Then play Thoughtseize, but I had similar feelings to you until I realized how important it was to be able to cast Unmask thru' Daze in order to discard Rest in Peace, you actually don't need a hand as nearly as powerful as that in order to leverage Unmask.Originally Posted by joemauer
I think either choice is ok, the point is you need discard vs RIP or you die.
reading all the posts, it looks like everyone has good ideas.
2 kinds of dredge players... comitting to lazer vs combo means your comfortable with grindy matches.
the meta is really tough in my region. the players study the game and dont make mistakes. facing affinity, reanimator/showtell, bug, blade and now merfolks back in the game. guaranteed to see lots of wastelands tons of counters/control, thalia, jailers, even had leylines played on me a few times. the tournaments are tough. im prepping for one on sunday.
im going combo for main. 2*dr using fkz and flayer
i'll be dropping LED's and singles of putrid imp breakthroughs and studys for the sb substitutes
the sb this tourny 4*firestorm, 4*leyline, 4*natures claim, 3*unmask
my biggest fears are chalice of the void, surgical extraction, rip, jailer and of course lotv
there are cards i would like to move on from..and just stay well rounded and fast.
no chains...requires cabal therapy followup to be effective
no ionna /elesh..legendary creatures get removed with karakas
no ancient grudge....can't cast without graveyard...goodluck casting from your hand...claims are hard enough until therapy has done its work drawing away his counters
wispmare ingots take up too many sb slots claim does both. bridge triggers cool but still...
I appreciate anyone offering game play by play in here. its difficult to get realistic input. nobody....nobody wants to "practice" vs dredge
I can't feel out sb slots properly unless its on occasions like tournaments. day by day play is too casual... need that anxiety level to play off of.
i want lotv/unmask pkg to shut down our bad matches vs reanimator....tired of those guys stealing our thunder on our "reanimator turf"
well i went 4-2 10th of 36. hoped to sneak in top 8 and get more experience. The decks there were straight business.
most games went as they should, steam rolling with ichorids and zombies. 2 wins with fkz and 1 win scooped when flayer entered.
the only losses i suffered didn't embarrass; there just wasnt enough time.
Match one was a bad start. faced belcher 1-2
he wins the roll and goes first no mulligan. has belcher in hand and proceeds to tie together mana from spirit guides, then probes, street wraiths, rite of flames, manamorphose , LED then of course belcher...you know the rest. game 2 of was hilarious. I'm on the play side side out 3 imps for 3 unmask and have to mulligan for a cantrip twice. i keep a careful study, stinky, city of brass, dread return and cabal therapy.(bad play; i should've mulled again)... i catch his belcher with therapy turn one and i get a turn two so i careful study my stinky into yard. he's stuck with no draw spells as am i. Turn 3 dredging imp get no more dredgers, nothing. we both contiue to draw for 5 turns. we both facepalmed and laughed. Eventually all the drawing pays off and dump stinky and start dredging again i go off with 2 cephalid coliseums and zombies takeover. i played this poorly imo. game 3 he goes first and belcher in hand again. "bah!
match 2 pox 2-1
wastelands, sinkholes, and then a tabernacle.. long grindy game with ichorids winning the day. game 2 he goes first gets in lilianna. nether void stops me. game 3 i play LED and careful study a troll and thug into the yard. on turn 2 breakthrough and looting from led into 4 bridges and 3 narcomoebas then dread return fkz for the win.
match 3 stoneblade 2-0
i go first putrid imp doing early damage as i keep discarding and dredging stinky to pump putrid imp. bridges and ichorids make an appearance and he plays mystic and a thalia. i casted firestorm for 2x . i had 2 mana so im ok. bridges enter graveyard and eventually zombies are everywhere and takes lethal damage when 2 more ichorids join the party.
game 2 he plays meddling mage turn 2 to shut down dread return. and thalia. i play my 3rd land so its ok. so i grind it out again. i destroyed his hand of all cantrips and counters with therapies. then attacks for the win. no sign of TNN.
match 4 variation of jund 2-1
he plays verdant catacombs...good i can go off uninterrupted.
i get deep into my grave early casting looting to dump 2 trolls in the yard and then turn 2 all in with breakthough and one land
and crack LED to dredge 2 thirds of my deck 3 bridges i dint bother with therapy just cast dr with fkz for the win.
game 2 he casts thought seize to remove my careful study and surgical extracts my troll. my slow dredge is too slow. his goyfs take over i scoop.
game 3 on the play i draw godly hand and see that i have 2 therapies in hand with led looting putrid stinky and city of brass i keep!
i call surgical and hit. he has maelstrom pulse, drs, thoughtseize, hypnotic spectre, and goyf. i toy with him and remove all of this including an abrupt decay he drew and he just scoops. he even had phyexian obliterators i didnt bother with since he wasnt casting anytime soon. he scoops.
match 5 sneak show 0-2
ugh just brutal. game one he goes first and show and tell turn two he plays emrakul. im dead turn 4
game 2 game is longer i have 2 putrid imp and dredge up a narcomoeba to beat him down. i remove a thug for the unmask i sided in takes a ponder, then therapy his show and tells and i see a brainstorm. I sac a narcomoeba and i call brainstorm. he plays it. next plays grafdiggers he picked up from brainstorm. (ugh)so i beat him down to 8. he topdecks a sneak attack and brings in grislebrand and attacks my open field gets 7 life and lets it die??? hmm ... next turn another one he draws 7 and flies in again its over. i scoop.
match 6 showtell reanimator 2-1
im on the play and blind call brainstorm w therapy to see whats up. he has animate dead, show tell, iona, exhume, daze, thought seize,
i continue to play out a great hand dredging into the 3 other therapies. i waste no time taking away the money cards and hes left with cards he wont play ... zombies everywhere.
game 2 i side unmask and had to mull to 4 cards to hit a land. he drops in iona on turn 2 then griselbrand turn 3 i scoop.
game 3 almost exactly as game 1.
only saw 2 pieces of serious hate. grafdiggers and surgical. both times they crippled me.
never needed firestorm although i played it once. never had to play lotv. sided natures claim in a few games but never needed them.
I'm leaning toward a sideboard like this for next tourny
gonna go 2 dr with fkz and flayer in main
3 chain of vapor
4 natures claim
3 unmask
3 firestorm
1 dread return
1 iona
wanted to face merfolks but didnt see them.
Played another tournament at my LGS Knightware Inc. in Studio City. I always appreciate Lori's tournaments as they're run rather smoothly.
Link to Thread:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...-2014-10-entry
As you can see from the above link I'm still on the Quadlazer train (-1 BT, +1 DR) with the same SB as before. Going forward I'm going to cut a Tarnished Citadel and one of the Pithing Needle in order to fit in two Firestorm. I don't really like the card, but I figure I could give it one last try. The 2nd Needle has been rather lack luster. 34 Players attended with 6 rounds of Magic and a cut to top 8. I'll give some some interesting scenarios that may have happened in games, but I'm not really doing a tournament report. My rounds went as follows:
Round 1: Shardless BUG (2-0)
1-0
Round 2: Maverick (2-0)
Notes: In game 1 I believe he casts a GSZ into a Gaddock Teeg in order to cut me off from Dread Return. However, we later agreed that was a mistake as his line clearly should have been Scavenging Ooze. His wrong choice allowed me to churn out extra zombies via Ichorid which allowed me to take over the game.
2-0
Round 3: Team America (2-1)
Notes: Game 2 he was able to get two DRS online which made it difficult for me to get any engine going. I was able to drop a needle on both of them, however, he simply Abrupt Decaye'd the Needle and went about his business. Game 3 went to time, however, I was able to generate enough power on board to swing in for lethal damage on my turn 3 iirc.
3-0
Round 4: Sneak & Show (2-1)
Notes: Game 1 He S&Ts a Griselbrand into play and I therapy his hand on my turn revealing Lotus Petal, Emrakul, Intuition, Misdirection. Normally I would take the Emrakul. The thing was I had my DR in the yard with a Golgari Grave Troll that would have been larger than the Emmy. Even if he gets the Show and Tell It would be too slow as I would come in with a cluster of zombies and a giant troll, however, his misdirection needed to go for that to be viable. I take his misdirection (to his surprise) and I attempt to DR the Troll. He pays 7 off Grisel in response and my DR meets a FOW. On his turn he drops a Sneak attack and the Emmy to wreck me. In hindsight I might have taken the Emmy idk. Lol.
Game 3: He drops a Graffdigger's Cage which effectively shuts me down (I didn't bother to board in the Ingot Chewer). At this point I had gone through a few turns of dredging. After he drops the Cage we play draw go for what seems like 5 turns as he had the hate, but lacked lands hehe. Eventually I draw a 2nd land and start to drop creatures (my only real out is playing ground dorks and hoping not to die to a lethal attack while getting annihilated and generating a ton of zombies off my bridges to swing back with). What actually ends up happening is he Show and Tells (a mistake we later discussed) and he drops a Griselbrand while I drop my GGT as a 10/10!! Eventually my giant GGT gets there as he is unable to follow up his play. We all had a nice laugh about it after the fact.
4-0
Round 5: Esperblade (1-2)
Notes: Scooped to a bud so that he could place top 8. I was the only undefeated which meant I was paired down as he was sitting at 2-0-1 at this point.
4-1
Round 6: ??? ID
4-1-1
We all split the $340 store credit as it was getting late and there wouldn't have been much more gain if one came in 3-4th place anyway (only a 3 dollar differential).
good job vs sneak show. they always are memorable"
thank you for sharing.
ive never played vs shardless yet. it was educational to read your experiences.
since dredge games are typically shorter its easier to summarize and highlite game changers"
one of the fun aspects of our game moments of coincidence or luck or divine intervention. but nothing beats outplaying your opponent on skill turning a game around and bluffing ect...
ive played unmask a few times and feel good about it.
each time i drew a hand with her in it I felt good. i didnt mind tossing a black card as long as I had a cabal therapy or cantrip to follow. could even cast putrid same turn 1 discard a therapy in hand to remove his plans for turn 1-2 ....there were moments where i thought of targeting a land ....never did.....i would if the fella only had one tho.."hahaha......oh god this deck is sooooo fun. its magic crack, i dont want to play anything else!
I don't think that works ;)
... yeah fairly certain unmask doesn't hit lands... i'd read that card again before you try doing that ...
after a lot of testing this will be the list i will be running tonight at my local tonight. I'll keep everyone informed in how it goes, so far I have to say i have been quite impressed with this list and think i will make it my stock configuration.
creatures
4 grave troll
4 stinkweed
3 thug
4 narco
3 ichorid
3 putrid imp
2 street wraith
1 flayer of the hatebound
Business
4 bridge from below
4 led
4 cabal therapy
4 careful study
3 faithless looting
2 breakthrough
2 dread return
Lands
4 city of brass
4 gemstone mine
4 cephalid coliseum
1 tarnished citadel
sideboard
2 nether shadow
2 ancient grudge
1 iona
1 elesh norn
3 wispmare
2 ingot chewer
1 breakthrough
2 firestorm
I will say one of the things that Dredge has to its benefit is the "weird" interactions and the surpuflous amount of fringe cards that when coupled together make your opponent a bit uneasy. Its blatantly obvious how little legacy players
actually playtest against Dredge (Who really wants to sit through that right?) as I see some of the same mistakes being repeated over and again. With that being said, I do not rely on this little notion to help me win games (though it does happen) and you have to actually play out your games with your whole gameplan revealed. What people don't seem to get is that they're actually playing with a copy of Telepathy on their side of the board and yet they still can't at times figure out my upcoming line of play. Its all layed out for you to see!
oof* ya its nonland card....i was dreaming wrote that...
for sure
dredge just needs more well experienced play time. practice vs hate with sideboards . 50℅of the games are played this way. i
we have advantage of more unstoppable options than they have...then surprise cabal therapy yourself for 1-2 trolls/imps or dredgers . they may not counter since no immediate damage is being done. quickly pass turn, typically they submit to the trained response, thus un-up-draw.,end their turn casting study or looting then dredge your turn and play another spell. this type of patient gameplay will pay off when you start explaining all the triggers and he sees therapies picking his hand apart , then his face melts and says "whatever" and scoops....when done correctly its art.
took my list 3-1 tonight losing in the final round tonight at my local, i'll leave my matches up for the night and i'll write more detail about them tommorow after i get some sleep and get out of work.
round 1 vs Omnitell 2-0
round 2 vs Miracles 2-1
round 3 vs UWR delver 2-1
round 4 vs deathblade 1-2
Long time Manaless player here new LED player. I just go my LED's over the last couple weeks and I am trying to "tap" into LED Dredge now. Has anyone played around with Entomb in the deck since Faithless Looting was printed? I did a little digging and found some lists from a while ago that had Entomb in them, but nothing in the last few years. Would it be viable to use Entomb less for Dreaded Return and more to fetch from your deck like a toolbox? Instant speed Troll into your grave, or find Faithless Looting and still have a LED waiting. Quick Narcomeba for a chump blocker to take advantage of Bridges, or just find a bridge. Even pull out your Therapys. In games 2 and 3 they can get even better with Ray, Grudge and Darkblast.
Thought anyone?
It'd be viable in the sense that Dredge is a broken deck in game one regardless of whatever you choose to play, the real question is what do you cut for it in the MD and would you still want to play with it post-board when you SB out LED.
The deck as whole is redundant... it does what it does so well that entomb is honestly just inferior. For one mana entomb can go get one card (albeit at instant speed) and put it in your graveyard. For one mana faithless looting, careful study, breakthough and putrid imp all at least can put between 2-x cards into your graveyard. Entomb also doesn't facilitate the dredge mechanic, where as careful study, breakthrough, and faithless looting do. Dredge is first and foremost a combo deck, going off requires putting as many cards in your graveyard as possible. Entomb works better when your trying to find certain pieces like in reanimator or the new jund depths deck that's been floating around... however when it comes to our deck it's not as simple as finding just one card. One cabal therapy, however powerful the card is, is not enough to beat an opponent, one narcomoeba isnt enough to expand your board presence... it is the combination of therapies, moeba's, ichorids, and bridge from belows that produce an overwhelming board advantage after having milled yourself some twenty to forty cards deep. Entomb in dredge is cute, but honestly not on par with the busted things it's capable of doing now anyway.
Cantrips are just better, i think would be the main point im trying to get at. While entomb can go find you a dredger, a moeba, a bridge, a therapy or w.e... it can't facilitate a "dredge" which is a huge downfall.
Hey guys. I don't know if you have noticed this (http://mythicspoiler.com/bng/cards/s...labyrinth.html), but when today I first saw it, I totally got mindblown. It's no secret that Mark Rosewater hates combo, and it seems that many decks abusing of card drawing (DREDGE, SnT, storm, etc.) will get pretty screwed by this new bitch, as well as the occasional brainstorm cantrips of BUG, RUG and the like. Is a revolution going to happen soon in our dredge decks, and more general in the legacy metagame? At least in my area, combo is going quite strong but Death&Taxes and maverick are becoming extremely popular, and facing this new hatebear could prove a real pain in the ass and eventually change the face of the metagame.
Some pages above there was a discussion about maindecking firestorm as an alternative to LED in creature-heavy metagames. Do you believe that this new card is such a threat that it will require to start thinking about going back to LEDless and include in maindeck reactive cards (such as firestorm and darkblast) in order to handle it?
I already noted this in the [SCD] thread, but as ddredge is a replacement effect, you may ignore the cat and just dredge. So of all the blue decks, Dredge is leess hurt, unless my knowledge of rules is as bad as the decks I play...
yes at first glance
I dunno we'll have to see if it catches on. It's a "dead" card that belongs in a sideboard or fetchable maindeck card ...maybe enchantress decks but that's prolly it. plus unless its removed from play, it also hinders the owners options to draw extra cards
plus when considering how many decks don't have an answer for this.
It will be dealt with just as thalia, drs, ooze....bounce->discard or destroy enchant, ..1 damage....it seems fairly weak. i
dont think we'll see much of it.
The new enchantment creature is nothing to fear as dredge is a replacement mechanic. The only way it affects us is if we need to draw cards, if you have dredgers in the yard u can replace your draw effect with a dredge. And even if you don't have dredgers in your yard you can still discard your dredgers off of looting and careful study. People will be woefully mistaken if they think this is good against us
I'm not sure if this conversation already happened in that other thread, but you have to think about that a little bit. According to a few judges I asked, you can dredge as much as you want so long you never draw a card that turn. For example, suppose you need a land to play Careful Study or something. If you take your draw step, and draw the land you need, you can't use Careful Study because she will not allow that draw to happen, and thus cannot be replaced by the dredge effect. However, so long as you don't ever actually draw a card, you can dredge as much as you want.
Ok guys, thanks for the explanation. So it seems that Pimp and LED will be even more important in order to dump dredgers in the yard!
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