[Discuss] Is Delver of Secrets overbearing?

[Aggro_zombies]

Yeah, I don't think anyone would give a crap about Mana Leak if they stopped printing stupid Blue creatures. Mana Leak is much worse if your using it to protect Amphin Cutthroat.

I think people would just splash for it at that point. See: blue-white Humans.

[Koby]

I'm arguing that it's a card whose value can be mitigated by careful deck construction, hence the comparison to Lackey. Lackey was an immensely powerful card if you got caught with your pants down, but if you were prepared it was really not an issue (calls to ban it notwithstanding).

But setting that aside, I think decks like RUG Tempo/Canadian and - to a lesser extent - UR Delver Burn perform useful metagame functions and should be supported for it. Both of those decks are good at punishing durdly plays as well as greedy deck construction, which is not something a lot of other Legacy decks do (or at least, not both at once). A deck with a quick clock, Stifles, and Wastelands provides pretty good incentive to not get greedy with your mana, while the quick clock and cheap counters curtails some of the "herp-a-derp ramp into garbage" that regularly plagues Standard formats.

In that sense, Delver is useful because it gives RUG/UR Burn decks some real teeth. Geese and Goyfs can be mitigated by clogged board states, and Clique is legendary, but Delvers + big guys can be legitimately scary.

And for the record, I hate double-faced cards with a passion. If Delver had an actual Magic card back and was instead worded like the Opal/Hidden/Lurking enchantments from Urza's block, though, I think it would be fine.

I agree with you on this point in regards to Legacy - Burn functions much the same by keeping the fundamental turn low for the format. My issue with the card is that it becomes oppressing difficult to answer by normal means for decks that are seeking to interact. It also forces the format into an awkward state where in order to beat Delver you overload on cheap removal, or play a deck with a faster fundamental turn. It's completely out of the color pie to give Blue a hyper aggressive creature that now allows Blue tempo decks to out-aggro Aggro decks. It continues the push that Eternal formats see - play Blue or bust.

[Aggro_zombies]

I agree with you on this point in regards to Legacy - Burn functions much the same by keeping the fundamental turn low for the format. My issue with the card is that it becomes oppressing difficult to answer by normal means for decks that are seeking to interact. It also forces the format into an awkward state where in order to beat Delver you overload on cheap removal, or play a deck with a faster fundamental turn. It's completely out of the color pie to give Blue a hyper aggressive creature that now allows Blue tempo decks to out-aggro Aggro decks. It continues the push that Eternal formats see - play Blue or bust.

Well, the same was true of Tarmogoyf at one point. Remember, prior to that guy's printing, blue decks ran shit cards like Werebear to beat people down. Then along comes Tarmogoyf and suddenly blue decks had a Werebear that required no work to be a Werebear. Cue calls for bans and whining about how Tarmogoyf was warping the format.

Blue can get there with any creatures because blue has Brainstorm, Ponder, and/or Preordain to have smoother draws than the other colors; Force of Will, Daze, Spell Snare, and Spell Pierce to regulate the opponent's game plan; and access to fetchlands and duals to splash basically any card that fills a gap. If Delver had been, say, red or black, blue decks could still splash it - and it would be arguably better in some ways, since then you couldn't use red Blasts to kill it.

[Humphrey]

and as the power creep goes on there will be a 5/5 for 1 with a minor drawback in the future. Well, it still dies to stp, innocent blood, force and stuff, but its stupid non the less.
I still want MM back to use cards with cc>1 or 2

[Malakai]

Yes, bring back Mental Misstep, the card that precipitated the most blue-dominant meta in Legacy history.

[Humphrey]

I like blue ;) And I hate to play against GW 4 of 7 rounds ;)

Maybe they can print something like U -Counter cc1. Its free when you didnt play a land yet.
I really dont like it, when games are basically decided who wins the coinflip.

[Phoenix Ignition]

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...g/daily/ld/191

Didn't know where to put this but this seems relevant here. Basic premise is that it's not SCM or Delvers fault but Mana Leak... yes, Mana Leak. Way too good. Really?!

Anyways, fuck Blue flying Wild Nacatls. Where is my RR for my 4/4 haste, trample guy? Maybe they'll print him later.

"But the reality (beyond the fact that you can prove mathematically that creatures were too weak for most of Magic's history, based on the number of turns it takes to resolve an average "goldfish" game state) is simply that spells are much more inherently powerful than creatures."

Oh, please mathemagic man, show me your proof. God I hate this article, he's so dumb on so many levels, and he's one of the lead designers of this game? I don't know how much more I can handle...

[Awaclus]

I really dont like it, when games are basically decided who wins the coinflip.

Since when have been doing so? There is no dominant fast combo deck, games are definitely also decided by playing skill, deck building skill, the deck you get paired against and the cards you draw (and all of these factors apply to the opponent as well).

[dschalter]

The problem with Mana Leak in the current standard format is that R&D has printed a variety of overpowered creatures, some of which cannot be hit by normal removal (Geist) and others of which it is difficult and/or unprofitable to remove (Delver being hard to kill because it comes out so fast and the Titans because they generate value even when killed) that the major decks now revolve around. This makes Mana Leak extremely powerful in two ways: 1) your best shot at beating some of these creatures (not Delver obviously, but this is very true for others) is to keep them off the field entirely, because dealing with them once they resolve is a huge pain and 2) these creatures are so powerful that they can win the game by themselves if they have Mana Leak backup to prevent your opponent from playing their overpowered dudes.

[dontbiteitholmes]

The problem in Standard isn't the creatures or the counters, it's the hexproof + equipment. Without the equipment to turn every creature into a potential 2-3 turn clock the deck would be a lot less scary. When it was the same deck but a bunch of illusions and no equipment the deck was fine and no one complained. Hexproof + Equipment especially unblockable Hexproof + Equipment was a terrible decision on WotC's part. The biggest downside to equipment was that if you went to attach it to a creature and that creature died you set yourself back, never having to worry about that with Hexproof guys is just dumb. Not to mention there's only a handful of card in Standard that can answer Hexproof guys at all.

Anyways why are we even talking about Standard?

[Koby]

Anyways why are we even talking about Standard?

This thread is to discuss Delver of Secrets amongst multiple formats.

[Aggro_zombies]

Anyways why are we even talking about Standard?

Because people have taken a poorly-worded explanation for an unpopular ban from Tom LaPille and blown that up into a casual hatred for R&D, or at least the development end of things. Combined with the linked article above, wherein Zac Hill explains R&D's stance that Mana Leak is too powerful in the same format as Delver, Titans, and Snapcaster, and we have the perfect conditions for a gripefest.

[DrJones]

People shouldn't worry about the Titans, they're about to rotate in a few months. They acknowledged it was a mistake to reprint them in M12 barely a month after the set got released, so it's dumb to expect them to be in M13.

[xfxf]

I already gave them feedback about Delver, Invisible Stalker, and Snapcaster Mage just when Innistrad was previewed, told them that hexproof was a mistake in blue creatures, and even told them to fire their current R&D team. Hey, at least they reassigned LaPille to D&D shortly after that!

For some reason your posts remind me of the name John Titor.

[ESG]

No, Delver is not overbearing in this format, although I loathe flip cards. The fact that it's very good and heavily played means that players need to respect it and build to beat it. This means not stopping at 4 1cc removal spells, or having some other plan for dealing with it. Aggro_zombies' comparison to Goblin Lackey is apt. Sweepers still aren't seeing as much play as they should. Gut Shot exists and sees basically no play.

However, I agree with Koby's concerns that WOTC is steadily pushing the format into a "play blue or bust" predicament, and that has frustrated me for a long time. Delver clearly should not have been blue, and I would say that Geist of St. Traft also shouldn't have been blue, nor should Snapcaster have been blue.

[dontbiteitholmes]

No, Delver is not overbearing in this format, although I loathe flip cards. The fact that it's very good and heavily played means that players need to respect it and build to beat it. This means not stopping at 4 1cc removal spells, or having some other plan for dealing with it. Aggro_zombies' comparison to Goblin Lackey is apt. Sweepers still aren't seeing as much play as they should. Gut Shot exists and sees basically no play.

However, I agree with Koby's concerns that WOTC is steadily pushing the format into a "play blue or bust" predicament, and that has frustrated me for a long time. Delver clearly should not have been blue, and I would say that Geist of St. Traft also shouldn't have been blue, nor should Snapcaster have been blue.

If I would have designed Delver as a 3/2 flyer for one blue I would have made him flip back if a player played two or more spells a turn and just flavored him like a Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde character. Just saying.

[Aggro_zombies]

and just flavored him like a Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde character. Just saying.

That card was Civilized Scholar / Homicidal Brute.

Although, a Delver that flipped back to his 1/1 side at EoT would be much less powerful. But that wouldn't have fit as well with the flavor they were trying to capture, which was an Andre Delambre (from The Fly) kind of character.

[ESG]

Personally, I would prefer less so-called flavor and more testing.

[dahcmai]

I don't mind it. Then again, I had just moved to playing Sudden Shock since it's fairly prolific. The look on people's face when they can't do a damned thing about it is priceless. Not a horrid card either.

[I am the brainwasher]

People shouldn't worry about the Titans, they're about to rotate in a few months. They acknowledged it was a mistake to reprint them in M12 barely a month after the set got released, so it's dumb to expect them to be in M13.

Which is already a way too often heard excuse for doing shit in the first place in order to sell packs.
Even MaRo admitted that they are always printing the color-fixing lands as Rares because it simply sells packs.
Same with Snapcaster, they knew it was too good, pooped on it since the card is something people want (must) to play with in a competetive environment (which unsrupringly sells packs on one end or the other).
Titans was basically the same, but that did a good job for all the Timmy's out there as well, plus beeing a shitty Promo that rewarded new players who bought the Duels of the Planeswalkers game.
Getting in touch with the game virtually, build a cheap-ass deck and...dominate your local group (friends) with that gigantic badass Titan. Nice that youngsters feel like king tapping those mofos, but ruining the format for way too long with such dumb ideas and excuse in hindsight is something I am quite sick and tired off.
Maybe you should consider writing a nice little criticism about that, oh well.

Delver of Secrets is a fair card IMO, since games stand and fall with him flipping or not and when you decide to do the first constantly, then you have to build your deck heavily around that, which opens you up to beeing weak to (currently heavily underused) strategies.
I admit that it was not the best idea to print that card together with so many other blue staples, that ensured pretty soon that a blue-based tempo strategy was the deck in Standard, but I love the card for what it does in general and it has (unlike half of AVR) a great flavour.
Banning it in Standard? Nope. Ban Snapcaster and it'll be just fine. It's that simple.
Delver's too good? Maybe. But maybe, just maybe people are not realizing that you should not expect to win against Delver (in pretty much every format) with playing too few removal/answers.
In Legacy (well, Threshold) the card is that good because the mana denial allows you, on the back of Daze, FoW and Spell Snare, to ride 1 or two copies of Delver/Goyf to victory since you could blank a lot of cards and turn things upside down with Mongoose to blank strategies that try to deal with the other part of your deck. Yep, thats good.
As a Threshold-player, all I can say is that the card really is nuts in this deck, but not even close to beeing unbeatable.
Maverick should pack additional Scryb Rangers, decks in general should pack more CC1 spotremoval and play more solid mana-bases and to be honest, if combo is a little fukced since him, thats nothing that denies the meta to become something more open (which allows decks that are way better at beating Delver to shine).
A lot of Delver's strength (in Legacy) is based upon the lazyness of a truck-load of players. Bitter pill to take, but a lot of people fail to realize that a whole lot of their beloved decks are outclassed heavily by new archetypes/decks these days, but that is not (only) the fault of Delver.
Those changes are part of the game, and just because this format is "eternal", that does not mean that the decks of it really are. I am not happy with that either here and there, but this is something that can't be stopped.



PS:
While we're at it, if Brainstorm really will get banned, the "problem" is solved on its own anyway, plus the the good half of Legacy-players are anyway just
.