It seems a little weak in the main. And I don't think this tips the balance for maindecking Etutor in higher numbers (I know some decks run it, but seems like most board in 2 tutors with a couple bullets). If you look at the DTB, it only is amazing against dredge and reanimate, with some spash damage to Mongoose/goyf, but terrible against Mav, goblins, merfolk, miracles, and Show and tell decks.
That being said, I think this is the strongest white graveyard hate printed to date. It's tormods crypt and a castable leyline in a single card, at the cost of shutting off snapcaster mage and lingering souls - but that hardly seems like much of a problem.
Rest in Peace will only be maindecked in some quirky Helm of Obediance decks, but considering those aren't competive with Leyline of the Void then I don't foresee it being more competive with this card.
There are a few reasons this won't be maindecked.
One reason it won't be maindecked is the fact that it is symmetrical. What deck doesn't use the graveyard one bit and uses white? Ok, could you really see this going into a Death and Taxes maindeck?
The second reason it won't be in maindecks is that it can't cycle itself like Relic of Progenitus. It is a dead card in too many matchups.
I don't see a whole lot of decks using this a sideboard card. Mostly because Relic of Progenitus is usually better in most situations at similar mana cost.
All that being said, it really irks me that WotC feels inclined to print graveyard hate in every set. Couldn't they print some Show and Tell hate that can be used in all colors instead? Give us dredge players a break.
Nice one! Congratulations!Originally Posted by Vandalize
Btw, I'm from Minas Gerais. I'll try to watch the National.
People might still have a maindeck relic if they want MD GY hate, but out of the sideboard, this thing is king for white decks.
The 3 decks to beat that you bring in GY hate against are Dredge, Reanimate, and RUG, and this is great against all 3.
And this is much scarier than relic.
If you build up your GY through relic and they pop relic, its gone, and if you have set up your hand correctly, you can just drop some more dredgers and go to town. Against this, it eats our GY, and then we need to deal with it, after they have already gotten value from it.
We are more likely to be able to hit it with a cabal therapy, but it also incentivizes them to fight the therapy until it comes down.
People cried the sky is falling with Grafdiggers cage, but grafdiggers cage did not do any splash damage to decks like RUG, or maverick. At least this one can only be run in white decks, but I think those decks will run it.
Grafdigger's Cage is more likely to see play than Rest in Peace, and Grafdigger's Cage only sees marginal play. The fact of the matter is, if your graveyard hate costs 2cc then you deserve to get a Morning Tide and Planar Void all in one, because the likelyhood the Dredge player either A) kills you before you can play it or B) discards it before you can cast it are extremely relevant considerations compared to Surgical Extraction, which is free and can be cast on your opponent's turn and Tormod's Crypt, which is free.
Like, unless you're playing Force of Will, I don't even think Tormod's Crypt is viable hate vs Dredge, because I've played vs both Ravager Affinity and Mogg Fanatic Goblins that could remove my Bridge from Belows as a natural mechanic of their deck and they still routinely lost game 3.
Unless Helm of Obedience becomes a thing, I'm more worried about Judge's Familiar, Dryad Militant and Deathrite Shaman than this.
Looking at the DTBs of the month, I've noticed Omniscience (Omnishow would be more aesthetic, btw).
Anyone faced this matchup? I still have too much problems against Sneak Attack, but this one seems stronger (harder to outrace).
How to deal with them?
QFT
You hit the nail on the head Final, RIP is to slow and really won't be played in many decks other than decks that have better options anyway (like Wheel Of The Sun And Moon), RIP isn't one-sided so the decks that utilize their own GY won't play it (which are most decks in the format, when was the last time you saw a Maverick deck board in Relic?)
I could see Void Helm ending up like Griffins, then again it is now much more powerful thanks to RIP, but still not good
Currently Playing:
Dredge, The Rock, Lands, Spiral Tide, Affinity
I've never lost vs show and tell. It's just about keeping the right hand- either ones that enable cabal therapy very early or hands with a insane fatty (Griselbrand, and angel of despair are the main ones I can think of but a iona isn't too bad- locking them out of blue is nice). It helps that I run a 3dr build post board and a 4 therapy 2dr build pre board.
Edit:(and by show and tell I'm including hive mind, old school s+t, sneak and show, and omnishow.)
Any sentencethat starts with the words "can only be run in white decks" should bother us as much as " can only be run in Burn".At least this one can only be run in white decks, but I think those decks will run it.
And befor you ask: No, I don't consider Terminator nor UWx Blade a "white deck" and I also don't believe that those decks will run it.
Seriously just stick to the things Fortune allready said and don't worry about this card.
But at least the artwork is nice.
Also: congratz to Vandalize ( allthough I don't like the 2 Firestorms in your board, as they appear to be to random to matter, in most scenarios) and good luck for the nationals.
Our music means nothing, except for what it means to
you.
Game 1 is in the bag, match up comes down to the severity of their SB hate i.e. Surgical Extraction vs Leyline of the Void etc. Personally I've really given up trying to give Omniscience a chance at beating Dredge and Reanimator over 3 games, I just play Faerie Macabre to give myself the best Reanimator match up I can and pray it's enough vs. Dredge.
No worries IMO.
I have a few questions about Dredge - hoping someone could help me out?
Looking to build a dredge deck, but unsure which way I should go.
I just don't have the money currently for LED,
it's a crucial part of the deck I know, and without it Faithless isn't so important, etc.
Thinking about MANA-less VS LED-less Build???
So, given all the grave-hate in Legacy, (including the new Rest in Peace), and the difficulty Mana-less has playing around hate - is Mana-less even competitive?
I've looked at a few LED-less lists, and seen them run a few different options, like Tireless Tribe & Putrid Imp (with free draw spells like Street Wraith/Gitaxian Probe)
Provided a deck has a heavy threat/dredge density, is these two above cards (Imp & Tribe) really the best way to get around having no LED in the deck?
And is Faithless Looting okay without it also?
Last edited by slave; 09-21-2012 at 04:16 AM.
I would probably start with something like the old Konkurs Ledless Dredge list with another Sideboard or with the Quadlaser Build - 4 LED + 3 Citadels +1 Tribe/Firestorm and replace the Lands in the Sideboard of the Quadlaser with Tribes/Firestorms. Looting deserves a place in Ledless as well. It helps post board in finding hate, is an enabler and a discard spell.
There was another interesting Version with Maindeck Firestorms in the German Forums, but this was pre-Looting.
Firestorms maybe a good Sideboard card post-Ravnica though, with all those Hatebears popping up left and right.
If you are interested in Manaless I would recommend Hollywoods decklist. It has Maindeck removal which can be used against hatebears or protect Ichorid froms Stp and so on and can fight hate with Claims and Reverent silence.
Manaless feels much more consistent and can fight easier through Surgicals due to the high thread density in your GY. It also feels much more dredgy :-)
Ledless/Led-Dredge can mulligan if needed and can be more explosive due to Breakthrough and other enablers. It feels also easier to fight hate with it. You can just blow up their hate. Discard a Dredger to Imp/Tribe and go all out with your Drawspells.
Manaless has to use some cards to fight the hate and time walks itself a bit until you can go on dredging again.
You might get problems with fast combo decks with Manaless and Ledless Dredge though.
Greetings Mindlash
"I came into this world covered in someone else's blood and screaming, I'd like to leave it the same way."
Quick question, kinda noobish too so I'm sorry... Is there anyway I can cast Breakthrough, wait for them to say it resolves before cracking my LED? Because all this time I've been casting Breakthrough and then cracking LED even before opponents can get a chance to respond. I am not entirely sure about the "PRIORITY" rule really... I can't even break LED in response to Breakthrough on MTGO
On mtgo, you have to hold down ctrl key to retain priority, or something like that.
And, no. You have to cast BT, hold priority, then crack LED in response. If you don't, your opponent will simply let BT resolve, which doesn't give you a chance to crack LED, which is.. Bad
You have to crack LED before you pass priority. If you pass priority before the LED crack you will not get the chance again to crack it before Breakthrough resolves if your opponent doesn't respond.Quick question, kinda noobish too so I'm sorry... Is there anyway I can cast Breakthrough, wait for them to say it resolves before cracking my LED? Because all this time I've been casting Breakthrough and then cracking LED even before opponents can get a chance to respond. I am not entirely sure about the "PRIORITY" rule really... I can't even break LED in response to Breakthrough on MTGO
If they just Daze / Spellpierce you in response you can use the mana from LED to pay the taxes.
Edit: Slow Mindlash is slow :-/
"I came into this world covered in someone else's blood and screaming, I'd like to leave it the same way."
Thanks Mindlash!
Hollywoods' List does look pretty good, as do the others you mentioned.
I really like the consistency with Mana-less, but the LED version does look much faster.
LED versions look to me to be very much a combo deck.....
Some Manaless decks I've seen pack 4 Dread Returns and about 5 to 6 targets, like Griselbrand, Flayer etc. Looks like it wouldn't be too bad against SnT decks....
Manaless goes well against SNT if they have to pass the turn or your target is Angel of Despair. Happened more than once to me :-)
LED Dredge can be played with a combo-resque finish. I myself play the LED Quadlaser List most of the time, which plays more like an aggro-control grinder.dec with a combo-engine :-)
If you want to go LEDdredge sooner or later I would recommend not to go with Manaless, because the alternatives I posted contain most stuff of LED-Dredge so you can minimize the money you have to spend (though Manaless is really cheap by itself ^^).
"I came into this world covered in someone else's blood and screaming, I'd like to leave it the same way."
Speaking of LED Dredge vs. Manaless Dredge:
I'm contemplating to update my old list. I am not planning to pilot it more often (I have MUD as my primary deck) but I do like having options when the local meta shifts.
Anyways, what would be the better deck to catch a meta that will run less gravehate but resilient enough against the current DtB list?
Personally I'm contemplating on upgrading to Manaless since its cheaper ($240 for playset of LED is debatable in my budget).
Thanks in advance!
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
Both decks are capable to catch a meta off guard.
Manaless may have easier times against the hate you can run occasionally into like Surgical Extraction or Tormod's Crypt due to the higher thread density.
LED Dredge has an easier time to deal with permanent hate due to multiple cmc1 discard outlets to restart dredging after the coast is clear.
I do not have any accurate percentages on specific matchups, but both decks do well against RUG Delver and Miracle Control. Blade Control feels easier with Manaless to me although it is totally doable with LED Dredge as well.
Maverick on the other feels easier with LED Dredge due to the explosive starts which Manaless is lacking. I have no experiences with Manaless against Maverick, but I remember Hollywood saying something like: Turn 2 Ooze with 1 open mana is highly unlikely and even then you still can kill their Noble with your removal in their upkeep.
Goblins can kill your Bridges easily and do some annoying stuff with Krenko. But again..Manaless has the high thread density and removal, while LED Dredge has the explosive starts.
ANT, Belcher and the like should be easier for LED Dredge due to its speed. I don't think Manaless has good chances here. Same goes for Reanimator and the mirror.
Omnitell might also be a little bit worse for Manaless unless they SnT and cannot finish you of the same turn, while you drop Griselbrand :-)
Manaless feels a bit like a tank to me. It has a more slow playstyle at the beginning, but every dredge is likely to reveal threats. Once you DR Griselbrand the Deck explodes (which is not unlikely to occur early due to 4 DR, 3 Grisel and lots of saccing material).
LED Dredge feels faster and menacing in the beginning, but often dredges lands or studies which do not bring more pressure to the table. I love it to create a lot of Zombies before my opponents first turn while stripping their hand apart ;-)
I think it is more of a personal choice and how much you want to invest. I like the feeling of LED Dredge and once I got my LEDs it was easy to build a Belcher too (which is lots of fun once in a while ^^). I also play ANT. So my LEDs really paid off.
If you don't want to play the deck very often and have no other use for LED I would prefer Manaless because it is cheaper and in times where your Meta is infested by Leylines and the like you can still play your MUD Deck :-)
Greetings Mindlash
PS: Feel free to correct / add something to this. I wrote it mostly out of my own experiences and I haven't played Manaless very often lately. Just some random online games or playtesting with friends.
"I came into this world covered in someone else's blood and screaming, I'd like to leave it the same way."
Can someone help me and give me some tips about the Miracle match-up? I find it very difficult to win post board. They board in tons of hate, Surgical, Grafdigger's Cage (via Enlightened Tutor).. Plus they have Terminus, Swords to Plowshares, Counterbalance as usual..
I play a LEDless Quadlaser, -4 LED +3 Tarnished Citadel + 1 Dread Return, and that's my Board:
1 Griselbrand
1 Dread return
4 Leyline of The Void
4 Firestorm
4 Nature's Claim
1 Free Slot (have to fill it!)
I was testing with a friend of mine preparing for a 60-70 people tournament on the 21th of Oct. I won G1 not so easily, but, anyway, I thought, Miracle is though, it could be that's quite difficult even G1.
I did my usual boarding, as Final Fortune taught me some pages before +1 DR +1 Griselbrand and I chose to do -2 Breakthrough this time. I also thought that Firestorm could have been great as a uncounterable discard outlet and an unexpected way to close the game, so I did -2 Breakthrough -2 Faithless Looting +4 Firestorm. So.. I was unprepared to Grafdigger's Cage, and I didn't expect it! Ok, that's my fault, I thought, I should have thought to Cage.. So I went on beating with Imps bringing him to 4. My game-ending Firestorm gets countered and Entreat the Angels closes the game.
I boarded this way: -4 Firestorm +4 Claim
G3 he shows early Cage, I have Claim and I draw Therapy. Unfortunately the way to disrupt his hand via Therapy and "counter-me" spells (I'm sorry I don't know the English word!) like looting and study is too long, and when I finally destroy Cage EOT, manage to reanimate 2 Ichorids, then the next turn he shows me Entreat the Angels..
Maybe I have to fill my free slot with Ingot Chewer! I'm sure I played and boarded wrong!
"You must believe you are the best, and then make sure you are" Bill Shankly
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