3-0ed last night again with a Mardu updated from a few weeks ago.
0 carrion feeders made room for 3 stps and 2 gurmags.
Round 1 2-0 Death Shadow
STP is sweet in this matchup
Round 2 2-1 Steel Stompy, White Edition
Chalices, Stoneforges, Etched Champion. This matchup felt unwinnable, but they shaky mana and careful navigation got me the win. Both games 2 and 3, I had my bloodghasts surgicaled into a chalice. But lingering souls OP.
Round 3 ID 2-1 For funsies Lands
This matchup seems winnable as long as you dismantle their engine and you don’t experience tabernacle + wastelands/ghost quarters. I even got to celestial purge a marit leige.
Tonight’s Fun-OF SB Card, Queen Marchesa. I didn’t play against a match where I could reliably cast it. Unfortunately monarch doesn’t work with goblin bombardment.
Finally after 2 perfect runs I had my first bad run with zombies in a while. I tested a pair of Kambals over the 4th Wear and 3rd Lily. Here's the list and how it went:
4 Stitcher's Supplier
4 Gravecrawler
4 Bloodghast
1 Scourge of Nel Toth
2 Abrade
4 Entomb
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
3 Lingering Souls
3 Goblin Bombardment
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
1 Arid Mesa
3 Badlands
3 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
//SB
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Coffin Purge
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wear // Tear
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocations
1-2 vs. Lands
G1 I keel a loose 1 lander with Looting but she has a T1 Diamond WasteLoam hand and I never draw a second land. I should have mulligan this hand knowing I was on the play against Lands.
G2 She keeps a hand with no green sources and never draw one.
G3 is long and grindy and I have her on the ropes with my recurring Scourge, Ghast and 2 Crawlers blocking Marrit Lage every turn and getting swingback. Topdecked Chalice at 1 eventually gets me while I draw blanks.
0-2 vs. BR Reanimator
G1 He's on the play and knows exactly what I am playing so he T1 Rituals into TS himself Elesh Norn and Reanimates it. I scoop em' up.
G2 I keep a good hand with Looting, StP, Liliana, Nel Toth, Crawler and 2 Lands. I play Looting into 2 Lands and discard Land + Scourge. He discards my StP. I draw Fleshbag and play Crawler. He Exhumes a Grisel and I get Nel Toth in play so he realizes he is facing Fleahbag or Lily next turn and Scourge swing so he pays 7 to draw into double Unmask and gets it. I lose from there.
2-1 vs. Enchantress
G1 I get some good discard going, EE deals with a few draw engines bur he stabilizes at low life with Elephant Grass. After 8 Lootings I eventually topdeck a Bombardment with my 20 card deck and win it.
G2 He has T0 Leyline of the Void and explodes on T2. I lose to helm T2
G3 Is long and grindy and I am struggling to get damage through. Kambal comes out when hes at 4 and prevents him from playing any spell until either of us finds an answer. I find Wear first and win.
2-1 vs. Nic Fit
G1 I discard his hand and go aggro, he can't fight back. G2 goes long and I die to an Ooze. G3 is a repeat of G1. StP on Explorer put in a lot of work.
Overall Kambal was underwhelming. I can think of only a few matchups where he makes a difference (Burn, Enchantress, and Storm although he is slow). Against control, Delver, Stompy, Midrange and the other combo decks I'd rather have another Liliana. Kambal is an OK one-of if you have a SB flex slot and need a little boost against Burn and Storm. In my list Kambal competes with StP#4 and Wear#4 so he probably won't make it in...
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
Maybe Creeping Chill might find some room in the deck, you can entomb for it and it works super well with supplier, what do you guys think?
Also goblin cratermaker maybe be good in place of abrade, as it is a beater and is not a dead draw vs certain decks on g1, and he can also deal with eldrazi/emrakul and delvers aswell.
What are your thoughts on these?
I don't like the idea of Creeping Chill myself... Zombardment, as I've played it, isn't racing in most matches (where a free drain effect would shine). It's more midrange. I'm now on Queerios StP SB plan, for instance. Obviously against Burn/UR Delver it might be ok, but even then if I were dedicating a deck slot it would be Collective Brutality.
Goblin Cratermaker is interesting... I've been loving the 2 MB Abrades I added, but since I still play 1-2 Bridge from Below, having another creature that sacs itself is nice, as is potential added value against Eldrazi/Sneak and Show. I might try it out. That said, it's hard for me to imagine giving up the instant speed answer, as Cratermaker effectively costs three to use against decks with removal.
It only helps with one side of Lingering Souls in the main, and adding it just for the SB cards seems to give up too much (either in terms of the number of 1-lands hands that then require a mulligan or in terms of using up a SB slot for a land).
How do you find the U/B Death's Shadow match up in general? I would assume an early Reanimated Street Wraith is a total nightmare for us, and most lists now seem to include that package. I imagine EE and StP are some of the better cards against them. In terms of our main plan pre-board, I assume aiming for Scourge or a big Bombardment finish would be good.
You are correct on your assumptions. A reanimated Wraith is our biggest concern past the usual Delver + Waste + Counters openers. The matchup is good if we make it past the initial onslaught ans we have all the tools to do so. Luck is the determining factor at this point. I suggest a 4th StP in the SB if you want to better your odds.
Cratermaker is definitely a nice card to have in our pool. Unfortunately I don't think 3 mana is acceptable as a replacement for Abrade.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
3-1 at FNM, with a hard-won last round:
Round 1
2-0 vs. Grixis Control
Game 1 is Supplier into double Therapy for immediate advantage, then Bridge from Below to lock it up quick. Game 2 I went down from two to one Bridges, but I hit one anyhow and he Surgicals it to discover that it’s my only copy. Feels good. My abundance of fetches let Bloodghasts play around Snap-Surgical for an easy win.
Round 2
0-2 vs. Lands
Game 1 he goes Mox Diamond, Exploration, fetch, Taiga. I get things rolling with a Supplier and a couple turns later some Bloodghasts, but he naturally draws Tabernacle, slowing me down, followed by a quick Marit Lage. Game 2 (in: 3 StP, 1 Wear // Tear, 3 Surgical)*I keep a reasonable hand with a turn one Thoughtseize and a StP but no Surgical. I Thoughtseize and see Gamble, Exploration, two Wastelands, fetch, Krosan Grip, Port. Ouch. I take the Gamble, thinking I can’t beat the “demonic tutor” for Loam recurring those Wastelands (and hoping he bricks on draw steps making the acceleration of Exploration less useful). He consequently gets his fast Exploration start and with Port and draws into Tabernacle again, then Loam to quickly lock me out. I think I should have taken Exploration instead and hoped for drawing into Surgical for Loam, but either way that hand seemed hard to beat.
Round 3
2-1 vs. Dragon Stompy
Game 1 he’s on the play and starts with a Chalice into Captain Lannery Storm into Thundermaw Hellkite. Can’t beat that. Game 2 (in: 3 Wear // Tear, 2 StP, 1 EE) I start with Supplier, which mills over a Bridge from Below, and he lands a turn 2 Rabblemaster. I don’t have an answer in hand to Rabblemaster, but I sack my Supplier to Cabal Therapy to be a blocker that trades, and showing some 4-dragon in his hand. He offers a trade—presumably out of fear of Bridge?—and I have time to get Bloodghast engine going before he draws another red source. Bombardment finishes him off. Game 3 I keep a slowish hand with EE, which I slow roll and eventually 3-for-one him (hitting a Chrome Box, Chalice, and Goblin token) and he can’t get back in the game.
Round 4
2-1 vs. Lands
Game 1 is close—his start isn’t explosive, but he lands a natural Tabernacle to gum up my works… which isn’t the worst for me, as I let Supplier die, which mills over Bridge from Below, and I recur some value. I’m one turn away from stealing the pre-boarded win when he dredges over Glacial Chasm followed by Dark Depths/Stage. Game 2 (in: 3 Surgical, 3 Wear//Tear, 2 StP… changing up my boarding from round 2) I keep a hand on the basis of speed, and my turn-1 Supplier acts as a ritual for a turn two Gurmag. The Gurmag clocks him down and I use discard to protect my Bombardment from Krosan Grip, which ultimately gets there. Game 3 I Surgical his Dark Depths early, discard his Tireless Tracker and the game becomes incredibly grindy. I slow roll Bombardment until I have a spare, since I had seen a Krosan grip and Surgical in his hand when I took the Tracker. I wait to Surgical his Loam, he then Surgicals himself and fails to find in response, which leaves me free to play my first Bombardment into the Krosan Grip that I know he has in hand. After the K-Grip, I resolve me second Bombardment and finish him off through Bloodghasts recurring as he tries to Ghost Quarter me down to zero lands… but I ran enough basics to get there.
***
Thoughts after the night of Lands—could there be room in the board for a Blood Moon effect?
I used to run two Magus of the Moon, which I missed this time. I like my current board which prioritizes StP, Wear//Tear, Liliana... but maybe one Moon? I was running Magus before since it makes Spell Pierce/Stubborn Denial (i.e. Grixis Delver, RUG, Shadow) and Duress (Turbo Depths mostly) look bad, but then again, the OG enchantment is still good against Turbo Depths and Zombardment’s Delver matchup seems ok to me anyhow.
Nice going Shonen!
I've tried Moon effects in the SB before and found them too narrow and quite frankly, unnecessary. I have a lot of experience against Lands and I think the matchup is quite favorable when played correctly. One thing I noticed is that you keep some discard in. I used to keep TS and 1 Therapy but quickly opted for no discard altogether. My strategy is simple: clog the board while you find a way to deal with recurring Waste (basics or extraction) and you will win the grind. Chasm cannot lock you out without exploration + recursion, PFire is too slow to control us and Marrit Lage can be stalled to death. Remember that you are the control deck in this matchup and that you only lose by letting Marrit Lage swing unblocked.
In: 1 Purge, 3 Surgical, 3 StP, 3 Wear (for Chalice and Explo/Diamond)
Out: 4 TS, 4 Therapy, 2 Abrade
Fetch basics
Go aggro (Entomb for Souls/Scourge)
Deal with Loam
Don't let Lage in! (Know your Crops!)
Grind with Looting and Bombardment
Good luck!
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
Thanks Qweerios! I'm sticking to a no-moon list, and I'll try to Surgical 'em out.
I went 4-0 at my last FNM before Eternal Weekend, which felt great.
R1
2-1 vs. Sneak and Show
Game 1 I was on the play, and kept a land-light, discard heavy hand that also had Supplier. I fetch a basic, Thoughtseize, see what my opponent is on and feel ok about the choice. Luckily I draw a second land and I can Cabal Therapy and Supplier to slow him down. Gurmag provides a fast enough clock to steal the pre-board win. Game 2 starts out similarly, but he digs for the right stuff and gets me with Show and Tell, Omniscience, Emarkul. Game 3 I lead on a Thoughtseize (he has Sneak Attack, double Ponder, Abrade) and I take the Ponder. I Therapy turn 2 but he hides the cards under a Brainstorm but doesn't get full fetch-shuffle value. I play a Bombardment, and eventually start clocking him with Bloodghasts. His Ancient Tomb helps me out a bit too. Finally, he Show and Tells in a Griselbrand while at 10 life with my 2 Bloodghasts + Bombardment out. At this point he could have payed 7/drawn 7, but decided to pass. I top deck a third Ghast and swing the hasty Vampires for lethal (sacking the blocked one to avoid lifelink and using Bombardment plus fetch to finish him).
Definitely got lucky on this one, but beating Sneak and Show without seeing sideboard cards is pretty satisfying.
R2
2-1 vs. LED Dredge (!)
Game he Dredges me out on turn 3 or 4, with a stocked yard double Bridge, triple Ichorid, playset of Therapy. Game 2 and 3 I see Surgical (aimed a Ichorids both times) and use Coffin Purge and my sac outlets to keep him off Bridges. Lingering Souls and Gurmag were both good as cheap clocks.
R3
2-1 vs. Goblins
Games 1 and 3 Bombardment is insane, and machine-guns down 15+ goblins, even through Chirurgeon regeneration. Game 2 he pings me down with Sharpshooter for the win. StP was great in the boarded games, and took care of a Kik-Jiki in the face of a Chirurgeon game 3 and Lackey that I couldn't block game 2.
R4
(Split, played it out) 2-0 vs. D & T
Shout out to the maindeck Abrade for dealing with his Miran Crusader game 1 (he had Revokered my Bombardment) and to StP game 2. Remembering that Containment Priest turns off his vial also helped :)
One last bit of spice to throw out:
Anyone ever tried Crippling Fatigue as Entomb-able removal? It is nice that it can kill Containment Priest.On the other hand, the sorcery speed as well as 3-mana front side is terrible. Darkblast could also serve that purpose, but since it usually can't deal with a two-toughness creature when it's the Entomb target that seems less applicable. Also, Goblin Bombardment itself is naturally great at all the things Darkblast does.
Sure! Some choices here (0 Carrion Feeder, 2 main deck Abrade) and sideboard (StP) are based on Qweerios' detailed information from this thread.
In terms of the weird numbers in my deck, they mostly have some thought behind them:
3 Entomb--I love the toolbox nature of the card, and the effect is very powerful. However, it can be mana inefficient in spots and the threats we get are not exactly "lights-out" so I'm loathe to have a full playset. However, I usually want to see one per game, and I like how they make virtual copies of the SB Coffin Purge.
2 Gurmag--it's insane in the fair match ups, but since we are already good there, I'd say my inclusion of two is more about getting a fast clock in combo matchups. If I keep a hand of mostly discard (mostly 1 for 1s) then clocking someone with just a Bloodghast etc can be a bit slow. Making Stitcher's Supplier into a Dark Ritual (that can also sac to Cabal Therapy) is great against combo. Gurmag is also nice against graveyard hate in post board.
2 Lingering Souls--It's nice to have a blocker and it can be milled over. Again, insane in the fair match ups. But those match ups don't need much help, so I trimmed down from the playset. 3-mana on the front is also bit expensive for Legacy. I have been thinking of going up to 3 (and down to 1 Bridge from Below).
2 Bridge from Below--Since I'm playing a "toolbox" list, I see this as a high-impact Entomb target. Scourge can be that too, but they are good in different spots. Yes, Bridge is unnecessary if the Bloodghast/Bombardment plan is going smoothly, but the amount of power Bridge can quickly create can make for a big comeback and also block a wide board. I definitely wouldn't go above 2 without playing more discard outlets (which suggests a different game plan), but having 2 copies makes it easier to Entomb for one if one has been exiled or is in hand. I often go down to one or zero post board.
4 Stitcher's Supplier
4 Gravecrawler
4 Bloodghast
1 Scourge of Nel Toth
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
2 Lingering Souls
3 Goblin Bombardment
2 Bridge from Below
3 Entomb
2 Abrade
Lands (21)
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
1 Arid Mesa
3 Badlands
3 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
Sideboard
1 Coffin Purge
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wear // Tear
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
Looks great man, thanks for that! I think I will try something similar to that one on monday. I need to change the chains on the SB for something since I dont have it. Probably a 3rd liliana or a 2nd EE...
I will also try 2 goblin cratermakers on the main instead of the abrades also, since we have bridges from below on the maindeck... lets see how it goes!
I've got an update for all the Vengevine Fans out there.
That's the BridgeVine List i've been testing for couple of weeks now.
This deck is a blast to play and has quite a lot of busted starts.
BridgeVine aka Zombardment aka Plants&Zombies
// 60 Maindeck
// 25 Creature
4 Vengevine
4 Bloodghast
3 Carrion Feeder
4 Stitcher's Supplier
4 Gravecrawler
1 Viscera Seer (ported from the modern build, can block(!), sac outlet for bridges and to scry for the spells/lands u need)
1 Scourge of Nel Toth (my greater gargadon impression, hilarious with bridges in the yard, but felt like a win more card, will be replaced)
4 Putrid Imp (very important to power out crazy T2 plays, discard bridges/ghasts/vengevines, can block most of the time and is 2/2 flying creature later on)
// 7 Enchantment
3 Goblin Bombardment
4 Bridge from Below (in combo with bomardment and other sac outlets very strong in this deck!)
// 18 Land
2 Swamp
1 Marsh Flats
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Undiscovered Paradise (for Bloodghast recursion and looting fodder)
// 10 Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy (one of the most powerful cards in the deck!)
4 Faithless Looting (makes the deck work)
2 Thoughtseize
// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Artifact
SB: 1 Pithing Needle (against Lands, S&S, D&T, random walkers)
SB: 2 Silent Gravestone (i really hate Extraction!, unfortunately it needs to be out in the first three turns)
// 9 Instant
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction (Reanimator, ANT)
SB: 2 Nature's Claim (Leyline of the Void, Rest in Peace, Equipments)
SB: 2 Assassin's Trophy (Leyline of the Void, Lands, Equipments)
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict (Reanimator, Eldrazi, S&S, Maverick)
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge (D&T, Eldrazi, Mono Red)
// 1 Planeswalker
SB: 1 Liliana of the Veil (Reanimator, Miracles, TurboDepths, grindy MU's)
// 2 Sorcery
SB: 2 Collective Brutality (Burn, red based decks)
_________________________________
currents thoughts:
- I like this list over the Mardu Entomb/Lingering Souls list. I feel it packs more punch and still uses the same idea.
- It is suprising how well this deck can operate on 2 or 3 lands
- trying to use creatures with spell-like effects because of vengevine and bridges (fleshbag marauder, goblin cratermaker...)
- the trade off is, that u don't have much interaction besides discard spells (for example: getting rid of artifacts and very huge creatures)
- in the next version i'll be testing a creature from very old lists: Rotting Rats (taking out Scourge and one Feeder)
- got into Top8 of a 30+ player tournament
Pro's:
- super fast and aggressive starts, most of the time u can overrun the opponent round 1
- very good discard suite!!!
- very mana efficient and has a lot of synergies
- very resilient against the usual removal spells in the format
Con's/Problems:
- the usual surgical extraction hurts quite a bit
- folds to Chalice on 1
- without the synergies u play (very) weak creatures ;-)
Moving forward:
- Testing Rotting Rats (discard outlet, triggers Vengevines, is a zombie, can be replayed from the grave after being sac'ed to bombardement or feeder)
- has someone tried Cratermaker (MB or SB)?
- what are your sideboard guides/plans against certain matchups like UW Stoneblade and Maverick?
Thanks for reading
- Philip
Why are we playing Carrion Feeder at all? It's just a mediocre beater that can't block. If I wanted a one-drop zombie I'd play Gravecrawler, and if I wanted a free sac outlet I'd play Greater Gargadon.
I went 3-1 yesterday with shonen's list, I believe the brigde from below build is stronger vs the matchups I was having problem with, even though I lost to burn (we played some games before the tournament and I won most of them)...
match 1 = 1-2 lost vs burn
g1 he did the usual stuff, I had a slow start
g2 I did an unbeliavable comeback (thanks to goblin guide giving me lands)and thanks to gurmag... I was able to finish him with gurmag, 2 crawlers, a ghast and a bombardment on the board for 16 damage in 1 turn, I was with 2 life
g3 he had some kind of nut hand and it was impossible
match 2 = 2-0 vs miracles
g1 won the dice roll and started with a therapy for brainstorm, taking 2... turn 2 i discarded the remaining cards on his hand, gg
g2 was weird, at one time I had to -2 liliana on myself to kill my gravecrawler to be able to make a zombie blocker out of bridge from below... weird game
match 3 and 4 = 2-0 vs goblins
they literally could do nothing on both games...
unfortunately the store I play was out of goblin cratermakers so I kept the abrades on the deck... I still think cratermaker is a pretty nice substitute for it, especially using bridge from below!
The list is very nice man!!
Against Burn is all about luck, I guess... you need to score some good 2 for 1 cabal therapies(at least), and gurmag/scourge are probably the key... Also if you can get like 3 blooghtasts is also a good way to race then...
Probably Collective brutality is something to look into, maybe fit 2 on the sb, but Im not sure we have slots for it.
- my latest update on the BridgeVine List. Added a 19th Land. That's why it's 61. ;-)
- -1 Carrion Feeder
- +1 Viscera Seer
- +1 Thoughtseize (7 pieces of hand disruption felt good)
- went 9th Place in our 38 Player Legacy Tournament today, which had over 20 different decks!
- Lost to Miracles and 4c Loam (tough MU w/ Chalices, Knights and T0 Leyline and i drew really bad)
- Wins against 2x Grixis Control, ANT and Eldrazi Post
// 61 Maindeck
// 24 Creature
4 Vengevine
4 Bloodghast
4 Stitcher's Supplier
4 Gravecrawler
2 Viscera Seer
4 Putrid Imp
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Scourge of Nel Toth
// 7 Enchantment
3 Goblin Bombardment
4 Bridge from Below
// 19 Land
3 Swamp
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Marsh Flats
// 11 Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
3 Thoughtseize
// 15 Sideboard
// 1 Artifact
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
// 11 Instant
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Assassin's Trophy (i think i should play 3 or even 4, or +2 Abrupt Decay instead)
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 Abrade
SB: 1 Tragic Slip (i wanted more effient removel for larger creatures under taxing effects)
// 3 Sorcery
SB: 2 Collective Brutality
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
- i might go back to 18 Lands
- i've tried rotting rats, but it was a little bit underwhelming
Thanks for reading. :)
Went to a top4 finish yesterday on a 1k, 33 players tournament! I did a 5-0-1 and won the 1st match on the top8 vs Eldrazi! Lost to a death and taxes on top 4 unfortunately... The match I ID we played for fun and I won, so in theory i went 6-0
I used a list similar to shonen's except with the goblin cratermakers instead of the abrades, and he won me some games beating!
My wins were vs 2 grixis control, bg depths, death and taxes, miracles, uw stoneblade and eldrazi. Lost to a death and taxes (I won g1 and he drew ALL the hate on g2 and g3) on the semi-finals....
Pretty confident with this list as it is! Goblins are great, Gurmag t2 is also great. Lingering souls won me many matches!
I'm not sure about ensnaring bridge on the SB, I think I might change it for the 2nd EE.
I have the Legacy nationals in 3 weeks, theres still time to make some final refinements on the deck!
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