[Premium Article] Breaking Temporal Mastery in Legacy -- SMIP Eternal Set Review

[DragoFireheart]

Why do you think I wrote this article? :p

dontbiteitholmes and Co. will still say that their testing shows otherwise. Honestly, it's all moot regardless.

Let people play with Temporal Mastery. People will either be ok or people will bitch and moan about how some blue deck getting extra turns and winning the game and then our local Hydra will blame Force of Will for making Temporal Mastery too good. No amount of data or inductive reasoning from either party is going to convince the other side. Everyone entering this topic already has their mind set on what they think is the right answer. It's going to take a month or so before we actually see how potent Temporal Mastery is. I don't think anyone knew exactly how powerful Vengvial was until it started showing results. It's going to be the same for TM and the other miracle cards. Maybe they will be too powerful. Maybe the miracle drawback will keep them in check. Anyone that claims to know for sure beyond speculation doesn't know, no offense.

As a shift slightly of topic, will Temporal Mastery see play in Vintage? Considering that the argument many anti-TM people make is that Legacy can't use the extra turns as well as Vintage, that leads me to believe that TM will see some play in Vintage. Slash Panther sees play, so it's not that much of a stretch...

[Smmenen]

I don't want to be cruel but "financial gain and market manipulation" are the words which come to my mind. I listened to the set review podcast and you sounded to be skeptical about the card and halfway through changed your stance and started saying "yeah, I agree it's going to be very good..". I don't intend to claim that the card is bad but just that I don't find your claims honest and sincere.

You are mistaken. I never expressed skepticism about Temporal Mastery in the podcast. I repeatedly described how broken it was going to me. You must be confusing Temporal Mastery with some other card we discussed.

Remember, in the podcast, we took Pro or Con positions, and I was the Pro for Temporal Mastery. So it makes little sense that I would have been critical of a card I was pro on. You must be confusing Temporal Mastery with Griselbrand, which I was assigned "Con" on, despite the fact that I think it's amazing in Vintage.

Financial Disclosure: I don't own any Temporal Mastery, nor have I ordered any. So, I don't make any money on speculating on Temporal Mastery.

[Smmenen]

dontbiteitholmes and Co. will still say that their testing shows otherwise. Honestly, it's all moot regardless.

Let people play with Temporal Mastery. People will either be ok or people will bitch and moan about how some blue deck getting extra turns and winning the game and then our local Hydra will blame Force of Will for making Temporal Mastery too good. No amount of data or inductive reasoning from either party is going to convince the other side. Everyone entering this topic already has their mind set on what they think is the right answer. It's going to take a month or so before we actually see how potent Temporal Mastery is. I don't think anyone knew exactly how powerful Vengvial was until it started showing results. It's going to be the same for TM and the other miracle cards. Maybe they will be too powerful. Maybe the miracle drawback will keep them in check. Anyone that claims to know for sure beyond speculation doesn't know, no offense.

As a shift slightly of topic, will Temporal Mastery see play in Vintage? Considering that the argument many anti-TM people make is that Legacy can't use the extra turns as well as Vintage, that leads me to believe that TM will see some play in Vintage. Slash Panther sees play, so it's not that much of a stretch...

I agree with some of what you say, but it's not moot. I'm not trying to persuade skeptics.

The main motivation for me for writing this article for Legacy players was to be one of the first to propose and suggest how to build Temporal Mastery decks that would most abuse this card. I wanted to be a part of the conversation.

[DragoFireheart]

The main motivation for me for writing this article for Legacy players was to be one of the first to propose and suggest how to build Temporal Mastery decks that would most abuse this card. I wanted to be a part of the conversation.

Well I can't see your build and I have a personal rule to never spend money on MTG articles. I suggested to the SneakNShow topic to use Temporal Mastery but it got shot down quickly.

As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure I've heard people shooting down TM for Reanimator, RuG, StoneBlade, and SneakNShow.

[Smmenen]

Well I can't see your build and I have a personal rule to never spend money on MTG articles. I suggested to the SneakNShow topic to use Temporal Mastery but it got shot down quickly.

As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure I've heard people shooting down TM for Reanimator, RuG, StoneBlade, and SneakNShow.

There is a reason all of my Temporal Mastery lists are Delver decks...

I would shoot down those approaches as well. As always, I explain all in this article.

[xfxf]

Financial Disclosure: I don't own any Temporal Mastery, nor have I ordered any. So, I don't make any money on speculating on Temporal Mastery.

My comment about financial gain was directed at the article being premium.

I have to go back and listen to the podcast again but I know for a fact that I'm not confusing it with another card. The other guy (sorry, don't know his name) went back to TM when you started talking about Griselbrand beause he just couldn't get enough of it. That's when you started to agree with most of his points and before that I had you on the "good but not so broken really" side. I clearly thought that you changed your take on it just so that you could hush him up and go on with the rest of the cast.

[Smmenen]

My comment abaout financial gain was directed at the article being premium.

I have to go back and listen to the podcast again but I know for a fact that I'm not confusing it with another card. The other guy (sorry, don't know his name) went back to TM when you started talking about Griselbrand beause he just couldn't get enough of it. That's when you started to agree with most of his points and before that I had you on the "good but not so broken really" side. I clearly thought that you changed your take on it just so that you could hush him up and go on with the rest of the cast.

LOL you've actually confused me with Kevin. I was the guy who went back to TM when we started talking about the red Planeswalker.

You didn't confuse the cards, but you did confuse me with Kevin. I am "the other guy." LOL

[xfxf]

Ok, that clarifies it. Sorry for the confusion.

Edit: I think that's pretty funny

[joemauer]

There is a reason all of my Temporal Mastery lists are Delver decks...

I would shoot down those approaches as well. As always, I explain all in this article.

Could you just copy and paste your article on these forums for us. That would make it easier on us.

[DragoFireheart]

Could you just copy and paste your article on these forums for us. That would make it easier on us.

He wants us to pay $3 for the article.

[Gui]

Honestly, it's taking too long for people to start testing TM in Canadian UGr. It's not even hard to come up with lists for that, just copy/paste winning Threshold UGr lists and remove 4 random for 4TM to test. They have all the manipulation and the aggressiveness for it to be useful already.

[wcm8]

Honestly, it's taking too long for people to start testing TM in Canadian UGr. It's not even hard to come up with lists for that, just copy/paste winning Threshold UGr lists and remove 4 random for 4TM to test. They have all the manipulation and the aggressiveness for it to be useful already.

I think BUG would actually be the better Thresh-style deck to fit TM into. BUG decks tend to be more proactively disruptive (Hymn to Tourach, 1CMC targeted discard) in comparison to RUG's reactive disruption (Stifle/Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, etc.). An utterly broken play I could imagine with TM would be back-to-back Hymn to Tourachs. Modern Team America builds also run Liliana and/or Jace TMS which would be another method of taking advantage of additional turns beyond the combat step.

[Einherjer]

What I can tell you from serious tests: TM is not broken in BUG Control! At the moment im trying it in BUG Midrange - and as you mentioned its quite powerful there - but Ill tell you all later once I finished testing!

[Finn]

Honestly, it's taking too long for people to start testing TM in Canadian UGr. It's not even hard to come up with lists for that, just copy/paste winning Threshold UGr lists and remove 4 random for 4TM to test. They have all the manipulation and the aggressiveness for it to be useful already.

This is my biggest beef with the card, and frankly the Miracle mechanic. It does not stoke innovation or creativity. At best it gets the format meandering in a direction around the card. At worst, it totally stifles diversity. The decks that can use the card best already exist.

Stephen, I fully expected to see this article from you. Now that you have signed off on its brokenness, I consider it mostly a done deal. Does anyone know for sure if this is an intentional bid to rid us of Brainstorm? Or is the game's design run by dolts? If Miracle get brainstorm banned and people start playing Scroll Rack and Magma Jet in midrange decks, I would consider the mechanic a success. But the format is going to suck eggs until then.

[Aggro_zombies]

I think BUG would actually be the better Thresh-style deck to fit TM into. BUG decks tend to be more proactively disruptive (Hymn to Tourach, 1CMC targeted discard) in comparison to RUG's reactive disruption (Stifle/Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, etc.). An utterly broken play I could imagine with TM would be back-to-back Hymn to Tourachs. Modern Team America builds also run Liliana and/or Jace TMS which would be another method of taking advantage of additional turns beyond the combat step.

The problem with Temporal Mastery is that people are so enamored with the concept of Time Walk that they will stick it into decks for which an extra turn is really nothing special. I mean, if my opponent sets up a turn three Mastery and all he gets out of it on average are an unflipped Delver, maybe an extra land, and another attack step, the deck is not Hulk Flash v. 2.0.

Decks like Bant that want to actively tap out more than 10% of the time stand to benefit most from an extra turn or two. A deck like RUG doesn't really leverage the card well unless you radically rework it to be some sort of tapout RUG deck.

EDIT: If it wasn't clear, I'm mostly echoing wcm8 here, which is why I quoted him.

[Smmenen]

The first deck I designed and tested tried to split the difference between tempo and control, as is described and can be seen in the article. However, I quickly discovered -- and this was a key finding -- that the absolute best way to maximize value out of Temporal Mastery is the attack step. That's why I run Devil, Guide, etc, with Delver in my other lists in this article.

If you aren't using Temporal Mastery to gain additional attacks, you aren't maximizing the value of the card in my opinion. That's why I think it's so strong in the hyper tempo Delver decks that are already dominating Legacy. Hence, all of the conclusions I draw in this article.

[baghdadbob]

I heard battle of wits deck broke the format this guy obviously doesn't know what he's talking about.

[dontbiteitholmes]

dontbiteitholmes and Co. will still say that their testing shows otherwise. Honestly, it's all moot regardless.

Let people play with Temporal Mastery. People will either be ok or people will bitch and moan about how some blue deck getting extra turns and winning the game and then our local Hydra will blame Force of Will for making Temporal Mastery too good. No amount of data or inductive reasoning from either party is going to convince the other side. Everyone entering this topic already has their mind set on what they think is the right answer. It's going to take a month or so before we actually see how potent Temporal Mastery is. I don't think anyone knew exactly how powerful Vengvial was until it started showing results. It's going to be the same for TM and the other miracle cards. Maybe they will be too powerful. Maybe the miracle drawback will keep them in check. Anyone that claims to know for sure beyond speculation doesn't know, no offense.

As a shift slightly of topic, will Temporal Mastery see play in Vintage? Considering that the argument many anti-TM people make is that Legacy can't use the extra turns as well as Vintage, that leads me to believe that TM will see some play in Vintage. Slash Panther sees play, so it's not that much of a stretch...

Mastery seems terrible in Vintage. Don't forget that there you only get one Brainstorm and you can tutor up real Time Walk fairly easily if you want.

As I've said before I'm skeptical about Mastery being broken, but I'm certainly open to the possibility. I believe I've also said before that if it does turn out to be good it will probably be in some kind of UR or RUG Delver list. I'm very curious about the decks in the article but not so much that I'm willing to pay for them, so I'll just wait and see like everyone else.

My testing for Reforge the Souls also led to Belcher, but I don't think taking out Belchers is the answer. I'm probably more interested in this decklist. Reforge in my testing made Belcher much more consistent, but I think leaving in Belchers lets you still explode early more easily vs. blue decks without having to give them 7 more chances to draw into Force. Also I think Mindbreak Trap is going to see a lot more play if Belcher picks up Reforge and runs with it.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

anyone that claims to know for sure beyond speculation doesn't know, no offense.

tm lacks that. In fact, it's better than time walk as you can cast it on your opponents turn. The fact that you have to cast it the turn you draw it as your first draw is a minor drawback, what with brainstorm and jace being in the format.

lol

[Smmenen]

Mastery seems terrible in Vintage. Don't forget that there you only get one Brainstorm and you can tutor up real Time Walk fairly easily if you want.

As I've said before I'm skeptical about Mastery being broken, but I'm certainly open to the possibility. I believe I've also said before that if it does turn out to be good it will probably be in some kind of UR or RUG Delver list. I'm very curious about the decks in the article but not so much that I'm willing to pay for them, so I'll just wait and see like everyone else.

That's my conclusion as well. It's kinda funny how people were so resistant.

I'm confident that my lists, or something very close to them, will be putting up major Top 8 numbers soon. I just wanted to be one of the first to get good lists out there.

My testing for Reforge the Souls also led to Belcher, but I don't think taking out Belchers is the answer. I'm probably more interested in this decklist. Reforge in my testing made Belcher much more consistent, but I think leaving in Belchers lets you still explode early more easily vs. blue decks without having to give them 7 more chances to draw into Force. Also I think Mindbreak Trap is going to see a lot more play if Belcher picks up Reforge and runs with it.

By taking out Belcher, you get to add a few lands as well. My list actually has more than 2 lands!

You get plenty of answers to MBT with Gutteral Response, etc.