Blood moon?Originally Posted by coff33bit
I dunno, I run geths because I feel in love with it in modern.
Once I saw Sam Black's list, plus ScavengingBooze with the 11th place + 5-0 I decided to sleeve this deck up. This is the most fun deck I've played in a while. Turn 2ing a Gurmag with a cabal therapy in the mix is awesome. Stitcher's supplier is the truth.
I 100% agreed, it seems like I have been cutting it in 90% of the matches I've played.
A couple questions/comments to add to the discussion.
-Why enlightened tutor/entomb/etc? Can't this deck just play two maindeck diabolic intents over the bitterblossoms. It allows you to diversify your SB and the sacrifice a creature isn't really a drawback. It allows you to get any card to hand.
- Perish? I believe elves is on the downturn and it only hits 2/3rd of Temurs creatures (assuming you can get it to resolve). This card seems very narrow.
I played Zombardment for another weekly today and it went quite poorly this time... I played a 4 Feeder list with 2 Gurmags and 3 Pushes.
R1 0-2 Red Stompy
I get T1 Mooned and lose. G2 I mull to 6 for a 1 lander with Wear//Tear but I get beat down by 2 creatures for 5 turns never finding a 2nd Land
R2 0-2 Maverick
G1 I manage to get him to 1 life but I can't stop Marrit Lage. G2 is more of the same. T1 Mom into KotR/Thalia/Wasteland both games gave me headaches. I got severely mana short G2 as well.
R3 2-0 UB Landstill
Just an east matchup overall since he is playing mostly pushes and edicts... G2 I get my Souls and Crawlers extracted but 3 Ghasts and a Bombardment get there.
R4 2-0 Soldier Stompy
I Thoughtseizes away Suppression Field G1 and he folded to Bombardment. G2 is more of the same.
Props:
-Gurmag Angler did a lot of work.
-Wear // Tear costing 1 mana for enchantment removal and 2 mana for artifacts. Fuse is also amazing.
-Lingering Soul and Bombardment against Lifelink flyers.
-Deck is so much fun!
Slops:
-I saw multiple Feeders (2-3 copies) in about half of my matches and the multiple copies were complete garbage.
-I am too often digging for lands with Looting and it often doesn't deliver. I'd rather have more lands than not enough. I will definitely add a 12th fetch.
-Etutor sideboard was too clunky. I did ETutor for a Bombardment but I never felt like I wanted to modify the mainboard much throughout the matches.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
I can't really comment on Entomb or Blossom mainboard because I really believe the deck is famished for removal. Etutor however is a great way to double up on key hate cards. Cards like Tormod's Crypt and Seal of Cleansing as Surgical#3 and Wear#3 benefit from a 4th timely copy in the form of ETutor. Tutor is also a 4th Bombardment for the matchups that it hoses. The problems I've been running into with Tutor are when you get your silver bullet milled. Another problem is with the slow nature of ETutor. Paired with the high CMC of some silver bullets, the etutor package can sometimes be too slow, here are some examples:
-Tutor for Seal of Cleansing takes 2 turns and 3 mana to answer a Moon or Chalice
-Tutor for any 3Drop (Bridge, Plague, Moon) takes 4 mana and 2 turns and is too slow
-Tutor for Blossom is so bad against control decks and will take too many turns to generate too little and incur card
-Jitte is redundant with Bombardment and pretty mana intensive
Here are the cards that really shine with Etutor:
-Ethersworn Canonist
-Tidehollow Sculler
-Tormod's Crypt
-Pithing Needle
-Alpine Moon
-Goblin Bombardment
If your sideboard would benefit from a virtual copy of any of these cards I highly recommend ETutor.
Perish is seeing a resurgence because of the re-emergence of RUG Delver. It does not only wipe Elves but it wipes Mongoose + Goyf and will provide a strong enough answer against the KotR decks that become successful in a RUG meta.
On an unrelated note, I think the deck would greatly benefit from Decays mainboard. There are plenty of cards G1 that necessitate an answer (Chalice, Jitte, Ooze). Decay is the perfect mainboard removal for this deck and is easily splashed.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
I think I'd rather try Abrade before decay -- and then in that case I'd like to swap Wear/Tear with something like Serenity
Hi Guys!
Ok I'm really happy that somebody started to test this amazing deck. I play Magic since 2001 plying all the formats, and this is one of the funniest deck in the history of magic, and has chances to place some really good results because it could be even competitive.
I don0t play online, I'm an "old school" player, and I prefer tournaments in rea life. it's more or less one and a half year that I'm testing this deck and that I'm bringing in in big event here in Italy (all the 100+ players tournament in my land),
I tested many versions and many card and this is the list that I'm actually playing:
Creature
4 Gravecrawler
4 Bloodghast
3 Cryptbreaker
Enchantment
1 Bridge from Below
3 Goblin Bombardment
Instant
3 Entomb
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Darkblast
2 Fatal Push
1 Lightning Bolt
Land
4 Badlands
3 Scrubland
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Undiscovered Paradise
3 Swamp
2 Marsh Flats
1 Mutavault
Planeswalker
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Liliana of the Veil
Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
3 Lingering Souls
3 Hymn to Tourach
Sideboard
1 Damping Sphere
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Null Rod
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Engineered Plague
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Wear // Tear
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Zealous Persecution
The problem of the new Stitcher's list is that is a list that can't substain a grindy game and that can simply concede to a turn 1 Chalice of The Void.
The list that I posted above is really good in grindy MU.
The first thing that you will notice is the totally absence of Carrion Feeder. I swapped them with 3 Cryptbreaker, this card is just insane. Cryptbreaker provides a discard outlet, a monstrous advantage in terms of field and resources (Take in accout that if you discard a bloodghast/Crawler/Lingering with it, you get a big big value from that play), and it provides card advantage in grindy games. It coul not be a dead draw as carrion feeder would be.
I dropped the "explosive factor" of the deck for a more grindy shell.
As Qweerios said: We need removal MD. That's why I choose to insert in the list Darkblast, 2 Fatal Push and 1 Lightning bolt:
- Darkblast is tutorable with Entomb and she can helps in MU like Death and taxes, Infect, Elves and Goblins
- Fatal Push: Is the best answer to Tarmogoyf and Delver that we can run, he can deals wih Kinght of The Reliquary and all the tribal decks in the format
- Lightning bolt: I run 1 bolt intead than 1 push because it's the most versatile removal ever (he can deals with delver and all the mos annoying x/3 creatures of the format), and too many time I lost my game with the opponent at 3 or < life. So this is a bonus slot that when topdecked can helps you to close a game that you would have lost with a Fatal push's topdeck.
Disruption:
Cabal Therapy doesn't need any explanation, but I prefer Hymn To Tourach Over Thoughtseize. Seize is good because you can let your opponent discard that the card that most is annoying you, but is not the play that you want to do on turn 1, rather is the worst one. Hymn To Tourach is one of the best card in the format, it doesn't suffer a cchalice on turn one and make advantage, yes, tourach is a 2x1, this is the lack of deck: advantage. And touracj is one of the best card that we have vs combo deck or versus Eldrazi and MUD deck.
Advantage is the reason that bring me to play more "grindy Card" as Kolaghan's command and the Lilianas, both Of the veil and Last hope.
Kolaghans command is a 1 of that can deals with little creatures, be a follow-up to our disruption plan, hel us to recoup a Cryptbreaker or a Gravecrawler, and THE answer to Chalice, Jitte and Batterskull in our Game 1.
Liliana of the Veil helps us in all the plans of the deck (she is good even vs combo) and is the removal that we need vs TNN or Big Creatures and mongoose.
Liliana, the last hope is Just MVP in Bad MU like Elves and she helps a lot vs Death and taxes and control decks and a good "mill" engine whne we need to dig the deck for a souls or a Bloodghast or whatever.
The rest of the deck does not need explanations. I prefer the Entomb package instead than the Stithcer strategy because I Prefer to tutor card. I'm a Survival/Maverick/Elves player so I ever played with tutors I can not simply a deck without any tutor, that's not magic for me. I need some 1x bullet that resolves the game or that helps you to build you strategy (tutorin a Loothing/Bloodghast/souls/therapy at the right moment just allow you to win the game), and you can even tutor for a win condition like Bridge From Below.
I run 20 lands because I have many Cc3 drops. The 20th land is a Mutavault, she helps you in grindy MU, "actives" all the Gravecrawlers in the GY, is the 12 creature of the deck.
BIg Exclusion
- Smuggler's Copter (it does not anything alone and I run a low number of creatures, is just too slow and does not resolves bad situation like other cards)
- Carrion feeder (I already explained the reason of the wap with Cryptbreaker)
- Grim Lavamancer (now wit the ban of shaman loose a lot of his use)
- Collective Brutality (too many dazes pierrce now, she risks to be a 2x1 for the opponent too often)
- Scourge Of Nel Toth (win more or totally useless when you are fa behind. It sucks vs Jace or Plowshares decks)
- Phyrexian Tower (Useless without Urborg Jutice)
- Purphoros, God Of The Forge (one of my favourites card for the deck,a good plan B vs rip/Leyline, but i have to admit that is too slow and when you cst it is a timewalk for your opponent)
- Urborg Justice (really powerful cards but it works only combined with other cards and this aspect just force me to drop this awesome card)
- Humility (now is too slow but it would still be awesome vs Eldrazi)
- Chains Of Mefistospheles ( I just don't have the money now to invest in it, but it will be one of my SB card once that I will decide to invest money in it, she avoid brainstorm that is our Best enemy ever. Expecially when both we and our opponents are at the topdeck)
Sideboard:
I love the Elightened tutor toolbox. Ensaring Bridge MV vs Show and tell, Canadian and Eldrazi/reanimate. Seal Of cleasing is a tutorabl slot vs artifact and ench.
Damping sphere is a really good card. I would like to play 2 of them, maybe cutting 1 ethersworn canonist, because is insane both vs Eldrazi/MUD and Combo decks.
1 Plague is a good slot to tutor vs tribal deck, Miracle (I put it in because of Monastery mentor and it pays, but I still prefer Humility in g2 and g3 vs miracle) and kills one of our worst enemy: TNN
3 surgical as a GY hate. I tested a lot with Tormod's (to avoid chancellor vs reanimate) and Nihil spellbomb, but still Surgical is the best card vs ANT and Lands. 1 Leyline because you got to be lucky in tournaments. 4 surgical are too much but Leyline is still the only card that allow you to win alone MU like Lands or dredge, so I prefer to have a chance to be lucky rather then the fourth redundant slot that you don't really need but that you want to have to be more covered vs GY strategies.
null rod for combo and equip and 2 zealous because are broken vs TNN, elves, Death and taxes, Empty the warrens and allow you to win a turn earlier vs fast deck in general.
What do you think about this list, do you think a "midrange" list could works better than "explosive lists" (I'm talking about tournaments of 8+ turns, not MTGO 5 games tournaments)
Hope to hear your feedbacks soon!
Qweerios is right about E-Tutor, it can be good but its still card disadvantage and getting your 1off answer countered or discarded (even more now with Playset Stitcher!) is very bad. Overall besides graveyard "draws" this deck is a non-cantrip deck so even with 1 Tutor and strong 1off cards its super random to grap the right card. I feel it will quickly back fire on the long run in a deck that already hope for right topdecks.
I am still not sold on the "this deck needs removal maindeck" idea floating around. Sam Black played a 1off Tragic Slip and did well over many large tournaments. Later it was fine to run 2-3 Decays but 4c Mana without Deathrite is super risky even with 10+ fetches. Without a format full of Deathrite you don't need to fear many creatures, cause the new versions (Fish or Dragon) we discuss here are able to block better or ignore bigger dudes or can fight them well enough. Most removal spells are still bad vs Combo or Control Decks and if you only run a few you risk to get them put into your Yard with stitcher's ability.
For me its better to run a good removal suite at side, with bombardment you dominate a lot of creature combats anyway (heck i even shot down a griselbrand after show&tell with a bunch of dead flesh).
Kaono is right about Abrade, its a very good card in a lot of matchups if you need both modes. Delver Decks often run Artifacts like Cage, so be able to kill a Delver or Cage depending on the situation is good. Sadly most decks currently fear graveyard matchups so i am unsure about how many Leylines floating around and answer it with W (Wear//Tear) is really good to. If it comes down to Artifact+Extraction hate, Abrade is clearly a very solid choice to keep in mind.
@ricste88 i find your list super grindy and while the deck can grind good for me it seems better to get a quick and clean Game 1 victory with more action (means more graveyard dependency etc.). Winning the first game and have 1-2 games to answer the hate of your opponent is always a better situation, so i prefere to run a more classic Zombardment list with the new cards like the inventor Sam Black already mentioned.
-------------
For me it comes down to:
20 Lands (10+ fetches, 1 Undiscovered Paradise)
3-4 Carrion Feeder
4 Gravecrawler
4 Bloodghast
4 Stitcher's Supplier
3 Goblin Bombardment
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lingering Souls
3-4 Thoughtseize
which leaves 5-7 flex cards for various ideas:
Entomb, Bridges, Beaters like Scourge or Fish, Removal, Flex cards like Collective Brutality, Planeswalkers etc. so the "Zombardment 2.0" shell is still adjustable
I really like Bridges but currently test +1 Scourge (3 total) and 2 Collective Brutality (never a dead card) main. At my test matches the dragon is very usefull, 6/6 flying that ignores TNN etc. i even trump a reanimate Chancellor of the Annex with it.
For Sideboard this deck has so many options but if you run diabolic edict i would consider Blessed Alliance too - it can be better in a lot of cases.
TEAM MtG Berlin
I've run Cryptbreaker before in legacy, it is for sure at a legacy power level, it does a lot of things, and should be explored for sure like ricste88 says, whether in the grindy or explosive lists. It has a ton of synergies here and all of them are things this deck is in the market for.
Played the deck to a 3-0 finish last night on the community legacy league on MTGO.
4 bloodghast
4 gravecrawler
4 stitcher's supplier
3 carrion feeder
2 gurmag angler
~*~*~*~
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lingering Souls
4 Thoughtseize
3 Fatal Push
3 Goblin Zombardment
*~*~*~*
11 Black Fetchlands
3 Badlands
3 Swamp
2 Scrublands
2 Undiscovered Paradise
*~* Sideboard *~*
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Wear / Tear
2 Sudden Demise
2 Pithing Needle
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Bitterblossom
Matches were:
Round 1: 2-1 Loam Pox. Fatal pushing a Mishra's factory was the play to allow me to get ahead on board.
Round 2: 2-1 Goblins. Sudden Demise allowed for a 4 for 1. That card is GREAT.
Round 3: 2-0 Eldrazi. 2nd game I grew two carrion feeders into 4/4s to close out the game.
Notes:
-I really wanted fatal push because there are cards that just brick wall us: tarmogoyf, KoTR, TKS,etc and cards that are kill on sight: Mom, Lackey, Infecters. I like the versatility of collective brutality but I wanted instant speed interaction.
-Going forward I think 3x scrublands is the magic number. The game I lost to goblins involved blind flipping both scrublands off of a stitcher. Per the norm, I proceeded to draw two copies of lingering souls.
-I played a game against loam pox with 1 swamp in play and tabernacle on the other side. Bloodghast FTW!
-Goblins is a terrifying match. I went from 18 to 5 life out of no where. Then sudden demised their team and won the attrition war.
- Eldrazi was weird, they turn two TKS, saw two Wear/Tear and chaliced on X=2. It was the correct play at the time, but thankfully they never drew a 2nd chalice and I was able to utilize 1 drops to end the game.
- There's an important interaction I ran into. My one opponent played a relic of progenitus. I played a stitcher, milled over three and one of which was a gravecrawler. My next action was to swamp into gravecrawler. You opponent doesn't have an opportunity to respond, as gravecrawler is already on the stack when priority gets passed to them.
This is true. By default (and it's actually enforced in MTGO online, as opposed to real life where people cheat this rule and try to cut you off before you act) active player gets priority after the resolution of any ability.
Offer not valid for multiple gravecrawlers.
This is what I've been playing and really enjoying:
4 Stitcher's Supplier
4 Gravecrawler
4 Bloodghast
3 Cryptbreaker
2 Scourge of Nel Toth
3 Goblin Bombardment
1 Bridge from Below
2 Entomb
1 Darkblast
1 Abrade
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lingering Souls
3 Thoughtseize
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Badlands
3 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Undiscovered Paradise
Sideboard:
2 Pithing Needle
2 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Bitterblossom
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Wear // Tear
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Breakdown and thoughts:
4 Stitcher's Supplier
4 Gravecrawler
4 Bloodghast
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
These seem core and I haven't touched the numbers at all. Interestingly Faithless Looting has seemed the "worst" of all of these mainly because it's so expensive to flashback so if it's not in my hand I rarely have time to play it.
4 Lingering Souls
3 Thoughtseize
3 Goblin Bombardment
On the other end, I pretty much only cast Souls from the GY so love that it gives me something powerful to do on 3 mana (cast a 1-drop, fb souls). 3 Bombardment seems right and lines up with basically wanting to see 1 per game. 2 is too risky to just mill them both. I like Thoughtseize over Hymn still for Therapy reasons and to stay low to the ground. Hymn on the draw feels so bad.
2 Scourge of Nel Toth
3 Cryptbreaker
Scourge was a 3-of, then a 1-of and I think I'm happy with 2. I disagree it's win-more since there are so many ways to cast it. T1 supplier mill ghast, T2 land cast Scourge is crazy strong. Scourge also synergizes with Cryptbreaker as another discard outlet and throwaway creature maker. I think decks playing Scourge should play Cryptbreaker and decks with Angler should play Carrion Feeder.
I tested A LOT with Carrion Feeder and was almost always underwhelmed. Especially since Fatal Push was printed it's not like the old days where you get it out of bolt range and it takes over. Also Cryptbreaker is so much better post sb games vs gy hate compared to Feeder.
2 Entomb
1 Bridge from Below
1 Darkblast
1 Abrade
Just some randoms to fill the gaps. Entomb might be too cute but until the deck is streamlined I enjoy the versatility. Bridge is just good as a random I-win card. Darkblast is great again! Abrade as maindeck out to Chalice and some more spot removal.
The sideboard is still a mess, I have poor justifications for most of it but don't stand behind it at all.
Ok lots of discussion going on and some good reports to boot! Here are a few thoughts, testing results, and theories to share.
First, Thoughtseize is our best T1 play. I used to play 3 when I had 4 Bobs but it quickly became evident that T1 Badlands into TS is the best opening sequence for this deck. TS is our probe and our single best t1 combo interaction. This line of play sets us up perfectly for an explosive T2 be it a Therapy/Looting/Supplier follow-up or simply another TS. I currently see no good reason not to play 4 copies.
Second, Sam Black was realistically the first person to play this deck competitively, and during a completely different time period. He benefitted greatly from the rogue factor. There weren't nearly as many potent and different Chalice decks as today and DnT was nowhere near as threatening. Playing without removal given those circumstances is much for feasible. Here are a few cards in random order that can completely invalidate our deck either immediately or given a couple of turns:
-Elesh Norn, no further development until this card gets off the field
-Scavenging Ooze, gets easily out of Bombardment range and acts as a hard shut down and stabilizer. Highly accessible throuh GSZ
-Goblin Lackey is back! Our creatures can't block so he can take over.
-Any Infect creature that we can't block can quickly take us out outright.
-Delver of Secrets, first and/or second fast copies backed by disruption can easily outpace our entire development.
-Mother of Runes and Thalia, backed by Port/Waste can easily prevent us from playing any cards altogether especially if we are on the draw. First Strike is a wall and these decks generally have access to a threatening equipment package.
-Phyrexian Revoker on Goblin Bombardment takes away most of our steam against aggro decks.
-Knight of the Reliquary, especially on T2 will wall our early beats and the flow of Wastelands/Marrit Lage it will bring is enough to bring our entire deck development to a halt. Also, the card is huge...
-Tarmogoyf and the Eldrazis, as vanilla as they can be they can still outclock our deck of we don't have Souls to chump or some serious machine-gun action going. Gurmag Angler is a huge boon in that department.
-Chalice of the Void is probably our biggest and most common offender and simply shuts down nearly every card in our deck. Without FoW, Daze and Pierce, CotV is a serious consideration. Praying for 1 of 3 Wear G2-3 with the looming threat of a T1 Moon/Chalice/Magus makes red stompy matchups very unfavorable without interaction G1.
-Trinisphere needs to be answere if we want to abuse any sort of synergyy.
-Any Jitte or Batterskull that slipped past discard is now a serious threat.
These are just a few cards that have completely blown me out during testing. I think we need a strong plan against the decks packing these cards and versatile removal.
Third, I have tested 4 Decays with 2 Bayous and unfortunately the 4th color is too much of a stretch. However, Kaono's suggestion of Abrade might be spot on. Abrade mainboard answers many of the threats noted above. The biggest one IMO is the fact that it answers Chalice through Moon and kills nearly every relevant threat for 2 mana. 3 damage is enough to take down a Gurmag/Goyf/Eldrazi that blocked one of our recursive beaters. It can always be thrown at Vials, Moxes and Equipments when necessary as well. I believe 2-3 copies mainboard, given how popular Chalice decks are in your meta, is a good starting point.
Fourth, I slowly realized how black creatures you want to aim removal at are getting pretty scarce. I preffer Snuff Out to Push in many situations. The fact that you can remove nearly any creature in the format for 0 mana is not to be underestimated. Snuff out will take down Elesh Norn, pass through Chalice, kill any non-gurmag fatty, easily slip past Thalia, and get rid of pesky T1 plays without incurring a tempo loss! The obvious downside is the hefty cost in life so you might want to keep your copies to miser 1-2 ofs. I am definitely going to try a 2/2 Abrade/Snuff split!
@Mach00ga,
I play an almost identical list aside from the manabase (3rd Scrub > 3rd Swamp and 12th fetch > 2nd Paradise). I recently cut the 4th Feeder for the 21st Land and I was pondering on a 2nd Paradise. I finally opted against because I find it extremely clunky and I get as much, if not more value out of a fetch instead. Basically I really dislike Paradise in my first 3 lands so I couldn't justify running 2 copies. How were the two copies for you?
About some of your SB choices, I play 2 StP and 2-3 Liliana over your 2 Edicts and 2 Bridges. What is Edict for? Do you use Bridge much outside of Sneak and Eldrazi? I usually find that I get much more value off the back of Liliana. When I packed Bridges I found them pretty narrow whereas Liliana I can bring in so many matchups. I've also tested Plague Mare, Marsh Casualties and Zealous Persecution and figured that ZP was the better card. Where is Sudden Demise better than ZP? I know ZP is great against active Mom boards and against TNN but I am sure there are some 2-3 damage Sudden Demises that can turn the tables. Also, why is everyone packing 2 Needles? What are they for?
My last question is mostly for everyone playing Sculler in their SB. Why Sculler over Duress? I find that Sculler is only good against combo really and the faster interaction takes the cake here.
Cheers!
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
Leyline of Lifeforce. Don't leave home without it, chalice haters.
TEAM MtG Berlin
@MD.Ghost
Thanks for the detailled response. Lots of things to digest here.
Concerning Feeder and Breaker, I wouldn't be so quick to judge as both cards have merrit. They are arguably some of the looser inclusions to the core (as evident by our recent discussions). The slot it occupies is that of a 1 mana zombie that doesn't completely suck. Note that Breaker did not exist when Sam Black piloted the deck. They are both CMC 1 zombies so they fit the bill for Crawler but one is a sac outlet (synergy abuser) and the other is a discard outlet that generates CA (synergy abuser/enabler). While it is true that Feeder protects, say, a Bloodghast from a Plow, it merely redirects it to the Feeder which is likely to be the recipient of the Plow in the first place given that we spend of all of our spare mana in growing him, making Feeder the logical choice regardless of his sidekick. This "protect" effect is more relevant against Terminus than single-target removal. With Supplier as part of the core, having additional cheap sac outlets provide velocity, but not always at high value I might argue (Sac an early Supplier to Feeder and whiff). As a sac outlet, Feeder is outclassed by both Bombardment and Therapy. As a fatty, Gurmag is far more threatening given its immediate size, blocking abilities, and evasive CMC. Another important aspect of Feeder is that multiple copies are highly undesirable.
Now, lets look at Breaker shall we? Breaker is a discard outlet, it requires mana and generate CA. While Feeder is a poor rendering of Bombardment, Breaker is a pretty decent rendering of Faithless Looting (a sort of big loot). Both are undesirable in multiples. Breaker is definitely more defensive and lends itself to a grindier game by turning GY dependant cards from your hand into 2/2 zombies. Breaker provides a stream of blockers and can block itself which can be relevant against Lackey and Glistener Elf. Breaker's draw ability is the cherry on top and is not why I would personally play the card but can become a major effect when sacrificing and replaying Crawlers post-attack step. Personally, I find Feeder to be one of the weaker parts of the deck now that we have access to a critical mass of zombies in the form of Supplier and Angler. I might as well play a 4th Bombardment over the 3rd-4th Feeder now that Feeder's typing matters less than its effect. Looting #5-6 and another lategame grinder in the form of a T1 Breaker is looking more appealing than ever.
Now, looking at your comments on the creatures I highlighted necessitate removal, most of your answers come from your sideboard. The cards I mentionned are all part of some archetypes' main strategy and tend to stop our deck dead in its tracks. You can't just throw away a large portion of your G1 win percentage because you want more synergy over 3-4 cards that can clearly solve these problem cards you are likely to encounter in all of your pre/post-side games. For instance, Chalice@1 is a major problem for this deck and having something like 2 Abrade mainboard will skyrocket your win percentage for G1-3 when coupled with 3 Wear. Throwing away G1 completely to the die roll and a prayer that your opponent doesn't Chalice won't make it a favorable matchup G2-3 because you included 3 Wear. It is simply not enough... Take Infect for example, the pump spells don't kill you like you mentionned, the creatures with Infect are killing you. You kill the creatures, the pump is stranded while discarding the pump doesn't prevent the beats. A removal spell at a low cost in this matchup (Push or Snuff) goes a long way in making sure you get a good shot at G1 and a darn good one at G2. This idea of changing decks when Chalice is common, Lackey and Infect creatures are contenders, and Elesh Norn is a prime reanimation target is not one that I wish to entertain if my goal is to make the best Zombardment deck I possibly can. No amount of potential big Feeders, Gurmags, and flying tokens will trump an active mom protecting the right hatebear, an exploded goblin board sharpshooting your face, an unblockable infecter, a TNN with an equipment, a brutal Delver opener, or a fast Ooze/Elesh/Chalice... Adequate removal spells can!
About Needle... My main issue with Needle is that it is often a great solution to a non-existent problem. Yes it stops Sneak Attack but sometimes they just go Show n Tell. Yes you can stop Thespian Stage from Turbo Depths but they draw a Hexmage. Miracles can't Jace you but they chose to ride the Mentor or some other PW instead. Ooze can't be activated anymore but it's already at 4/4 and that 7/7 KotR is still free to rotate into a Bog. These are all common scenarios that I think require more general pieces of interaction before Needle is considered. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Needle is bad by any means, rather I would play a solid core of widely applicable cards before loading up on Needles.
So I've been obsessing over Zombardment for the past weeks and I have come up with a tight list and a pretty complete SB map that addresses 20 common matchups. Here's where I am at:
2 Carrion Feeder / Cryptbreaker
4 Stitcher's Supplier
4 Gravecrawler
4 Bloodghast
2 Gurmag Angler
2 Snuff Out
2 Abrade
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lingering Souls
3 Goblin Bombardment
1 Undiscovered Paradise
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
3 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Badlands
3 Scrubland
2 Swamp
//SB
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Fatal Push
3 Wear // Tear
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Liliana of the Veil
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
I piloted the list I posted above (Feeder > Breaker) in a monthly Legacy event to a top4 finish. I also did a bunch of fun games on the side and overall got to jam a lot of zombies in play. It was great! Here's a brief report:
R1: UW RiP/Helm Combo-Control, 2-1 (oh the horror!)
G1 I TS my opponent is on the play but he knows what I am on so he Forces my T1 TS and jams a T2 RiP followed by Energy Field... I concede.
G2 my opponent keeps a questionable opener with a Leyline of sanctity and gets punished for it.
G3 is a long match that involves some back and forth removal and a grand total of 3 RiP. I have 3 Wear for all of them but a hardcast Leyline of Sanctity prevents me from going over the top. In the end, Liliana did a lot of work by getting rid of an Energy Field and managed to tick up to 9 (can't ultimate with leyline). She even ate some Bombardment pings when I was presented with a Terminus to put my creatures in the GY and rebuild a board. I was happy to have all 3 Wears for that game as this matchup is truly atrocious.
R2: DnT, 2-1
G1 Abrade gets a Jitte and Bombardment + Ghast and Crawler takes it home
G2 I get beat down by a T4 Mirran Crusader equipped with a SoFaI (ouch!). I try to race him but I can't find a Wear, Abrade, Souls to chump, or Bombardment to seal the deal with Angler, 2 Ghasts and 2 Crawlers. I die in 3 swings after mitigating one attack with a ZP.
G3 I have Push and Abrade ready and manage to take it home with Angler, Crawler, and Bombardment.
R3: Goblins, 2-0
G1 I have 2 Suppliers to chump Lackey and Flashback 3 Souls and 2 Ghasts for the beats while he play Matron and realizes he has no Sharpshooter or Chainwhirler mainboard. Lucky me.
G2 I get my GY nuked by Relic and my Souls get Extracted but Supplier grants me a new GY and Bombardment with 1 Crawler takes his board down.
R4: ID
Top4
Goblins 0-2
G1 I kept a 1 lander with Snuff Out and Looting but I only find a 2nd Land by T4 and can't catch up.
G2 I have a Snuff Out + TS + Therapy opener with Ghast and Bombardment to follow up but I make a critical missplay that allowed him to topdeck back into the game. T1 TS sees 2 Lackeys, Vial, Ringleader, and Lands. I figure I should discard lackey #2, Snuff his Lackey in play, let him Vial, and discard his entire hand. The right line of play was to do exactly that but to Therapy myself on T2 to get 2 Ghasts in the yard, play my fetch for the Ghasts return and Flashback Therapy to take away the Ringleader. Instead I therapy the Ringleader and left the 2 Ghasts in my hand. My opponent then proceeds to topdeck Matron for Krenko and Warchief while I cast Bombardment and die while I try to cast the Ghasts that I should have brought into play for free and would have gunned his goblins down in time.
After the tournament I played some games for fun against a Chalice Tez Combo deck and Bant. Abrade was the MvP in all of these games.
Props:
-Abrade did some heavy lifting. I was really happy to have 5 artifact removal spells against DnT and it really didn't feel like too many at all.
-Snuff Out allowed some really nutty openers where I got to discard my opponent's entire hand or splurge out on the board while also dealing with their early plays. It definitely granted me some massive tempo gains and allowed me to dictate the pace despite all the life loss. To think that I almost replaced them with StP as a last minute tweak...
-Drew nearly no Feeders throughout the entire tournament and I really didn't miss him.
-Lingering Souls doing most of the blocking and reaching
Slops:
-Game losing missplay
-Land shortages
Going forward I think I want to include a 4th Badlands over the 12th Fetch. Having only 3 red sources leaves me susceptible to Supplier milling 1-2 Badlands and being Wasted off red altogether. Other than that I believe the weakest link in the deck is Carrion Feeder.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
Good report, but a little rules tip for future pilots: You declare targets before you pay costs, which means you can target the creature you plan to sacrifice. This would get the creature in the graveyard and prevent you from having to ping your own Lilli.
Thx for your short report! I still feel Carrion Feeder is underrated here but maybe he is a weaker card in the Angler-Shell or vs local meta decks. Two also are to few to really matter in a lot of situation so you simply might a) not draw him b) draw him in the wrong case or c) get him discarded/countered anyway.
Yeah 4th Badland might be a good call, i currently have 3/3/3 which works fine too (10 fetches + 1 UP) but maybe go to 4th Badlands again. Had an RUG opponent that tried to waste me out of red mana, which didnt work but let me think about the situation. Overall it will always be a small percentage you find yourself into a spot for a better land suit aka having ghast engine and need a fetchland over basic/dual, or need a swamp if you face moon or loam-wastelands, or need a 4th dual in terms of a offcolor spell etc = minor adjustments.
I currently try the following build:
4 Carrion Feeder
4 Gravecrawler
4 Bloodghast
3 Scourge of Nel Toth
4 Stitcher's Supplier
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lingering Souls
4 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
3 Goblin Bombardment
3 Badlands
3 Swamp
3 Scrubland
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
//Sideboard
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Fleshbag Marauder
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Wear // Tear
1 Darkblast
2 Abrade
Quite happy with it so far. Mainboard for me seems one of the versions that work well (other versions involve Zombie Fish, or Bridge/Entomb etc.) running 3 big Dragons in the new Stitcher shell is super aggressiv but it will not matter if your stitcher/looting put some fatty into yard, gets countered etc. - Bonus Points: Containment Priest will not stop the Dragon since its a "cast" effect and it gives the Deck a big finisher if you face Extraction vs Ghast/Crawler Engine. A lot of Decks simply cant beat a 6/6 Flyer! I currently try Collective Brutality - Bridge from Below was bonkers too vs some Decks and allowed quick combo wins with Feeder/Bombardment. Brutality itself is a card that is never dead (a point i really like) is on color and the discard option can't be stopped, it doesnt matter if your opponent will counter it, if you can still profit from "escalate" option.
Sideboard is still in constant change but i also added Abrade for a flexible solution vs Artifact+Creature decks. I like multipe solutions since it offers a flexible game play, less dead cards and overall save card space at main/side. Two highlights are Fleshbag Marauder and EExplosives. Explosives can do so many things, its not only a possible board wipe vs tokens (like ZPersecution) it will also allow to get rid of multiple permanents which really shines at crowded fields. Killing Cage+Delver/Nimble or Thalia+RiP etc. is very nice and speaking about Thalia: You can trick with sunburst here to ignore the +tax effect of thalia. Maybe go up to two Explosives at some point. Fleshbag Dude is a card i also played at the past since it can handle every creature problem this deck can have. Removing big Blockers like Gofy/Knight, removing "hexproof/shroud" stuff like TNN/Nimble, Removing big creatures like Emrakul/Grisel/Eldrazi (Bonus Points for SnT!) etc. Its also a Zombie (for Ghast) can block (and kill a lot of stuff with 3 Power) and a solid attacker, if you count in common counters like Pierce his 3 Mana Edict effect is cheap(er) compared to classic spell solutions too. Yes it needs 3 Mana, but it isnt meant for killing Lackey etc and without DRS a lot of matchups dont need Turn 1 Removal or you can handle the time frame with other stuff. Overall it also made boarding a bit easier since you still keep creature count up and creatures are the way to win in most cases.
TEAM MtG Berlin
So what do you think are the worst matchups? I've been jamming pickup games on MTGO in my free time, but not taking very good notes.
-The fair matchups seems fine provided you don't allow a Jitte to resolve. I think of the fair matchups, Maverick and/or AggroLoam is the worst.
- Reanimator seems unwinnable. We don't have interaction game 1 and games 2 and 3 require a lot of things to go right in our favor
- Mono red prison seems 50/50 provided we aren't shut down by chalice or bloodmoon effects.
- Miracles also seems 50/50 but is super grindy.
- I've been turn 0 leylined, but managed to just aggro around it.
- Bitterblossom has been very meh. It doesn't seem to be a good alternative win condition because people will be bringing in disenchant effects, this effectively gives them more things to use their disenchant on.
- I think I want to try Liliana, the Last Hope moving forward. in the sideboard. it wins the synergy award on all fronts.
- Has anyone tried Dismember? It seems functionally equivalent to snuff out and it allows you to kill opposing Gurmags.
- I also like the addition of the fleshbag marauders.
Good catch! I totally knew that but it never occurred to me. Thanks!
I just realized that Scourge is a zombie... I want to try a light Entomb package with a singleton Scourge as a tutorable fatty sac outlet. I want to complete the package with a single Rotting Rats as another GY friendly symetric discard outlet and tutorable cheap zombie. Given the choice, I'd rather have a Scourge in play over a Gurmag or huge Feeder. My question for the Scourge users is the following: Is 1 Scourge enough to win? How often do you need multiples? My guess is that one is enough given that it is readily available.
@MD.Ghost
I highly suggest 21 lands for this deck. I did some hypergeometric calculations and compared 20 with 21 lands for opening 7 with 2 lands and opening 9 (turn3) with 3 lands. You generally want a minimum of 2 lands for your opening 7 to be a keep. I rarely keep 1 landers unless they have a really good Looting play. By T3 we really want to make 3 land drops in order to be able to cast most of our spells. With 20 lands you have good chances of having exactly 2 lands but your odds of drawing less than 2 are greater than your odds of drawing more than 2 by aproximately 6% IIRC. Once you go to 21, the scales tip in favor of more than 2 over less than 2. This calculation is extremely relevant when you goldfish keepable hands. When I calculate for 3 lands by T3, the results are similar and the scales tip again slightly in favor of more than 3 > less than 2. This calculation is relevant when you want to make natural land drops until at least T3. Basically 21 lands is as good as 20 lands when it comes to having exactly 2 in your opener and exactly 3 in your first 3 turns (less than 0.8% difference) but is statistically significantly (>5% difference) better at making sure you flood rather than starve on lands. A flood is always more desirable than a shortage when it comes to lands, especially with land denial in the format.
Also, why 3 Swamps? I rarely ever grab them and when I do, 2 is more than enough before I start needing red and white.
@Mach00ga,
I playtested a lot against Maverick and Bant and the matchup is aprox 45/55 in their favor pre-board. Discard is tempo-negative and they play high quality threats with potent mana denial. Postboard is aprox 65/35 in our favor as they tend to bring in some GY hate while we get to replace sub-par discard with very strong removal. My SB plan looks like this:
-4 TS -4 Therapy
+1 Wear +3 Push +2 ZP +2 Liliana
With 2 Abrade/2 Snuff main already this gave me a lot of space to get some synergy going despite their attempts at GY disruption.
I didn't get to play lots of Reanimator but I assume it would be a bad matchup. I can usually navigate Grisselbrand and Grave Titan but I can't let Elesh Norn hit the board. I was thinking about playing 4 pieces of GY hate in the SB given that discard is not so stellar against GY strategies. Nihil Spellbomb and the new Spirit Cleric come to mind here as they are both excellent against Mongoose, KotR, and Dredge for instance. Perhaps Coffin Purge might be interresting here, especially with an Entomb package?
Monored is awful G1 if you can't fetch or haven't fetched a swamp on T1 and we are pretty much at the mercy of Chalice without Abrade. If we get a Swamp out and we can deal with Chalice, the matchup skyrockets in our favor. You better be darn well equipped for G2-3 because we have no margin here. Having 2-3 Abrade mainboard and winning the die roll goes a long way in this coin-toss matchup. 3 Wear in the SB is mandatory here for T1 Moon and any deck packing Chalice. Sometimes the matchup is very favorable and sometimes it isn't. Overall they have very strong tools to shut us down and it's up to us to decide how many slots we want to dedicate to fighting CotV.
Miracles is way better than you think. For me it's all about getting some savage early discard, landing a Lilly and trying to take advantage of recursion. Most Miracle decks play a mix of Priest and Surgical over RiP which is much easier to deal with. CB can be annoying but they really struggle with PW in general. Liliana is great at keeping Miracles hellbent while they search for an answer. I definitely want a 3rd copy and will likely include it over Sculler. My SB for Miracles is:
-2 Gurmag -2 Snuff -2 Abrade -1 Fetch
+3 Wear +2 Sculler +2 Liliana
Elesh is one of the reasons why I favor Snuff Out over Dismember. Gurmag is really scarce nowadays and not so difficult to chump. Snuff takes care of KotR, Goyf and Ooze that are way above 5/5 and costs 0 mana which is extremely relevant versus the 1 mana you have to sink in Dismember. Being able to hit Leovold and BSK can be relevant but I simply don't encounter those often. The good thing about Dismember is that the life cost is more flexible and therefore the second copy is easier to cast. Honestly if you want removal at 1 mana, it doesn't get much better than StP.
Liliana the Last Hope is an amazing SB card in our deck. I simply find Liliana of the Veil more commonly applicable because I can easily bring it in against Combo (Reanimator, SnT, Storm) whereas LtLH only comes in against certain aggro and control decks. Against Aggro, Veil shines against Delver and Maverick-type decks while Hope shines against DnT and tribal decks. Against control they are both great except Veil doesn't further our GY dependancy for value. Obviouslt a split is the best option against Control.
Sculler is the SB slot I am most dissapointed with as it only shines against combo and burn-type decks. If I do end up adopting the Entomb package, discard will be more readily availlable and I will drop Sculler in a heartbeat.
I also thought a lot about Sudden Demise and compared it mostly to Zealous Persecution. ZP is great against Active Moms, TNN, and decks that play a lot of x/1 creatures of various colors (Maverick and Bant). Demise is better against tribal decks like Goblins, Elves, Merfolks, and arguably DnT despite the fact that it can't hit Revoker and won't stop an active Mom which can be both answered by Bombardment and a wide array of removal spells. Being red and able to hit for 2+ damage is huge against Mirran Crusader, Prelate, SFM, and any tribal deck that has access to lords. The matchups that are the most impacted by -x/-x effects are the one relying on a critical mass of creatures (Tribal decks) while the Maverick and Bant decks are hindered more by Lilianas, Pushes, and Wears. For these reasons I believe that ZP is better in a vacuum but that Demise is better in practice by beimg the best answer for the matchups you specifically want that effect in.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
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