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Thread: [Deck] Dredge

  1. #41
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    Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by K1w1 View Post
    Please give me your results for BoM.
    unfortunately i can't go to it, due to the date. Writing my final examination (21.5 - 25.5)
    It isn't easy to travel from France to Germany at sunday night and write the examination.
    @Sedris: I don't think it has much to do with consistency. Moreover, you just don't need them. And what is consistent with LED in Dredge? Hmm, i sacrificed my LED : "ok, crypt! Remove it pls"
    But you're right by saying that you will have more studies in your hand. (or breakthrough)

    K1w1
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  2. #42
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    Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge

    Thanks for the update, Hollywood. I just read through it and am looking forward to the more in-depth material.

    One typo you could fix if you wanted. Golgari Thug is misspelled in the non-LED build listed. Also, you could add Iona, Terastadon, and Stalking Vengeance to the list of DR-targets.

  3. #43

    Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk View Post
    Also, you could add Iona, Terastadon, and Stalking Vengeance to the list of DR-targets.
    Sadistic Hypnotist and Realm Razer might also be worth mentioning.

    Cheers,
    jares

  4. #44
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    Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by jares View Post
    I might be mistaken, but I think that the lists that are usually being noted in primers are the ones that have achieved significant success, if any. I'm unsure of whether or not the quadlazer list fits that description (it probably does).

    The occasional use of Darkslick Shores and its repercussions might also be worth mentioning somewhere.

    Cheers,
    jares
    I would not run the German list just because of the lack of dread return. However, the Quadlaser list is the standard dredge deck over there. For that fact alone it should be at least mentioned. It is also an interesting take on the new faithless looting, a new and different perspective. This helps new dredge players(and old).

    As Darkslick Shores goes, I used it in my LED list a year ago and won first/second place in a GP trial. Faithless looting has made the black/blue dredge lists obsolete.

  5. #45
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    Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge

    We didn't even have a trial near us yet...
    Liar :P.

    Out of curiosity: How many of you guys have experience with Vintage Dredge ( as I currently need some help with it)?
    If someone is familiar with it and would be willing to share some tipps with me please send me a PN ( as I don't want to mess this fresh thread up so soon).

    Thanks in advance.

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  6. #46
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    Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by Felidae View Post
    Liar :P.

    Out of curiosity: How many of you guys have experience with Vintage Dredge ( as I currently need some help with it)?
    If someone is familiar with it and would be willing to share some tipps with me please send me a PN ( as I don't want to mess this fresh thread up so soon).

    Thanks in advance.

    Felidae_
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  7. #47

    Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by joemauer View Post
    As Darkslick Shores goes, I used it in my LED list a year ago and won first/second place in a GP trial. Faithless looting has made the black/blue dredge lists obsolete.
    Also, the emergence of a plethora of non-blue/non-black sideboard options has increased the importance of having access to gold lands. Maybe even Tireless Tribe might have a say regarding the use of Darkslick Shores.

    Cheers,
    jares

  8. #48

    Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge

    Primer has been updated a bit with a few suggestions. I'll work on it some more later.

  9. #49
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    Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge

    Hm did I miss one? Well I'll be attenting Saturday in DDorf thanks to Necro:)
    If I don't scrub out horribly expect a report.
    The last tourney in Bottrop was also a trial for BoM. Anyway good luck for saturday :D.
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  10. #50
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    Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by jares View Post
    Also, the emergence of a plethora of non-blue/non-black sideboard options has increased the importance of having access to gold lands. Maybe even Tireless Tribe might have a say regarding the use of Darkslick Shores.

    Cheers,
    jares
    Faithless Looting is the only reason I run rainbow lands in my LED list.

    Tireless Tribe has never been a staple in LED dredge.

    As the sideboard goes, chain of vapor is the only card I feel is must have card(for LED builds).

  11. #51

    Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge

    So as I’ve mentioned several times already, I haven’t been able to find a LED build that I liked over traditional LEDless up to now, even after Lootings. Compiling lists of advantages and disadvantages is one option to find one’s preferred version, but in the end, those lists had several more or less marginal points on LEDless’ side and actually 1 huge point on the LED side. The LED advantage is obviously raw speed, which includes all different kinds of aspects like racing Combo, racing Hate and so on and so forth. The LEDless side contained the following:

    - More main board space (for DR, etc) and more sb space (no need for gold lands in the board)
    - Better at playing around artifact-based hate

    I deliberately excluded all kinds of consistency issues and mulligans, because there is no proof that either list is better than the other at this.

    The points on the LEDless side of my list are pretty much obvious and definite, but the ‘Faster’ argument of LED is actually a bit problematic to evaluate. And that’s what I tried to do. I wanted to test the speed of both lists against each other. I figured that the only way to do this reliably was to goldfish both lists a certain number of times and writing down everything that’s relevant. That way I would be able to compare the average speed and consistency of both builds. Interaction by your opponent and post board games don’t change anything about those two main factors, so simply goldfishing should provide valid empirical results.

    I did 50 test runs with each list, 25 on the Play and 25 on the Draw. The things I focused at were:
    - Mulligans
    - Average number of Cabal Therapies that I had access to until turn X
    - The actual kill turn (attacking my opponent’s life points for at least 20 damage total, assuming no blockers)

    The two lists that I tested are the LED list that I personally consider to be the best right now (German Quad list) as well as my own LEDless lists that looks like this:

    4 City of Brass, 4 Gemstone Mine, 4 Cephalid Coliseum, 3 Tarnished Citadel
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll, 4 Stinkweed Imp, 3 Golgari Thug
    4 Careful Study, 4 Breakthrough, 3 Faithless Looting
    4 Putrid Imp, 3 Tireless Tribe
    4 Bridge From Below, 4 Narcomoeba, 4 Cabal Therapy, 3 Ichorid, 1 Dread Return



    Here are the results:

    I’ll always give the LED number plus the LEDless number directly afterwards and in (brackets): I promise you’ll be just as surprised as I was…


    Mulligans:

    Keep at 7: 33/50 = 66% (37/50 = 74%)
    Keep at 6: 8/50 = 16% (10/50 = 20%)
    Keep at 5: 5/50 = 10% (3/50 = 6%)
    Keep at 4: 2/50 = 4% (0/50 = 0%)
    Keep at 3: 1/50 = 2% (0/50 = 0%)
    Keep at 2: 1/50 = 2% (0/50 = 0%)

    Percentage hands mulliganed: 39,7% (24%)


    Average number of Cabal Therapies that I had access to until turn X:

    I didn’t count those that I got access to the very turn I attacked for lethal anyway and I also didn't count the games that were over already. So for instance, if I had access to 2 CT on turn 2 and killed turn three, the 2 CTs won’t be included in the Turn 3+ numbers.

    Turn 1: 0,46 (0,06)
    Turn 2: 1,56 (1,76)
    Turn 3: 1,97 (2,56)
    Turn 4: 2,36 (3,0)
    Turn 5: 2,17 (4,5)


    The actual Kill turn:

    Turn 1 kill: Impossible for both variants
    Turn 2 Kill: 0% of games in LED, impossible for LEDless
    Turn 3 kill: 36% (32%)
    Turn 4 kill: 36% (50%)
    Turn 5 kill: 16% (14%)
    Turn 6+: 12% (4%)

    Average kill turn: 4,04 (3,9)



    I’ve calculated it three times, because I was sure these numbers could never be correct, but there’s no error in it. You might argument that I’m not playing perfectly or took the wrong milligan decisions, but those are both things that would have to apply to my playing both lists, so even if that’s an argument, it should even out. Also, what do you do if you draw zero lands at 7,6 and 5, have Double-Narco, Bridge, GGT at 4 and Narco, Bridge, Ichorid at 3?


    I can’t explain why LED was so much worse in this testing, other than that it’s simply the way the games went. I tried my best in every game and I’ve done 50 games, which is a pretty big number already. If I have time, I might test some more, but right now I’m not sure if it’s even necessary. I expected LED to be at least 0.5 turn faster and I also thought that it would have access to more Therapies faster. If these numbers are anywhere near the actual truth, I can’t see any argument to run LED at all, which is somewhat unexpected.


    If I did any fundamental errors or if any of my observations aren’t representative or if I’m missing anything important, please tell me. As I said, I don't want to convince anyone of anything, this is just some testing I did for myself and I thought it might be interesting to some of you.


    Cheers

  12. #52
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    Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge

    @Izor: the Quad list may be the wrong one, I would try again with Hollywood's latest list.

    Also, one thing you could not find out from goldfishing is disruption from the other side. LED lists are generally better at fighting through a counterwall.

  13. #53
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    Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by Izor View Post
    I’ve calculated it three times, because I was sure these numbers could never be correct, but there’s no error in it. You might argument that I’m not playing perfectly or took the wrong milligan decisions, but those are both things that would have to apply to my playing both lists, so even if that’s an argument, it should even out. Also, what do you do if you draw zero lands at 7,6 and 5, have Double-Narco, Bridge, GGT at 4 and Narco, Bridge, Ichorid at 3?

    Drawing zero lands on your first 7 may not be that bad, if your on the draw and have a decent hand to play DDD.
    Also goldfished 50 times with each version, which does not even remotely allow you to make any statistical statement. (I'm way to annoyed with statistics and error theory right now to do the actual math)

  14. #54
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    Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge

    @Hollywood: Thanks for your feedback. But as you said, maybe it's just better to just ignore your enemy's swarm and rush them out.

    @Izor: Thank you very much, you've done and excellent work with the play tests and the statistics. Actually, it's kinda expected that Quadlaser Dredge it's not THAT faster than LEDless (they don't use any targets, and reduce the land count, which can be a problem sometimes), at least this is my point of view. The real vantage (I believe) in Quadlaser, is the fact that you can get more consistently abuse your draw spells.
    I believe if you could compare a combo-oriented LED build to a LEDless version, the analysis would be more solid.
    The main problem from LEDless, is the trouble to fight Maverick, I wonder if Firestorm would fit better in TTribe's slots in you build. Here in Brazil, Merfolk is still a very common deck, so Firestorm would fit like a glove.
    Also, 11 dredgers are usually enough? I play 13 in my LEDless, because sometimes I don't feel comfortable with 12 =O

  15. #55

    Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge

    Quote Originally Posted by joemauer View Post
    @Izor: the Quad list may be the wrong one, I would try again with Hollywood's latest list.

    Also, one thing you could not find out from goldfishing is disruption from the other side. LED lists are generally better at fighting through a counterwall.
    Actually, after doing those test runs I think it might be better to play a DR package in LED Dredge, so I agree there.

    However, why does LED fight countermagic better? Just because they could find their counter spell with a turn 1 cantrip? Or because it can't be Dazed as easily? Those are fringe cases at most. There are lots of such corner cases where the one or the other list is better. For example, LED lists are screwed hard if their Breakthrough is countered with LED on the stack. LEDless doesn't care that much about it. I tested raw speed and consistency only and deliberately excluded all kinds of external factors. Factoring in those as well is impossible.

    Quote Originally Posted by jjjoness' View Post
    Drawing zero lands on your first 7 may not be that bad, if your on the draw and have a decent hand to play DDD.
    Also goldfished 50 times with each version, which does not even remotely allow you to make any statistical statement. (I'm way to annoyed with statistics and error theory right now to do the actual math)
    You never ever keep a 7 card hand without Lands with LED Dredge. Never. At 6 and 5 it's no different. I think going down to 2 in this example is what would have heppened to everyone.
    In this case, goldfishing is (maybe the only) method to collect empirical data. Many scientific fields are solely based on empirical studies, so it is definitely a viable strategy to make statistical statements. Actual maths isn't everything when it comes to playing Magic. I can calculate the exact probabilities for each list to have a god opening hand, but what would that prove?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojeh View Post
    @Izor: Thank you very much, you've done and excellent work with the play tests and the statistics. Actually, it's kinda expected that Quadlaser Dredge it's not THAT faster than LEDless (they don't use any targets, and reduce the land count, which can be a problem sometimes), at least this is my point of view. The real vantage (I believe) in Quadlaser, is the fact that you can get more consistently abuse your draw spells.
    I believe if you could compare a combo-oriented LED build to a LEDless version, the analysis would be more solid.
    The main problem from LEDless, is the trouble to fight Maverick, I wonder if Firestorm would fit better in TTribe's slots in you build. Here in Brazil, Merfolk is still a very common deck, so Firestorm would fit like a glove.
    Also, 11 dredgers are usually enough? I play 13 in my LEDless, because sometimes I don't feel comfortable with 12 =O
    Thanks for the feedback.

    I had put a lot of thought into what lists I would be testing against each other. I figured that the lists should be as similar as possible (aside from the LED package of course) in order to get a reliable comparison. I could have tested Hollywood's build, but then I think I should play a DR package in LEDless as well. If LEDless is really as fast as LED at casting Therapies and killing my opponent, then it is also just as fast at casting DR.

    Firestorm is fine in the main if your metagame demands it. I know how good it is and I always keep 3-4 in my SB for certain matchups. It's just that I really really hate them pre board in combo matchups, so I like to go with the 'allrounder' card, which is imo Tireless Tribe.

    I can certainly see arguments for more than 11 dredgers. In LED Dredge I'd never play less than 12. Having access to permanent discard dorks actually makes you less dependent on hitting more Dredgers after the first Dredge, which is why I'm fine with 11 in a list that runs 7-8 discard dorks. If you run Firestorm, you once again have more one-shot discard and less permanent discard outlets, which makes 12 dredgers a very good idea indeed.

  16. #56
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    Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge

    @Izor: Well, LEDless being just as fast as Quadlaser, doesn't mean DR-LEDless can be as fast as combo-LED. Your data states that LED Dredge can flip the deck faster (although does not necessary wins first), so it can find DR package earlier, and therefore, reanimate a FKZ/Flayer earlier.
    I strongly believe it makes no sense playing LED, if your goal is not to be faster. LEDless seems still much more resilient.

    I agree with the addition of the 12th dredger when playing Firestorm over TTribe, but what do I cut? I wouldn't cut DR without the whole playlet of Ichorid... maybe -1 Breakthrough?

  17. #57

    Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge

    Hm, you might be right. I haven't played DR plus targets for a while and I don't think I will in the near future. In my testing, I surprisingly found out that LEDless finds its Cabal Therapies at least as fast as LED outside of turn 1, that's why I thought it would be similar with DR.

    Do you play Faithless Looting in your LEDless? If you do, those are probably the first cards to cut. If I was to play Firestorms main, I would probably go -2 Looting, -2 Tribe, +3 Firestorm, +1 Darkblast with the list I tested with, the 4th Firestorm in the sideboard. 1 Looting and 1 Tribe seems odd, but I like to keep a balanced number of combo pieces in my lists, that's why.

  18. #58
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    Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge

    I used to play Firestorms main, but recently I chose to play Faithless Looting over them. Not certain if that's the right call, though.

    I play the following.

    15 lands (3 Tarnished)
    13 Dredgers (1 Darkblast)
    4 everything, no DR.

    I liked your LEDless, I just wish I could replace Tribes for Firestorms, and fit the 12th dredger.
    Maybe I'll just cut a Breakthrough for a Darkblast.

  19. #59
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    Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge

    LED dredge is better at fighting through a counterwall than LEDless.

    Game one, your opponent will almost never counter LED. Countering the first draw spell or pimp is fairly common. So if you plan on going all in and your breakthrough gets FoW'd you still get your dredger(s) in your graveyard and your opponent will be down two cards.
    If you have LED + faithless looting your opponent will have to counter Faithless Looting twice to set you back.
    If you have LED + Pimp, your opponent typically can't counter both on your first turn.
    In LEDless your opponent can FoW your first spell and then Daze your second one.
    Also, if you have LED + Cephalid Coliseum typically only stifle can stop you.

    LED gets to play more discard outlets in one turn. Making counterwalls less effective.

    Daze in general is a worst card against the card Lion's Eye Diamond.


    I tried naming all the common stuff that you could run into on the play and not the draw because both decks will just DDD until the coast is cleared with Cabal Therapies. I suspect LED is better against counter magic on the draw too though.

  20. #60

    Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge

    LED is just insane in Dredge. I had an opponent Force my LED in round nine, game one, but dropped a second one and went balls-crazy with Breakthrough into Looting. LED creates confusion with opponents because they don't know what your intentions are with it immediately. It's very discombobulating when you play it, because they don't know if you have a draw spell with it. Either way, it blows the game wide open no matter what they have.

    That's the kind of dynamic the card adds to the archetype. It's incredible.

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