Originally Posted by Que
I really like the look of this list/sb. I think shaving 1 ichorid and 1 imp for two lands main is fine and I'm a big fan of firestorm. I'll test it out.
In response to the thread in general it seems to me that most people side out led in multiple matches. When we cut DR the reasoning was it always gets sided out and only helps a lot game one when you should already be winning. Whether led or ledless game one should be a win, so if that is the case and if led is often coming out then maybe it is time to evaluate led more closely.
"Dredge isn't a deck, it's public masturbation with graveyard triggers."
How would you play against combo if you lack the speed of LED?In response to the thread in general it seems to me that most people side out led in multiple matches. When we cut DR the reasoning was it always gets sided out and only helps a lot game one when you should already be winning. Whether led or ledless game one should be a win, so if that is the case and if led is often coming out then maybe it is time to evaluate led more closely.
Storm: Leyline of sanctity? Iona?
Show and Troll: No idea if they get counter + turn 2 Emrakul... Maybe peacekeeper or sudden spoiling? Chain of vapor?
Painter/MUD: Nature's Claim?
Maybe FKZ can be useful too.
You can try Innocent Blood.
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
The same way we did before looting was spoiled and everyone was on ledless? Cabal therapy is pretty good against combo, especially storm. Unmask is always an sb option as well. Using DR with sun Titan or grizzly Adams and fkz works too if you desperately need to race.
With led builds are you mulling into led everytime you see combo? I sure don't. Just be smart with therapy and keep good hands.
"Dredge isn't a deck, it's public masturbation with graveyard triggers."
Yea I don't ever look to LED as the "gotta have it" card. I'd never mull to it regardless. I mull to "Do I have a Dredger, a way to put him in the yard quickly and a way to start dredging all on this turn?" Isn't that the goal? I don't care what cards get me there, just get me there! I will say, if I have something like LED, a Troll and a Looting, I'm keeping that. But I look for more of a "package", not an LED alone.
No, LED and Dread Returns are not comparable, LED is instrumental in giving Dredge a chance to win vs Storm, and to a lesser extent Reanimator, while Dread Returns doesn't contribute in any meaningful way against any particular match up.
LEDless Dredge loses vs Storm and Reanimator, arguing otherwise is nothing short of being ignorant. Furthermore LED isn't boarded out every game against every deck, you'll see LED boarded out game 2 and boarded back in game 3 because the opponent doesn't have the ability to play a pro-active Tormod's Crypt on the draw.
I don't mind LEDless in a light combo, heavy aggro-control metagame myself, but you don't just cut LED using the same argument we used to cut Dread Return because they are two completely seperate issues.
I don't understand. LED dredge can win Storm only on turn 2 at earliest. LEDless dredge can DR Iona, FKZ or Hypnotist turn 2, and they're all insta win against them.
What am I missing?
Cabal Therapy is what usually beats most Storm decks. The more Cabal Therapies you get in your graveyard by turn one or two the more likely you are to win against any given storm deck.
In one Legacy tournament I played I beat Reanimator in the second to last round and TES in the last round to make 1st place. I played a usual pre-Lootings LEDless list and, among other things, won against a potential turn two Elesh Norn and a potential Turn three Elesh Norn plus turn 2 Surgical Extraction.
LED Dredge is only faster than LEDless if it draws LED, which you have a 40% chance of. If you say that LEDless just loses to those two decks, so does LED. The chance that this one card wins you the game where Tribes wouldn't in those matchups is very very small. You sound like 4 cards could change your matchup from 20% to 50%. In fact, it probably changes it from 35% to 40%, maybe 45%. And the interesting question is if those 5-10% are worth 4 sideboard slots.
My point exactly, thank you Joe. I'm not saying DR and LED are directly comparable, nor did I say LED gets boarded every match, just lots of them. My only comparison between LED and DR is that both in some situations help us win faster but neither is necessary for winning games. When I played LEDless I would dread return hypnotist or iona and it was GG against storm. The goal of the storm match for me is always as Joe stated to see as many therapies as possible. Saying that LEDless straight loses to storm is absolutely ridiculous, both decks can "go off" as soon as T2, Ledless dredge can actually disrupt storm while still focusing on it's plan A.
Have to agree here, saying 4 cards completely changes your percentages is just ridiculous. To be clear I'm not necessarily saying LED should come out of the deck, however I do think it could be the right call. The sideboard slots that open up as well as the defense you get from tribe could be very well worth it.
"Dredge isn't a deck, it's public masturbation with graveyard triggers."
Just to add a few things.
A lot of negative things can be said about Dread Return and I am against maindecked Dr packeges myself, but saying that specific DR targets don't do anything is plain wrong, sorry. The storm player can hide his LED and Infernal Tutor with a Brainstorm and kill you next turn, no matter how many Therapies you throw at him. If you drop Iona on black, the game is over. You're never going to beat the Lands deck with Zombies and Therapies if it has its lock pieces active, but Iona stops most of the lock cold and Terastodon and friends just blow everything up. Ask Gerry Thompson how much a Therapy or two did in his match against Kaitlin Lindburgs Hypergenesis deck, but had he found the Blazing Archon early enough, he would have won the match.
To cut the matter short, DR targets are definitely useful, but depending on the decks you're going to face you might consider other cards more important and you might thus not have enough room for them. That does not mean by any means that DR is completely useless and that it's wrong to play it.
As to how often LED is boarded out, I think everyone does that differently and there is probably no right way to do it. If you play quadlaser, you should probably leave it in most of the time, because you need some amount of discard and your 75 don't feature anything better than LED anyway. If you play say a few Tireless Tribes in the board, you should board LEDs out for them much more often. The permanent discard dorks are better than LED against all kinds of graveyard hate out there, which is one thing to consider. LED can outrace hate from now and then, though (especially Ooze), which is another thing to consider (although it really never happens when it counts).
Iona can be bounced.
Proper discard is crippling to all combo decks.
Dread Return is fine as another angle of attack against a Storm player if you are already using it, but Cabal Therapies are the most reliant and effective way to beat a storm deck.
LED Dredge gives you consistency, can give you more Therapys thanks to that same consistency and although it doesn't give you DR targets (in case you don't play it), you can run all that Chain of Vapor, Nature Claim and so on, in your SB...
Not to mention how useless DR can be in certain matches if you played enough games with both decks to understand that!
All I wrote here is not new as you can see if you read a bit more closely this thread.
I didn't quote anyone and I don't think it's necessary, but I agree that I won't mull to infinity if I don't find a LED in the opening :)
Saying 4 cards completely changes your percentages is not ridiculous, ask every aggro-control palyer to remove their Force of Wills vs Storm and see what happens to their win rate ... It's not a question of drawing LED 40% of the time in your opening hand, it's a question of drawing LED 40% of the time in your opening hand, mulliganing into LED in your opening hand or drawing into LED.
Dread Return does not win the game quicker, it ends the game quicker, there's a find distinction between cards that generate tempo, card advantage and board position and cards that capatalize off of those factors in order to kill your opponent.
Ofcourse resolving a Dread Return on a target can have a game altering affect, the problem tho' is that unless you're playing against Storm specifically, you're trying to resolve a Dread Return on a target thru' hate when you should be concentrating on grinding thru' your opponent's hate instead. If you're allowed to Dredge freely, it doesn't matter what you kill your opponent with because you were allowed to Dredge freely. This is why you see so many bad players with bad lists win with Dredge, because if the deck isn't hated it automatically wins. It's the players who start every game facing a Surgical Extraction or Tormod's Crypt that are the good Dredge players, because they focus on the problems the opponent gives them and not waste their time durdling with win more kill conditions.
Greetings dredge players. Its been awhile since I sleeved up dredge but now ive rebuilt my deck to help a brother get into legacy with something that can win against a variety. It is a LEDless version because I only own 4 LEDs which are in another deck. Besides ive been goldfishing this version and I like the way it rolls without the LEDS although I do miss the potential broken starts. Anyway I wanted to post my list for your judgement before I hand the deck over. I am somewhat limited in what cards I can "donate" so consider this when evaluating please. Here it is:
4 city of brass
4 gemstone mine
4 cephalid Colliseum
2 undiscovered paradise (no citadels atm)
4 golgari grave-troll
4 stinkweed imp
4 putrid imp
4 narcomoeba
4 ichorid
3 golgari thug
1 flayer of the hatebound
4 bridge from Below
4 faithless looting
4 careful study
4 breakthrough
4 cabal therapy
2 dread Return
Sideboard (considering these 16 what should go or change?)
3 natures claim
2 chain of vapor
1 ancient grudge
2 ashen ghoul
2 tireless tribe
2 memory’s journey
2 firestorm (something better?)
1 iona and/or elesh norn
Honorable mention:
4 leyline of the void
1-2 darkblast
So anyway there it is. Other than the double paradise' being awkward here and there is there any blatant issues? I played dredge years ago before LED was innovated and I forgot how strong 4 ichorids can be, so im pleased with that. Also 24 creatures makes big trolls for flayer. I chose flayer main because I felt it has the most utility with alternate win ability, killing oozes and so on. The deck will likely face maverick, storm, goblins, reanimator, elves, other dredge, sneak and show, MUD, tempo, burn, probably more. Thoughts?
You guys are all getting far too hung up on the fact that I mentioned DR. I never once said DR should be in the deck again, I don't play with DR and I'm happy with that decision just like most of you. What I DID say was that I think Tireless Tribe may deserve maindeck slots in place of using LED. LED itself does not actually add to consistency, the deck is consistent because it is redundant, something it can still achieve in an LEDless build. I've played dredge for the past four years, I know very well how inconsistent DR is and how much more consistent Quadlazer is. Also since we are talking about the combo match up I'm not really sure why it is relevant to discuss using claim/chain of vapor or how that is relevant to the conversation of LED in general...
Comparing any other deck to dredge is moot, Force of Will changes the match up for aggro control because they also pack cards like brainstorm and actually use their draw step to draw said cards. After turn 1 you barely ever should be drawing cards so when LED is not in your opener or the hand you mulled into then it really did nothing to help you where as aggro control decks can keep hands without force and know that they can still brainstorm/ponder into them. So yes basically it IS a question of having LED in your opener (be it naturally drawn or mulled into) because if you are playing against storm and drawing cards each turn to find that LED they are just going to kill you.
I agree that LED sets you up and DR ends games, yes those are two very different things, once again I did not compare DR to LED beyond the fact that they both got boarded out a lot and aren't actually necessary to winning games. Seriously that is as far as my comparison went. LED and DR have completely different functions, most people have recognized that the functions of DR are largely unneccessary. Despite the fact that LED has a COMPLETELY different set of functions it is also unneccessary and in the right meta could very possibly be cut. That was my ONLY comparison. Any comparing of the two you do beyond that is yours not mine.
Obviously dredge has to fight against the hate being brought in. That is what we all train to do for games two and three. That being said I have met very few storm players who board much against dredge, they are generally faster then us and they know it so usually they just concentrate on going off before we do. Storm is one of the only match ups (beyond maverick) where we don't really have to worry about hate and all we have to focus on is going off.
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To repost since the waters have been so muddled by nonsense about DR, is it possible that LEDless could make a comeback in a meta largely defined by rug, maverick, goblins, uw control, and merfolk with very little combo? I don't know what everyone's meta looks like but the American meta as a whole (as looked at by SCG Top 8s and GP Atlanta primarily) is largely dominated by aggro-control strategies with little combo showing up at the top tables. Since LED is primarily good against combo (and maverick) whereas Tireless Tribe and more lands would do better against RUG, Merfolk, Goblins, and Stoneblade it seems like cutting LED could be a realistic option. I don't know whether or not now is the right time, hence attempting to start a discussion on it. If we could avoid talk of DR for this specific conversation and compare lists running Tribe to lists with LED perhaps we could actually get some constructive conversation.
EDIT: I'll post what I'm thinking of running for an LEDless build when I get home from work today.
"Dredge isn't a deck, it's public masturbation with graveyard triggers."
LED dredge with Faithless Looting feels as consistent(not as fast or powerful) as Vintage dredge. I can expect to have 15++ cards in my graveyard almost all of my game ones by turn two if I go uninterrupted.
LEDless dredge is a budget version of dredge now.
Hey Dredge Dudes...Im preparing for a tourny and expect there to be a fair amout of Dredge. I'm a little inexperienced when playing it so I'm not sure what I should Sb against it. Here are my options:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Faerie Macabre
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Relics of Protgenus
Which of those are the most effective against you?
It depends on your deck really.
Chalice of the Void is the least useful though.
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