Traditionally, yes. I play the slow game. So to speak. That's simply not how things are any longer though. Until recently, only decks that had stack or hand interaction played Surgical. You'd never see a deck that has neither, like DnT, do so since they odds of their hitting what they desire were far too low. That mean counters, and/or discard. Typically those are slower decks, so playing around Surgical was fine. More directly towards your question, I don't feel it's necessary to board directly for Surgical. Diversification seems to work best. Adding a couple of Amalgams to supplement your Ichorids. Running PImp, so that intelligent players seriously have to pause before trying to Surgical a dredger. Running Dread, no targets, vs decks we typically wouldn't. So if we go off fast they have to Surgical Narco. And if more grindy, Bridge. With either single case, it's pretty easy to still get 3 creatures to Dread. And most of the decks running Surgical don't run White. And, yes, Unmask. With the decks that ran Surgical, hitting counters was often as good as Surgical since a Breakthrough could often power you through one. And waiting until you had a Therapy, or just needing a superfluous Black card wasn't much of an issue due to their slower clock. That said, this is no longer the case. Most of the format, at an exceedingly high level when filtering down towards the lesser skilled players, now have the fear of B/R Reanimator. And they're running tons of Surgical and Macabre since, as I mentioned, they have no interaction off the board. Which wouldn't be an issue, except it's not universal. You can see a DnT player running 2 Macabre, 2 Surgical, and right next to them another running 2 Priest, 3 RiP. I don't have a conclusion for you here. This is why I switched to Force. Its certainly not the most consistant, nor resource-light measure. But it does allow me a universal answer to hate from non-interactive decks that doesn't force me to diverge from the deck's primary gameplan.Originally Posted by HansoRaptor
~ Team Unicorn Motto
Thanks, that is a lot of insight. Do you have a decklist perhaps? I'm interested in checking it out. Could't find something the last 3-4 pages.
Just for a generic meta. Rider not needed if Lands and Show or the like aren't relevant;
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
2 Prized Amalgam
2 Putrid Imp
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Mana Confluence
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
1 City of Brass
2 Firestorm
2 Unmask
1 Lotus Petal
3 Wear/Tear
1 Ashen Rider
2 Dread Return
4 Force of Will
~ Team Unicorn Motto
I see that you've shifted away from Serenity, and moved on to Wear/Tear. What led to that decision? Do you bring in Wear/Tear for the same match ups that you did Serenity? Or is it more flexible, and therefore it can be used against more decks.
Thanks in advance - always love hearing your thoughts on Dredge!
I honestly haven't been playing much. So that list has not been changed to what it probably should be. That said, yes, Wear is more flexible in general. But the switch was mainly due to Aggro Loam, and to a lesser degree Shardless, keep in Decay post board. When you're boarding Serenity against them, the odds of you getting it, being able to cast, then resolve it, and it lasting to your following upkeep are too poor.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
That's too bad. I was going to ask you to come on my stream, and teach me your ways.
Sorry to say, I don't even have a MODO account.That's too bad. I was going to ask you to come on my stream, and teach me your ways.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
I've been on 3 fragmentize in board (until my 4th foil shows up in the mail) for a few weeks now and I have been liking it more and more. No life gain, great cmc, and hits near every hate card.
What's the advantage over Wear//Tear? The only thing I can see is that you only have to pay one mana to destroy an artifact, but Wear//Tear is instant speed, not stopped by chalice on one, and has fuse, which can sometimes destroy two permanents at once. Is there something I'm missing?
Dredge can't always wait around to get to 3 mana, and I don't want them to gain 4 life from natures claim. It's not like I sold my foil wear // tears. After I play a deck for a decade +, I like to try new stuff. So spending one mana and hitting the one hate card that matters without anyone gaining life seems like something worth trying out. So far, it hasn't mattered that it wasn't instant at all.
What would be a replacement, in case as you said Lands or Show aren't relevant? You believe another DR target might be a fine choice?
TEAM MtG Berlin
"Dredge isn't a deck, it's public masturbation with graveyard triggers."
Sure. There's a bunch. All well known. Take your pick. I just don't feel that one is needed to beat decks other than Lands.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
I like Iona or Ashen Rider myself, but then I don't even maindeck a DR anymore.
Yeah... me too. I thought I was out, and then it pulls me back in.....
After I almost exclusively ran the blue FoW plan with Manaless Dredge about 4-5 years back and testing it thoroughly for almost a year, and since then using the blue plan with LED-Dredge both maindecking and sideboarding FoW and other blue stuff, and testing that a mind-numbing amount of times against real humans, I recently gave it a break. I went back to playing simple sides for LED-Dredge for 3 legacy meets, optimal maindeck.
And, well, the blue is something I instantly missed.
My win/lose ratio has taken a big hit, this week I went down 1-3 like a cup of cold vomit, to white hate.
FoW potentially answers a whole lot of problems, and I even had one player (who knows my preference for FoW) mention that because I had no counter it was easier to beat me (he'd just landed a RiP at the time - smug mode engaged).
My point is, I guess I just prefer the blue approach to Dredge these days, given that hate is both widespread and potent.
I'm running two amalgam currently, I find 3 is too many.
Hey all!
As this is my first post in the thread - let this be both a brief self-introduction as well as a tournament report from yesterday. I've been playing Dredge religiously for a bit over a month now, caught the early end of the railbirdgaming stream with Que before playing in a 1k the day after where I finished with a pretty mediocre 3-3 record. I was surprised, however, to find that the deck actually feels very resilient to hate depending on play style and sideboard choices, and that I was very much enjoying the playstyle. Previously I did not enjoy the "dredge for 4 turns into a combo" gameplay feeling with manaless dredge but LED Dredge felt like a completely different 75. I've played legacy for a couple of years now and spend a good deal of time reading the vast majority of Established Deck threads here on thesource, so I mostly enjoy playing decks involving Cabal Therapy before or while killing opponents with some form of combo or graveyard effects.
Yesterday was a slightly smaller 6 round tournament at the same location (35 players), and the practice and familiarity that I had gained with the deck had certainly paid off in the month since the 3-3 finish.
My matchups and tournament report:
Round 1 against Urs on Affinity (1-2). Game 1 goes longer than expected, as my opponent stalls out the game by buffing a Vault Skirge to 5/5 with a Tezzeret. Ichorid and Zombie beats get the game 1 concession. Game 2 I keep a semi-strong hand, but Urs' hand was stronger with a t0 Leyline of the Void and quick aerial beats. Game 3 went similarly, with me keeping a strong turn 1 hand but again faltering to a t0 Leyline followed by a t2-t3 hardcast leyline. After he kills me with Skirges, he shows me that he had yet another Leyline in hand. Ouch.
0-1
Round 2 against Aren on B/R Reanimator (2-0). Game 1 my opponent gets an early Chancellor of the Annex into play, but I get multiple Narcomoebas into play with multiple Bridges in the grave. He soon concedes with little left in hand. Game 2 I get slowed down by multiple Faerie Macabres, but I manage to slow-dredge towards a victory while he struggles to find a suitable reanimation spell for his Elesh Norn in the graveyard. We play a third game for fun where he bounces all of my permanants with a Tidespout Tyrant.
1-1
Round 3 against Raphael on U/B/R Reanimator (2-0). Game 1 my opponent leads off with a Volcanic Island into a Ponder shuffle, then Unmasking me pitching Dismember to take my Lion's Eye Diamond. I draw a Lion's Eye Diamond and quickly beat him down while he fails to find what he needs to get an Elesh Norn into play. Game 2 my opponent keeps a stronger 7 and manages to get a Griselbrand out. I dredge a Thug instead of a Stinkweed Imp on my turn to keep the Stinkweed in the graveyard in case of an Exhume, which proves to be helpful as the next turn he draws 7 dropping himself to 4 life, before thoughtseizing himself to 2 to discard a Jin Gitaxias, and casts an Exhume precombat before swinging with Griselbrand. I offer the trade and stack my Bridge triggers, netting 2 zombies while he goes to 9. He passes turn, I swing with the zombies letting one get eaten by Jin so that he falls to 7 and cannot reanimate his Griselbrand or a potential Elesh Norn, hardcast a Golgari Thug that I use to Therapy him naming Exhume which hits while netting me a second zombie from a new Bridge from Below, and kill him the next turn when he lets himself get dropped to 1 for a Reanimate on Grave Titan. I bring back just enough creatures to hit him for lethal.
2-1
Round 4 against Oliver on Junk Aggro-Loam (1-1 went to time). Game 1 lasts a long time as my opponent kills his own Dryad Arbor repeatedly to exile Bridges and stalls out the game. I eventually manage to beat him down while holding a Marit Lage back with a single Narcomoeba. Game 2 is relatively uneventful - I get slowed badly by a Tabernacle, he quickly puts together a Marit Lage. We only have 2 minutes on the clock at the beginning of g3, I keep an aggressive 7 with no protection but he gets a Bojuka Bog into play, game goes to time.
2-1-1
Round 5 against Nico on U/W/r Miracles (2-1). Deck doesn't cooperate game 1 as I mulligan to 4 and up dredging 6 each turn without finding any real pressure in Ichorids, Narcomoebas, or Bridges. He assembles a fleet of Angels while fatesealing me with Jace, and I die. Game 2 I hit him hard when he forces my opening Careful Study, as I force back and hit an unmask, putting a Dredger in the graveyard and Unmasking him before casting a Breakthrough the next turn. He dies quickly. Game 3 he mulligans to oblivion while I get in with the 3-1 hasty horrors.
3-1-1
Round 6 win-and-in against Sebastian on Shardless Bug (2-0). I mulligan to 3. I originally thought my opponent was on D&T, which was proven false when my opponent started with a Swamp and the next turn a Wasteland + Jitte, however he draws no more lands for the next 5 or so turns while I manage to hit pressure on my first few dredges. Game 2 I force a t1 Deathrite and get a turn ahead of his followup Deathrite, he eventually has to beat in with a Shardless Agent equipped with Jitte to kill his own Agent for the Bridge exile trigger, but it isn't enough to slow me down.
4-1-1
Top 8 against Pascal on Miracles (2-1). We fight a hard game 1 where my board is repeatedly ravaged by Terminuses thanks to an early Top, but I play conservatively enough to maintain a modicum of pressure. We get into a situation where his last remaining card in hand is a Predict which he uses to Terminus me during combat, but second mainphase I play out a Thug which I use to Therapy him blind-naming Monastery Mentor which HITS, and also gets me a Narcomoeba back on top. He doesn't manage to climb back into the game after having lost the Mentor. Game 2 I rip all relevant interaction out of his hand, and my he goes to 17 life before I return all 3 Ichorids and my Ashen Ghoul into play to swing for 18 while he only has a tundra and a untapped top with no known cards on top, but he rips the blind Terminus to steal the game back. He apologizes multiple times for the blind Terminus. Game 3 I manage to crawl to a victory by returning 1 Ichorid at a time.
Top 4 against Gabriel on BUG Midrange (2-1). Game 1 is rough, I manage to get 30 cards in the graveyard off of a single Stinkweed Imp but I find no 2nd dredger and no narcomoebas to get Bridge triggers going before he starts exiling my relevant cards with a DRS. Game 2 I get there with a single Ichorid and Bridge. Game 3 I mull to 5, but keep a solid hand. He plays a t1 Deathrite, and I careful study and offer him a Golgari Grave-Troll, which he attempts to eat with DRS on his turn but I quickly cycle a Street Wraith to take the firm advantage, which I then leverage on my turn with a Lion's Eye Diamond into Faithless Looting. I quickly vomit a few zombies into play, which his deathrites are barely too slow to stall.
Finals against Nicolas on Academy Rector Nic-Fit (0-2). My luck runs out and I manage to make 0 zombies over the two games as Game 1 I get dropped by a quick Omniscience into Mentor + Lingering Souls, and Game 2 I have a rough opener while he gets a Deathrite active on me and surgicals my Narcomoebas. I dredge for a few turns for fun and lose to having 0 cards left in deck.
My decklist is shown second here:
http://blog.gameplace.ch/legacy-12-03-17/
Overall I was very happy with the 2nd place finish, especially having crawled back from the round 1 loss. I had a lot of unlucky and lucky games over the course of the day which seemed to balance out pretty well in the end. I have little else to say other than that I'll definitely continue playing the deck, as it seems to be performing for me and most importantly is a lot of fun for me to play.
May your dredges keep hitting gas and hope to chat with you all more in the thread over the coming months! Thanks especially to Que whose decklist I mostly copied before making my own touches, and whose advice greatly helped me learn to pilot the deck.
Nice report and congratz man, really liked that Old school techy. Did they perform well? What about the Forces? You think that two copies is a fine choice?
I got a pretty big tournament in the next days and am tempted to run a list similar to yours, but I already miss the Firestorms...
TEAM MtG Berlin
"Dredge isn't a deck, it's public masturbation with graveyard triggers."
Thanks a lot! Ashen Ghoul neither over- nor underperformed during the day, but I'm inclined to say that I would cut the one from the mainboard as the real use is for threat diversification against potential Surgical -> Snap Surgical out of the board. Would probably just go up to 4 Thugs. Amalgam constantly overperformed but I believe 2 is the proper number.
Sideboard Force of Will constantly overperformed, and I'd like to go up to 3 in the board for the next time. Both makes me feel as though I'm advantaged in combo matchups and feels great when playing on the draw. Countering a deathrite got me to the Finals - countering a Force got me to the win and in.
I exacly thought the same. I will probably even add the 4th Force and shave some numbers of Petals.
Some impressions will follow.
TEAM MtG Berlin
"Dredge isn't a deck, it's public masturbation with graveyard triggers."
I agree - 2 Prized Amalgam feels like the right number to me if you're on the FoW plan. That single card has serious game against miracles.
My list from the past weekend was featured on MTGGoldfish's weekly legacy article along with shoutouts/acknowledgement to Parcher and Que:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles...er-tournaments
Still missing the 4x Bridge from Below from the list but that should be pretty self-explanatory.
I liked the author's list at the end but I'm reluctant to go all the way up to 4 FoW despite being happy with moving up to 3.
Have any of you had some good results recently? :)
Hi. I've never played Dredge before in my life but since I have a playset of LEDs and Therapies without being used at all I got Echonance list and started to playtest some games online. Dredge looks fun to play :)
My main concern, is, I still don't own the Rainbow Lands in paper, so would it be possible to have a Dual-Lands based manabase? I have Underground Seas, Volcs and Tundras to build it with. Could it be possible to build a manabase with them until I acquire the Rainbows?
Thanks for the help.
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