Is there an advantage to running LEDless anymore now that Faithless looting has been printed? Seems like the only reason to run tribe now is the fact that a set of tribes run 40c where LEDs will run ~240$.
I'm playing LEDless, most of times with looting instead of tribes, and with FKZ combo. I'd play LED too if it wasn't too expensive.
Idk if there's any advantage of not play LED, I think it could be perceived if people play more this version on tourneys to compare the results.
@4eak: If I was to play with Dread Return then I would either use it as a miser one of(like the Spanish lists) or go all out with a package. Playing in between makes you not reap the benifits of either. Mucking up your dredges and draws while not really making you more explosive.
Perhaps something like this: -Ichorid,-Thug,-Tarnished Citadel;+Dread Return,+Grizselbrand,+Flayer/Flame-Kin.
Either way you should definitely have the second Citadel in the sideboard as 13 lands is almost always enough for game one.
Two quick reports with LEDless Dredge + some thoughts on Dryad Militant:
The list:
Quadlazer -4 LED +2 Tarnish Citadell +1 Undiscoverd Paradise +1 Dread Return
Sideboard:
4 Natures Claim
3 Ashen Ghoul
3 Firestorm
1 Darkblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Terrastodon
1 Iona
1 Dread Return
Tourney 1 ( 14 player):
R1: UW Tempo Blade
I played the deck a week before to a 4-0 finish, so I was quite aware what I had to face.
G1.: I do what I do best: Turn 1 Putrid Imp, Turn 2 Cephalid Colliseum Turn 3 conceed.
Board: Since I knew that he'd be boarding 2 Surgical, 2 Crypts and 2 Jotun Grunt I simply went for +1 Darkblast ( to kill unflipped Delver) + 3 Ashen Ghoul ( obvious) -1 Ichorid -1 Thug -2 Breakthrough
G2.: I mulligan down to five and never get a card in my yard befor I die to dual Delver beats.
G3.: I go all-in on turn 2 with Breakthrough... well he got the Extraction for my Narcomoeba + Crypt to wreck me completly.
R2: Goblins
G1: He starts with Lacky, followed by a Krenko, Mob Boss and a Skirk Prospector ( so yeah he hit both of his 1-off creatures that he needs to kill me...)
Board: + 3 Firestorm +1 Darkblast +1 Dread Return +1 Iona -3 Breakthrough -1 Thug -2 Looting
G2: He mulligans down to 5, keeps a hand without hate and dies on turn 4.
G3: A early Firestorm clears his board and Iona comes down a turn later to seal the deal.
After the games he complained a lot about my luck... guess you can call it karma.
R3: Maverick
G1: Turn 2 Breakthrough, gg.
Sideboard: +4 Natures Claim ( afraid of Whell of Sun/Moon) +3 Firestorm + 1 Darkblast -4 Breakthrough -1 Thug - 2 Looting -1 DR
G2: He got 3 Surgicals in his oppening hand and I naturally hit none of them with my Therapy ( naming Enlighted Tutor, well duh....)
Board: -4 Claim -1 Ichorid + 3 Ashen Ghoul +2 Looting
G3: I manage to Firestorm his Noble + Ooze and he never recovers.
R4: ANT
G1: He got the turn 2 Ad Nauseam but failed to find Lotus Petal or LED, wich gave me the chance to strip his hand with Therapies.
Sideboard: +1 DR +1 Iona +1 Terrastodon +1 Grudge -1 Thug -1 Ichorid -1 breakthrough -1 Looting
G2: He kept a rather slow hand and dies to multiple Therapies into an Iona on turn 2.
Tourney 1,5 ( 30 Player)
I'd love to tell an epic Dredge Story, but unfortunatly a friend of mine gave me his SneakShow Deck and since I'm a sucker for decks that I haven't played yet I immediatly took it.
Went 3-1-1, only to lose against Maverick in the top 8.
Tourney 2 ( 12 Player)
R1: Reanimator ( great and I don't have Leylines in my board...)
G1: He goes for a turn 2 Jin-Gitaxis which goes the distance, meaning that he killed himself with it.
Who cares if you got Blazing Archon when you draw 8 cards per turn.
Board: +1 DR +1 Iona +1 Terrastodon +4 Natures Claim - 1 Ichorid -1 Thug -2 Breakthrough -1 PImp -2 Looting
G2: He mulls down to five and finds neither hate nor action, so he dies rather quickly against a large horde of zombies.
R2: Maverick ( same guy who kicked me out of the top 8)
G1: Turn 1 Study, followed by Study + Looting on turn 2.
Board: +3 Ashen Ghoul + 3 Firestorm +1 Darkblast -4 Breakthrough -1 Ichorid -1 Thug -1 DR
G2: He does nothing until turn 3, while I hit nothing important with my early dredgers. Long story short, he kept the following hand: 1 KotR, 1 Bok, 3 Surgicals, 2 lands....
G3: I go for a turn 2 Colliseum and get rewarded, as he only got Ooze and Knight this time, which do nothing once they hit his yard.
R3: Monoblack Vampires ( I got paired down)
G1: He has no clue whats going and dies on turn 3.
Sideboard: +3 Firestorm +1 DR +1 Iona - 1 Ichorid -1 Thug -2 Breakthrough -1 Looting
G2: He still has no clue whats going on and dies to a turn 2 Iona.
R4: Terminator
G1: I mull to 6 and keep a horrible hand that loses to Force of Will, which he got. A couple of turns later I'm facing CB + Top, Jace and 2 Angels, who take me down rather quickly.
Sideboard: -1 DR -1 Ichorid -1 Thug -1 Breakthrough +3 Ashen Ghoul +1 Ancient Grudge
G2: I steamroll him with early Therapies and a turn 3 Breakthrough
G3: A blind Therapy leave him with with 2 Terminus and a Brainstorm, so I only had to play around Terminus ( i.e. only recuring 1 Ashen Ghoul and not 3) and won the game shortly afterwards.
So let talk a bit about Dryad Militant.
First of all the facts:
- yes, this card will see play as a 1-off in Maverick builds
- no, they wont run a full playset
- yes, other decks might run 4 off them ( lets say white weenie), but those decks shouldn't bother us at all ( i.e. they wont be a factor in competitive tourneys).
So with this in mind we can conclude that they won't hit the table befor turn 2
( hence Zenith for 1), so we got 1-2 turns to go apeshit on them.
Since the only way we can really explode on turn 1 is LED Dredge we can conclude that this might be the last nail to the coffin of traditional LEDless Dredge.
LEDless Dredge might start to play maindeck Firestorms again.
Another important fact, that we have to bear in mid: Dryad Militant doesn't actually do much on its own. We won't get Theraphies, Dread Returns or Lootings in our yard, but we still get Ichorids, Moebas and Bridge to steamroll their face.
So we can conclude that they'll only get Drayd if they have another piece of hate, or they'd spare that Zenith for an Ooze / Knight/. We have to keep that in mind, easpecially in game 2.
Overall I'd say that Dryad Militant won't affect us very hard, it will only proof that LED Dredge is superior to LEDless Dredge and it might force some changes in the traditional LEDless Dredge build.
Our music means nothing, except for what it means to
you.
That's rubbish, there's nothing to say that you have to play a Dread Return package if you play more than 1 Dread Return, playing 2 Dread Returns means you can consistently Dread Return as opposed to mise Dread Return and you have a reliable secondary kill condition for Surgical Extraction.
I'm not saying playing 1 Dread Return is bad, but anybody who says playing 2 Dread Return with no Dread Return targets is baseless.
This I play 2 DR my only target is Zealot
Playing Dread Return with no package is fine, even running 2 (to hit it more consistently), ever had to Dread Return a Stinkweed Imp to win, I have they could not survive the 9 Zombies on board + 3 Ichorids next turn and their Griselbrand could not swing without dieing (this was reanimator he was at 6 life I believe because he could not draw 7 in response to DR)
Currently Playing:
Dredge, The Rock, Lands, Spiral Tide, Affinity
@Dread Return:
Quadlazer plays none. It has been proven that we don't need the card to win at all. Dread Return in hand is a mulligan or dead card(I guess it can give Pimp flying for a turn).
The Spanish lists play one Dread Return as a just in case button. There will be games where you will need a really big troll to get there with. This is rare that you will need the Troll and/or zombies to win with. As a one of in your deck you will have Dread Return show up in those long games without messing up your draws/mulligans much. It can also give easier access to Dread Return targets from the sideboard namely Elesh Norn and Iona who can win games on their own.
You can go with a comboish kill route with three Dread Returns+Grisslebrand+Some guy who can kill your opponent. Three Dread Returns and two good creatures is the most optimal number if going for a comboish kill. It lets you hit a Dread Return+Awesome creature often enough to make it worth it that you don't have as strong of typical aggro kill angle. When you go with less Dread Returns/Creatures than 3/2; you sacrifice the consistency of the deck for little pay off. The odds that you will get a Flame Kin kill with only two Dread Returns and one Flame-Kin is very low, almost as if it kills your opponents accidentally.
So the way I see it is you can go for the utmost consistency with 0-1 Dread Returns or you can go for the ultimate combo kill with three Dread Returns. Anything in between gets you all the disadvantages and little to no advantages.
But hey it is dredge and you guys can build your decks however you. It will still basically be the same deck with subtle differences in the frequency and route in which you kill you opponents.
Anybody play Faithless Looting instead of Tireless Tribe MD w/o LED?
This is still wrong,
I don't play any Dread Returns MD and I still play 2 Dread Returns in all of my post-board games, Dread Returns have no effect on your mulligan rate unless you're cutting Putrid Imp, Dredgers, Lands or Draw for them.
3xDread Return is neither necessary or optimal for a Dread Return package, the only two viable, combo-kill Dread Return packages are 2xDread Return, 1xGriselbrand and 1xFlame Kin Zealot or 3xDread Return, 1xGriselbrand and 1xFlayer of the Hatebound and the 3rd Dread Return is only for the Golgari Grave Troll. Anytime you Dread Return your Griselbrand, you can dredge/draw 7 cards and find the remaining Dread Return and Dread Return target in all likelyhood. Yes, 3 Dread Returns is better than 2 in order to Dread Return Griselbrand, but 3 Dread Return requires you to only play 2 Ichorid and not just cut 4 Putrid Imps, leading to less creatures you can recur in order to sacrifice to Dread Return on your 2nd turn so it's not as clear cut as you say it is.
I'm not saying any of these options are wrong, but they're not right for the reasons you think they are.
I mean if you really need an "optimal" list,
MD
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast
3 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Putrid Imp
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Breakthrough
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
SB
4 Firestorm (for Dryad Militant)
4 Nature's Claim
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
2 Dread Return
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite (for the Dredge mirror)
2 Tarnished Citadel
Is about as optimal as it gets, if you play the 2 Tarnished Citadels and 2 Dread Return MD instead of the 4 Lion's Eye Diamonds then you can SB 4 Leyline of the Void and have an edge in the mirror over the course of a match.
Hi everyone! Talking about sideboard is it better to run 4 Leyline of the Void or 4 Faerie Macabre? I mean, Faerie seems good against reanimator, she can remove the first fatty and also feed Ichorid, but I think it's obviously worse in mirror. Her best skill is to be unaffected by any kind of antihate (counters, removals). Leyline seems a lot more consistent but it could be broken by nature's claim in mirror, bounced by chain of vapor vs reanimator. I don't know, which one do you think is the best?
I'm attending a Legacy Qualifier tomorrow and this is my list, with just a little doubt on the sideboard:
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum (brand new From the Vault ones :D)
4 City of Brass (7E Foils that's worth my wage :()
1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
SB1: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB1: 4 Nature's Claim
SB1: 2 Tarnished Citadel
SB1: 2 Firestorm
SB1: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB1: 1 Dread Return
SB1: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB2: 4 Nature's Claim
SB2: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB2: 3 Firestorm
SB2: 2 Tarnished Citadel
SB2: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB2: 1 Dread Return
SB2: 1 Ancient Grudge
Which version is better if I'm expecting a lot of Merfolk, Reanimator, T.E.S/ANT and GW Maverick?
I'm leaning towards the second one.
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
BTW, what do people think about Tarnished Citadel vs Undiscovered Paridise?
I always thought that Undiscovered Paridise was much nicer.
It helps you recover from a countered spell much faster to get back up to 7 cards to discard. The downside being that it is difficult to hardcast drawn thugs/narcomeobas.
Report. LQ for the Brazil's Legacy National. 38 players showed up.
The list:
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthough
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Firestorm
SB: 2 Tarnished Citadel
SB: 1 Dread Return
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
Prizes for the top 8 in the swiss + cut for the top 8 (finalists would go to the National).
R1: Elfball (0-2)
G1: I keep CC, Putrid, City of Brass, Breakthough, 2 Studys, 1 Bridge. Never find a Dredger and he combo out turn 4.
SB: -4 Lion's Eye Diamond +2 Firestorm, +1 Dread Return, +1 Iona
G2: I mull to 6 and manage to Firestorm two Dredgers in the yard slowing him down a bit, dredge nothing good with Troll, and he Crypts me out. I don't have another discard outlet, and procede do die.
R2: Deadguy Ale (BW Stoneforge) (2-0)
G1: I open with a turn 1 Putrid into turn 2 Breakthough and just blow him out. He's never into this game, but he plays Scrubland -> Sensei's Divining Top, so I put him on Deadguy.
SB: nothing
G2: I open with Putrid Imp again, and he goes Scrubland -> Sensei's. I drop a Stinkweed in my upkeep, and dredge a Narcomoeba and Therapy. I therapy naming Surgical, he reveals Enlightened Tutor and nothing else relevant. I procede to drop a land, and Careful Study twice, flipping half my deck, but can't find the second Therapy. But I do hit a Dread Return and another narcomoeba, as well as 2 Bridge from Below. I just reanimate a 6/6 Troll and make 6 Zombies. He tutors for Crypt and remove my GY, but is too far behind in the race.
R3: Burn (2-0)
G1: He drops Figure of Destiny turn 1. I drop 12 zombies and 4 Therapys in turn 1.
SB: +1 Iona, Shield of Emeria, +1 Dread Return -1 Ichorid, -1 Breakthrough.
G2: I keep a hand with 2 Putrid Imp, 2 Dredgers, City and Cephalid. He starts with Goblin Guide, giving me a Tarnished Citadel. I dump a dredger in the yard, and he removes it with Faerie Macabre. I discard the second Dredger, and go nuts with Cephalid Coliseum. My Bridges are removed with Surgical, but I manage to bring back Iona to seal the deal.
R4: Maverick (2-0)
G1: I start with PImp + LED. He starts with Dryad Arbor, lol. I go for Coliseum into Looting chain, and flip my entire deck. Cast all Cabal Therapies and in the 4th one I name Lord of Atlantis, just for the lulz.
SB: -1 Ichorid, -1 Breakthrough, +2 Firestorm
G2: He starts with fetch into Noble Hierarch. I go for the Breakthrough + LED + Looting stuff, and he justs dies with Wheel of Sun and Moon in hand. Now Lord of Atlantis gave space to Mogg Fanatic, as my Therapy choice of target.
R5: Show and Tell (2-1)
G1: He starts cantriping, and FoW my Breakthrough after a DDD. I start slowdredging and hit all my Therapys, putting him far behind. I start bashing with 2 Zombies. When he's at 4, he Show and Tells Emrakul and I just drop a 5/5 Troll and swing for the win.
SB: +2 Tarnished Citadel +4 Nature's Claim, -4 Lion's Eye Diamond, -2 Breakthough (I saw him SBing 4 cards, so I put him on Leyline).
G2: He mulligans to 6, and drop Show and Tell for Emrakul turn 1. I therapy him and see Tormod's Crypt. Yay.
SB: -4 Nature's Claim, -2 Tarnished, +4 Lion's Eye Diamond, +2 Breakthrough
G3: He mulls to 5, and I Therapy for Brainstorm, hitting twice. He doesn't have any countermagic, nor cantrips, and I just roll him.
4-1 on the swiss, 3rd on the standings. Won 12 packs of Avacyn Restored boosters, and procede do open nothing but a Bonfire of the Damned.
Top 8: Show and Tell (2-1)
G1: He mulls to 6, and I DDD into Breaktough, but it gets Spell Pierced. He Show and Tells turn 3, and I don't have enough graveyard to beat him.
SB: nothing, he doesn't SB as well.
G2: He mulls to 5, and I mull to 4. But my keep is: City of Brass, Faithless Looting, Lion's Eye Diamond, and Golgari Grave-Troll. I go all-in and he doesn't have Force. I hit 1 Narcomoeba, 3 Bridges and 2 Therapys and leave his hand with 2 Lands and Emrakul. He can't recover.
G3: He cantrips, I go for the turn 1 Breakthrough + LED, and he doesn't have Force. GG
Top 4: Belcher (2-1)
G1: He Burning Wish 10 goblins turn 1 on the play. I make 12 zombies turn 1 on the draw.
SB: +1 Iona, Shield of Emeria, +1 Dread Return, -1 Putrid Imp, -1 Ichorid
G2: I mulligan to 6, and keep a Putrid Imp + Thug + Study hand. He goes for turn 1 Belcher.
SB: nothing
G3: I keep a lousy turn 2 Coliseum hand, and he goes for Burning Wish with storm count 7. He fails to find his Empty the Warrens and I call the Judge for a deck check. His sideboard has 14 cards and his deck has 61. He gets a game loss. YAY.
Finals: Esper Stoneblade (2-0)
G1: I play Putrid Imp. He plays Fetch. I discard Troll and Dredge, followed by Breakthough, he scoops in response.
He has to go and concede game 2, as he already has his spot in the National. So I end 1st :D
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
Rest in Peace 1W
Enchantment
When Rest in Peace enters the battlefield, exile all cards from all graveyards.
If a card or token would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, exile it instead.
Illus. Terese Nielsen
This seems really bad for us. White decks might actually pick this one up for their sideboard, where noone actually wanted to play grafdiggers cage.
Seems like chain of vapor won't even be too effective against this.
Forget about sideboard and worry about being in the main.
This card can be Enlightened Tutored. While decks that aren't creature-based are typically slow, meaning that they will be using a really quick way to win late game. This card conveniently fits with Helm of Obidience. So on top of green creature decks packing Scavenging Ooze, Dredge needs to worry about white decks packing this.
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