in the yard while the trigger was putting Narcomoeba back. It was a pretty messed up game of Magic. I'm feeling pretty good about Quadlaser, though I might want to sneak in one more land.
"If we wanted a deterministic game, we’d play chess. Instead, we play a game that involves chance, both out of the love of overcoming that chance to win and because, from time to time, it’s fun to experience spectacle.
Or, to put it another way, Jurassic Park is not an especially good movie. But dude....dinosaurs!"- Alexander Shearer
JBulko explains his Dredge list here.
I'm curious where he's going to finish. 2-1 after round 3 afaik.
Hopefully he doesn't top eight or else we might get flooded with a bunch of posts like this:
9 Dredgers not counting Darkblast and Salvage... Oo
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells
:16:- (See, now Erratic Explosion's a deck)
Legendary Creature - Horror
Haste, Hexproof, Double Strike, Trample
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells is indestructible.
Permanents you control can't be sacrificed or copied.
Whenever Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells attacks, defending player gets liver cancer (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)
13/13
Seriously, stop hating Jason already. I know his style of writing and maybe even his cardchoices anger some people but you guys really exaggerate. It's almost like you are jealous... I don't know what the deal is with all this hate...
This man is a truthspeaker! You deserve a beer - if you see me in Ghent, you may present yourself to me as The Speaker of Truths and I will buy you a beer of choice
I don't hate him. I also don't hate someone else in this forum / thread. But c'mon Hokus, you have to agree that you shouldn't ever play Dredge with only 9 real Dredgers...
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells
:16:
Legendary Creature - Horror
Haste, Hexproof, Double Strike, Trample
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells is indestructible.
Permanents you control can't be sacrificed or copied.
Whenever Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells attacks, defending player gets liver cancer (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)
13/13
I think Bulko finished 5-3, so no tops this time. Not a terrible result either.
Thanks for the faux quote Mauer...
Had a rough couple of matches. Including the Burn kid who had to read all my cards, The eventual T4 Omni-show player(svien), though it was closer than I expected it to be, and a 3rd loss to Metalworker, who had chalice for one in both games he played first. I guess that's the kind of stuff you run into in the X-2 bracket. Shrug.
Here's the round-by-round:
R1- Beat delver in 3
R2- lose to the burn kid in 3
R3- 2-0 Maverick, wining G2 with the Sb plan
R4- Lose in 3 to eventual T4 Omni-show(Jap version)
R5- 2-0 Esper blade, Win G2 with board plan
R6- Lose in 3 to Metalworker
R7- beat Esper blade in 3
R8- Beat U/w control(not miracles) in 3
End up 5-3, in 35 place, well inside the money.
I'm a little disappointed, but I can't be too upset finishing 4th in the standard, and with Joe WINING the event!!!
I'm still happy with the deck, and with the board.
I know we all have strong opinions about card choices etc., and my language isn't exactly friendly, but I actually agree with Hokus on this one, some of you guys just take it too personally.
Took the following to 9th on breakers at a 55-man tournament today.
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Breakthrough
4 Faithless Looting
2 Careful Study
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
1 Sun Titan
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
SB
1 Ichorid
2 Memory's Journey
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Ancient Grudge
4 Nature's Claim
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Firestorm
R1 Dredge 0-2
R2 Esper Stoneblade 2-0
R3 UB Delver homebrew 2-0
R4 Merfolk 2-1
R5 Esper Stoneblade 2-0
R6 ID Maverick, miss top 8 by .9% on breakers. If I were going to play the tourney again I might move the combo DR targets to the side for Ichorid and something and turn the Norn into a Firestorm. Memory's journey was great versus stoneblade.
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