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Thread: Avacyn Restored Card Discussion [SIMMERING POT OF FECAL MATTER]

  1. #581
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    Re: Avacyn Restored Card Discussion [SHITSTORM ONGOING]

    Quote Originally Posted by keys View Post
    Vexing Devil might turn out to be decent in sligh/RDW, but it's hardly broken. It succumbs to the Browbeat problem (i.e. giving your opponent choices). In practice, Vexing Devil will deal 4 damage and die 50% of the time (usually in the first few turns). The other 50% of the time, your opponent will have lethal the next turn and it will be irrelevant, or your opponent will have a blocker such as 4/5 Goyf or 5/5 Knight, or your opponent will just bolt/StP it. Rarely will your opponent be in a position where both options aren't manageable.
    I am looking forward to countering Vexing Devil for with COP:Red.
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    Re: Avacyn Restored Card Discussion [SHITSTORM ONGOING]

    Quote Originally Posted by baghdadbob View Post
    This is exactly what I was thinking. I mean all green decks play 'goyf with the reasoning of him being a 4/5 or 5/6 for 2. I can't think of a reason why burn wouldn't want 4 of these suckers main deck. I would also be very interested to this guy in conjunction with U/R delver. Seems good.
    If Goyf had:

    Every player may pay 4 life to destroy this

    Card would be bad.

    This isn't a creature. How hard is to understand that this is a card that's strictly worse than:

    R
    Deal 4 to the dome

    Strictly worse. No decent player will ever make this deal more than 4. If they see u run islands, they'll take 4. The only time where they won't take 4 is when they're at 4 or less or they have the win next turn.

  3. #583
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    Re: Avacyn Restored Card Discussion [SHITSTORM ONGOING]

    Playing a vexing Devil when an opponent got a planeswalker out will make him not make it deal damage to him even when having high life. Everyone should be fine trading creature removal for creatures its just how magic works. Not much you can do but trade for other cards.

    Like 1dropp zoo could easly play arround with the devil and a couple of Proclamation of Rebirth. Will not take much before pop / fireblast will be lethal.

  4. #584
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    Re: Avacyn Restored Card Discussion [SHITSTORM ONGOING]

    I look forward to proxying Vexing Devil in my Kird Ape slots in my current zoo build. I think it deserves to be tested out at the very least. I think it will have good application in Cat Sligh/fast zoo builds.
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  5. #585

    Re: Avacyn Restored Card Discussion [SHITSTORM ONGOING]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I look forward to proxying Vexing Devil in my Kird Ape slots in my current zoo build. I think it deserves to be tested out at the very least. I think it will have good application in Cat Sligh/fast zoo builds.
    I hadn't even thought about adding it to zoo/sligh builds. I am also very interested to see what it does replacing either kird ape or goblin guide. Good call Safety!
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  6. #586
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    Re: Avacyn Restored Card Discussion [SHITSTORM ONGOING]

    Quote Originally Posted by baghdadbob View Post
    I hadn't even thought about adding it to zoo/sligh builds. I am also very interested to see what it does replacing either kird ape or goblin guide. Good call Safety!
    No way this will replace Goblin Guide is any sort of aggressive deck.
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  7. #587

    Re: Avacyn Restored Card Discussion [SHITSTORM ONGOING]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gheizen64 View Post
    If Goyf had:

    Every player may pay 4 life to destroy this

    Card would be bad.

    This isn't a creature. How hard is to understand that this is a card that's strictly worse than:

    R
    Deal 4 to the dome

    Strictly worse. No decent player will ever make this deal more than 4. If they see u run islands, they'll take 4. The only time where they won't take 4 is when they're at 4 or less or they have the win next turn.
    If the deck that you put that hypothetical goyf in had something like 28-30 main deck burn spells. Then yes. Yes, absolutely, it would be sweet if they ate 4 damage to remove that creature. By all means, that sounds fantastic. That puts someone ~5 bolts from death if they haven't taken much extra damage. Except that goyf would be worse than this creature, because it doesn't do it for one. I'm all for 10 damage by turn 2, it makes killing someone turn 3 that much easier.

    The card will never do more than 4 damage. It will do 4 damage a lot though. So does Goblin Guide, more realistically Goblin Guide only ever does 2 damage (any situation in which goblin guide can do 4 damage, this card can do 4 damage as well with no drawback. Even guide might let them dig past land to removal spells).

    And that's ok... Because 4 damage for 1 mana in Burn or sligh decks is still fucking awesome. Can we at least agree on that? I mean why do you think Hanni's list runs Steppe Lynx? Because it's a 4/5 for 1. And you can kill Steppe Lynx with bolt just as easily, the cards are comparable. Running them concurrently would be bonkers.

  8. #588

    Re: Avacyn Restored Card Discussion [SHITSTORM ONGOING]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kich867 View Post
    If the deck that you put that hypothetical goyf in had something like 28-30 main deck burn spells. Then yes. Yes, absolutely, it would be sweet if they ate 4 damage to remove that creature. By all means, that sounds fantastic. That puts someone ~5 bolts from death if they haven't taken much extra damage. Except that goyf would be worse than this creature, because it doesn't do it for one. I'm all for 10 damage by turn 2, it makes killing someone turn 3 that much easier.

    The card will never do more than 4 damage. It will do 4 damage a lot though. So does Goblin Guide, more realistically Goblin Guide only ever does 2 damage (any situation in which goblin guide can do 4 damage, this card can do 4 damage as well with no drawback. Even guide might let them dig past land to removal spells).

    And that's ok... Because 4 damage for 1 mana in Burn or sligh decks is still fucking awesome. Can we at least agree on that? I mean why do you think Hanni's list runs Steppe Lynx? Because it's a 4/5 for 1. And you can kill Steppe Lynx with bolt just as easily, the cards are comparable. Running them concurrently would be bonkers.
    i absolutely agree , 4 damage for R , its awesome in any aburn build

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    Re: Avacyn Restored Card Discussion [SHITSTORM ONGOING]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gheizen64 View Post
    If Goyf had:

    Every player may pay 4 life to destroy this

    Card would be bad.

    This isn't a creature. How hard is to understand that this is a card that's strictly worse than:

    R
    Deal 4 to the dome

    Strictly worse. No decent player will ever make this deal more than 4. If they see u run islands, they'll take 4. The only time where they won't take 4 is when they're at 4 or less or they have the win next turn.
    I don't understand... 4 damage for R isn't a good deal?

    I think what you're trying to say is that the option lets the opponent choose which they think is better for them. If they can remove or otherwise thwart the devil on the ground, they'll let him stay, otherwise they'll take 4. A Kird Ape, on the other hand, must be answered with removal or obstacles, or he will keep swinging.

    Fair enough, but there has to be a drawback to a 4/3 one drop. Even Goblin Guide can be more of a drawback than a benefit, especially with cards like Brainstorm and SDT.

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    Re: Avacyn Restored Card Discussion [SHITSTORM ONGOING]

    Quote Originally Posted by Koby View Post
    Erm.. how? (Jace -bounce, Elspeth - token chump, Liliana - sac, etc)
    If you're forced to Jace-bounce to keep him off the table every turn, then Jace is going to die anyway. Unless you have some sort of miracle draw or something. ;-)

  11. #591
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    Re: Avacyn Restored Card Discussion [SHITSTORM ONGOING]

    Don't know if anyone's commented on this, but the basic lands in this set are gorgeous.

    http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/art...nrestored/cig#

    Edit - Then click "Other."

  12. #592

    Re: Avacyn Restored Card Discussion [SHITSTORM ONGOING]

    I think you may have copied the wrong link sir. But I did find them. This island is particularly amazing...

    - I don't see any clean way to link them -- any link I can find just dumps you into the white cards. - Bardo




    The swamps are also very nice!
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  13. #593
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    Re: Avacyn Restored Card Discussion [SHITSTORM ONGOING]

    Devil is the coolest card in this set and the coolest card applied to Legacy (since he narrowly fits into aggressive burn-style deck and has the potential to fit into Zoo where his purpose serves the redundancy slots of mana efficient damage-dealing spell/creature).

    IMO unless they spoil something crazy, I put my bets that Devil is the card that impacts Legacy in this set more than anything else (and yes, I'm on the train that the new Time Walk isn't as broken as most people would think. I might be wrong since I was wrong on Batterskull :P)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gheizen64 View Post
    REB is a fantastic sideboard card against blue... in blue decks :/

  14. #594
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    Re: Avacyn Restored Card Discussion [SHITSTORM ONGOING]

    If people start playing R/U/w Blue Sligh (instead of Mono Red Burn), it's going to be DTB easily. It was already top tier before... but now it's just rediculous.

    If the opponent lets me resolve Devil on turn 1 because they have an StP, what do they do when I drop double Delvers on turn 2? If the opponent takes 4 damage instead... fuck yes, I just did 4 damage for R.
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  15. #595
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    Re: Avacyn Restored Card Discussion [SHITSTORM ONGOING]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kich867 View Post
    This line of argument isn't valid. You're comparing two scenarios that won't occur given all things being equal.

    The idea that dropping a creature vs burn makes the implication that you're playing a creature over playing a burn, this isn't happening.

    You're replacing a creature with a creature. So arguments need to strictly be a creature to creature comparison. The idea of "Well you'd rather have the burn damage" makes the implication that top decking him instead of lava spike might not be as good--but how can that possibly happen when he's not replacing lava spike? They're being run concurrently.

    That's no different from saying, "Well if you replace Tarmogoyf with Vexing Demon, then when you top deck him instead of a Force it's clearly not as good." The demon wouldn't be taking the spot of a counterspell, just like it's not taking the spot of a burn, so being concerned that drawing it over something it's not replacing isn't logical. When you replace one land for another land, and you top deck that land, obviously you'd rather it be a lightning bolt, but the land didn't replace a lightning bolt, so there's no comparison to be drawn.

    So the real question is, when you top deck a creature--would you rather have Keldon Marauder or Hellspark Elemental... or would you rather have Vexing Devil, who quite frankly shits on both of those cards.

    If you top deck him looking for a burn, you would have top decked one of those two creatures in burn, and you wouldn't have that burn anyways...
    Granted, I worded what I said poorly... but I don't see how my argument is invalid. My point was that Vexing Devil will be better suited to a Burn deck that splashes rather than a traditional mono-red list. Regardless of what you cut for what, the fact that URx Burn variants can play even Daze as a 4'of gives you better chances of using this card effectively than in the traditional mono-red lists.

    I'm referring to the following scenarios...

    VEXING DEVIL IN MONORED BURN:
    Option 1:
    Your opponent has an answer to the creature and lets you have it. They kill the creature.
    Option 2:
    The opponent has no answer to the creature and it would rack up 8 or more damage if it hit play, so they take 4.

    VEXING DEVIL IN URx BURN:
    Option 1:
    Your opponent has an answer to the creature and lets you have it. They try to kill the creature. You respond and protect it from the removal spell with countermagic.
    Option 2:
    The opponent has no answers to the creature. They take 4.

    In either list, option 2 remains relatively constant; however, option 1 is far more effective in a list that can protect the creature with countermagic. This should be more than apparant by the fact that the rest of Burn's creatures don't really stick around for long, or can eventually be ignored because the rest of your creatures are so big (Goyf, KoTR, etc.). Vexing Devil is a huge fucking target and the 3 toughness means its going to eat a lot of Lightning Bolts and Chain Lightnings.

    Kich I wasn't referring to deck design per se so I'm not really sure where you're coming from. I'm not comparing him to another creature or a reach spell. I'm merely stating that the opponent actually gets to choose which one he is when it resolves, regardless of the fact that it is, in fact a creature by type; the point is it has a built in snuff out attached to it so to call it purely a creature is really half of the truth. You can't possibly know whether it will be a creature during the game, or R for 4 damage. It won't necessarily be replacing creatures in every deck that plays it I assure you.
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  16. #596
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    Re: Avacyn Restored Card Discussion [SHITSTORM ONGOING]

    Everyone is right about the new devil having the browbeat drawback.

    Think about it for just a moment:

    Most Combo decks won't care about the irrelevant 4/3.

    Control and aggro control decks will pick whichever they need. I have bolt or STP then I will pick creature. I have a grip of counterspells and/or discard then I will try the burn.

    Most straight aggro decks will pick the creature because they either have bigger creatures or ways to kill creatures.

    The creatures burn plays now have haste or does damage when they come into play bypassing Creature Removal. The new devil does not do either.

  17. #597
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    Re: Avacyn Restored Card Discussion [SHITSTORM ONGOING]

    You don't need countermagic to protect Devil for him to be good. The point of running a density of 16 super powerful 1 drop creatures is to be able to overload the opponent's removal. If the Devil eats a removal spell, that's no different than if a Delver eats a removal spell. Eventually, you're going to get one to stick, and then go to town. In this case, if the Devil sticks and they pay 4 life instead, that's still a fantastic value for the mana spent.

    EDIT: The Browbeat argument is also dumb. Paying 2R for 5 damage or 2R to draw three cards is decent, but still expensive. Neither effect is overpowered for the cost. Devil costs R for either a 4/3, or 4 damage. Regardless if the opponent picks the best option for the situation, both of those choices are still overpowered for their cost.
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    Re: Avacyn Restored Card Discussion [SHITSTORM ONGOING]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    If people start playing R/U/w Blue Sligh (instead of Mono Red Burn), it's going to be DTB easily. It was already top tier before... but now it's just rediculous.

    If the opponent lets me resolve Devil on turn 1 because they have an StP, what do they do when I drop double Delvers on turn 2? If the opponent takes 4 damage instead... fuck yes, I just did 4 damage for R.
    Firespout GG

  19. #599
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    Re: Avacyn Restored Card Discussion [SHITSTORM ONGOING]

    Firespout GG
    I lol'd.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  20. #600
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    Re: Avacyn Restored Card Discussion [SHITSTORM ONGOING]



    Heres the new walker.

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