Food Chain Combo

[metamet]

So, this is interesting, but might be too slow (and is similar to Spoils of the Vault, drawback wise): Desperate Research

[gottfrid]

Wrote a long report from the danish legacy masters tourney for a swedish website but I lost it due to a misclick in posting.

Short version follows:

List was:
4 food chain
3 misthollow griffin
3 manipulate fate
3 fierce empath
1 emrakul
1 consecrated sphinx
4 baleful strix
4 deathrite shaman
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 abrupt decay
3 inquisition of kozilek
4 force of will

4 polluted delta
3 misty rainforest
3 verdant catacombs
2 underground sea
3 tropical island
2 bayou
1 island
1 swamp

SB was
3 spell pierce
1 misdirection
2 obstinate baloth
3 golgari charm
3 relic of progenitus
1 abrupt decay
1 duress
1 cabal theray

R1 Lost to infect. In g3 he had 2 inkmoths in play and played the +6/+6 lure miracle pump on one of them. He has one more card. I'm at eight poison with foodchain 3 griffins and deathrite in play and fow+misdirection in hand. No spell in his game makes it worth countering there since I can regrow my griffins and I actually lose the race if I counter and his last card is the unblockable infect creature. I let it resolve only to see the last crad in his hand is pendelhaven which kills me with active fow in hand.

R2 was vs esper blade. I lost game 1, but turned the match around. jaces were grinded down by hardcast griffins. I won the last game comboing out but he was already lw eough that it would not have been necessary.

R3 was vs black white stoneforge deck. Don't remember much here except I won 2-1. He had mother of runes bob etc I believe. Non-batterskull equipment are actually quite good against us, so I got a little lucky here. Decay on equipment vs stoneforge decks is a huge tempo investment from their side which is what we need to get the cardmachine rolling.

R4 was vs a friend of mine with Maverick. G1 I had double fow backing up a t3 combo win. I needed both forces too =)
G2 was pretty much the same. I forced a knight of the reliquary that would attack my mana. On the turn that I comboed off which was pretty quickly, (t4-5) he had a knight and a pridemage in play but was tapped out. I dropped foodchain and when he went to get an untapped land for the pridemage I decayed it and won.

R5 was agains rug delver. This game was won pretty handliy 2-0. Rug is an ok matchup but it is important to protect the mana. dacay is important, as well as the relics and extra dacay from the board. Any deck can lose against rug, but I think this deck actually has somewhat positive percentages against it. the longer the game goes the better for us obviously.

It was 7 rounds so Ive forgotten one round. The last round I was forced to play because I was paiered against the X-1 in 9th place. (I was eigth). She was on dredge. I offered the draw and told her to tell me if she changed her mind during the game. One person at X-1-1 could steal her top8slot if he won.

In our match she handily crushed me in g1. I forced a putrid imp and played a manipulate fate. She played dread return for iona on blue .. gg. g2 I landed relic and then deathrite. She had out sfor a turn or two but within 2 rounds I was sure to win. At that moment the X-1-1 guy lost and we drew for top8.

In the semi I played a friend of mine on esper blade. I won quite easily due to him muliganing both games. I ended up with a sphinx in play when he had no more swords for it.

In the semis I played rug. I lost the first game fair and square to a t1 delver backed by counteragic. I saw no decay. G2 was absurdly long and I kept running spells into his counters while he found no gas of his own. I made at least two misplays. One being usng a force of will (pitching griffin) on a goyf instead of one of the three decays in my hand. I had not seen a nimble mongoose and I was going to play the griffin next turn anyway. He bolted the griffin and brainstormed into two mongeese that killed me.

All in all I went 6-2-1 winning two bayous and two scrublands... About the sideboard I never used the baloths which are there for burn and jund/team america (bad matchups that I dodged). The golgari charms are against decks like elves maverich belcher enchanterss etc.. I rarely side these and will switch them for a better card. other than that the sb is fine Relic is a bit slow vs dredge and reanimator/tinfins but it's so good vs rug that I feel they are the graveyard hate of choice.

Any tip on what to put in the board over g-charms would be much appreciated. I dont really feel like we need more against maverick or belcher, and no one seems to play elves anymore.

C-ya.. dont let this thread die out completely. Glad to see 'shute and metamet at least still working on this

[gottfrid]

Daaaaiiiimmn that desperate research card is pretty cool.

If it get you what you want and exiles a griffin it's nuts. Depends on how often it will miss though. Will have to test that!

[nevilshute]

Thanks for the report Gottfried :)

I've decided to tweek my list to resemble yours quite a bit. My only differences are:

- 3x Inquisition + 2x Thoughtseize/1x Duress
- 1x Fierce Empath + 1x Griselbrand
- 1x Consecrated Sphinx +??? (so far I'm at +1 Wall of Blossoms, but it could be something else entirely, like Sylvan Library for instance).

On these points I'd like to ask you about your arguments for bringing the Sphinx to begin with? And also how well you'd say it performs all in all. I mean it's a brutal effect, once it gets to trigger, but it just does nothing when facing a Swords to Plowshares or other instant speed removal and then it just feels like a wasted 6cmc.

I'm thinking that if it's because we want another big/devastating creature that might not win on the spot like Emrakul, but will effectively end the game in a few turns and can be hard cast then isn't Griselbrand really what we'd like? He doesn't pitch to Force and is 2 mana more expensive, but he is just so much better once resolved.

If it's because we'd like to up our blue count and want a spoiler card at a reasonable mana cost that will sway the game in our favour then is Sphinx preferable over running, say, a singleton Jace?

I'd love to hear your thoughts and experiences. The Sphinx is quite rediculously good if they can't answer it before drawing their next card :)

And I wholeheartedly agree that we need to keep this thread going. I won't be playing Food Chain for the next couple of weeks (at least not in any tournaments) but will report back once I do.

@metamet: Desperate Research seems familiar to Ancestral Knowledge which I tested for a while. Looking at the top seven (it is 10 in the case of AK) won't reveal a Food Chain nearly as often as we'd like it to in my experience. If you decide to test it I'd be very interesting in hearing your findings though :)

[metamet]

Thanks for the report gottfrid! Good stuff there. :)

I like the idea of maindeck discard, and I was *sort of* achieving that with two Cliques, but I think the discard sorcery spells might have a home there. How often did they feel like they were pivotal?

And I agree with nevilshute on the Sphinx completely. While a nice card to land, it doesn't change the field once it hits (like Gris and Emmy do). Although it's easier to hardcast, is the effect worth the gamble?

I still love this deck, but I haven't been getting much Legacy in lately due to doing Muay Thai on Legacy nights. I had to sacrifice something in order to kick my girlfriend, and my weekly Legacy tournament happened to be it. :X But I still try to play a tourny a couple times a month, and I do play with friends pretty regularly.

I'm excited for spoiler season, as any 6 drop on color piques my interests. Wish they would bring back Evoke...

[laststepdown]

As for 6 drops, I've been using Prime Speaker Zegana instead of Griselbrand, and I still run 1 Emrakul. I'm also running Tarmogoyf though-I only own 2 Baleful Strix-and personally don't like more than 2 Manipulate Fate. Goyf has actually been amazing as an alternate win by itself. As it does. Regarding Clique, I think it's probably one of the better interaction cards we have, barring FoW and Thoughtseize.

[grokh]

Hi all, metamet, shute !

Just last week, I won a tournament with my decklist !

It was at a 9-players tournament and i ended 1st with 4-0, I only won by 2-0 each time !

What's the secret ? Lots of cantrip creatures, and big drawers.

Here's the list :

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// NAME : New Food chain
// CREATOR : grokh (magic-ville.com)
// FORMAT : Legacy
1 [UNH] Forest
1 [R] Savannah
2 [UNH] Island
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [AVR] Griselbrand
1 [CHK] Myojin of Seeing Winds
1 [CMD] Æthersnipe
3 [CMD] Fierce Empath
4 [M12] Birds of Paradise
4 [AVR] Misthollow Griffin
4 [CMD] Mulldrifter
4 [SH] Wall of Blossoms
4 [CMD] Wall of Omens
4 [MM] Food Chain
2 [MM] Misdirection
4 [CMD] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [IN] Manipulate Fate
SB: 1 [] Rest in Peace
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [CFX] Progenitus
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [7E] Compost
SB: 1 [VI] City of Solitude
SB: 1 [M13] Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [PT] Natural Order

I run 4 Mulldrifter, and 8 pseudo-Wall of blossoms. It was almost impossible to fizzle cos i have Myojin of seeing winds, allowing me to draw a lot even if i haven't enough life for a Griselbrand

R1 vs Bant : i just combo-off too fast, crushing him 2 times !

R2 vs Esperblade :
G1, he manage to put Batterskull on board, but i combo and crush him.
G2, he discards me 3 times during the 3 fisrt turns but i land a pseudo-Wall of blossoms each turn. He finally puts Jace, the mind sculptor on play, begins to control my topdecks but i had all i needed for combo in hand and combo next turn. I killed him with Emrakul, the aeons torn + Griselbrand

R3 vs Poison mono-G :
G1, he begins hitting me just to 4 poison counters but i combo in one turn and kill him
G2, he has only 2 Inkmoth nexus during a long time attacking me for 1 poison counter each turn and i kill him by combo in one turn/

R4 vs ANT :
G1, he begins to storm, but he misses one colored mana, so storm at 6, i take 12 damage, but i had a [card]Misthollow griffin[/card] on board achieving him for 3 damages per turn
G2, he tries to discard but the discard is highly counterbalanced by the CA i generate each turn with a pseudo-Wall of blossoms. I can see him very sad when i land a Myojin of seeing winds and draw 10 for 0, then combo with all my kills on board !

My thoughts :
- Myojin of seeing winds is REAL REAL powerful, he saved me from fizzle a lot of times !
- having 3 Fierce empath is needed, cos he'll enable the combo each time
1) if no infinite but < 7 life, go AEthersnipe, then re-Fierce empath then Myojin of seeing winds FTW
2) if no infinite but > 7 life, go AEthersnipe, then re-Fierce empath then Griselbrand FTW
3) if infinite, go Emrakul, the aeons torn FTW

It's just 3 cards in the list but you'll never be able to fizzle with it, always ensure to win in the turn.

I've really loved my SB toolbox with Enlightened tutor, cos i can face against almost any deck with it !

Thoughts ?

[gottfrid]

The reqasoning behind sphinx is based on the following observations made when testing with this deck:

A. I observed that I wanted a hardcastable card that could be fetched with empaths in addition to emrakul.
When I only had emrakul as empath target it happened a lot that I either could've cast a sixdrop, or that I already had emrakul in hand and couldn't even get a card from the empath.

B. The secondary empath target needs to cost six. It is difficult enough to resolve anyway and for seven or more mana you would almost always need food chan to cast it anyway, at which point emrakul would only be better. I believe that griselbrand is very bad in this deck, and I don't understand why it's in a lot of lists tbh.

C. The secondary empath target needs to be blue. I has been very important , winning me many games, to be able to convert an empath into fow fodder. With this creature blue, FoW is really, really good in the deck.

These observations, taken together, result in one copy of sphinx in the deck. He's simply the best blue sixdrop in magic.

[laststepdown]

I'm pretty sure Vela the Night-Clad wins on the spot as a blue secondary win empath 6 cmc target as compared to Sphinx or anything else.

[Darkenslight]

I'm pretty sure Vela the Night-Clad wins on the spot as a blue secondary win empath 6 cmc target as compared to Sphinx or anything else.

Yes, yes it does.

[gottfrid]

Again, we are not looking for a creature that wins the game when we have food chian + griffin(s) going.

Emrakul does that, so in that case you'd go get him.

We are looking for a card that best makes use of an empath in a late game where we have traded resources but we don't have food chain.

That said, vela is interesting. It's a shame she dies to a single removal, otherwise emrakul could have been substituted for her, since she's also blue. Swords vulnerability makes that idea less good, though Emrakul also protects against painter and is really crucial part f our strategy against show and tell decks, so ... emmy is the best primary empath target.

[nevilshute]

Long time, no Food Chain news. I've been playing all sorts of other decks this past month and a half, everything from Maverick to ANT, but the other night I got that itching in my fingers... sometimes you just have to summon some griffins!

So I re-assembled the deck and went to a new LGS close to where I live that have started running a weekly legacy tournament. It was a relatively small turnout of 16 players. We played five rounds with a top four play off. I ended up getting into the top four where I lost my semi-final against ANT. All in all I was very pleased with how things went and how the deck performed.

Rnd 1: Against UB Tezzeret: won 2-0. Decent match-up. They're big combo hate is their MD chalice which doesn't hurt us that badly. We also have Abrupt Decay MD to answer it if need be.

Rnd 2: Against Jund: lost 1-2 (really annoyed as I had beat this player four times prior to the tournament where we were just playing for kicks). It seems like a good match-up for us. Abrupt Decay is annoying, but it seems that they're too slow killing us and we should be favored.

Rnd 3: Dead Guy Ale: won 2-0. Again, not a bad match-up. He had very little interaction and I comboed off easily in both games.

Rnd 4: Combo Elves: won 2-1. Slow combo deck against a slower combo deck. Feels like we have the upper hand.

Rnd 5: ANT: ID 1-1. We played anyway and I won 2-1. Tough match-up imo.

Semi-final: ANT (same player): lost 1-2. Like I said, tough match-up. I feel I have a decent sideboard to fight them, but it's still an uphill battle.

I ran a list very, very similar to the one Gottfried top-4'd with at the DLM:

4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Misthollow Griffin
3x Manipulate Fate
1x Consecrated Sphinx

4x Food Chain
3x Fierce Empath

2x Thoughtseize
1x Duress

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Baleful Strix
3x Abrupt Decay

Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

2x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
1x Forest
1x Island
1x Swamp
4x Polluted Delta
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard:
3x Spell Pierce
1x Misdirection
3x Relic of Progenitus
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Cabal Therapy
1x Abrupt Decay
3x Golgari Charm
1x Karakas

My biggest issues were probably down to not having played the deck for a long time. I made a couple of silly mulligan decisions (or rather failure to) during the game. One of which I'm fairly certain cost me game against the Elves player. I also find it difficult finding what to side out. The list feels quite tight.

[Water_Wizard]

@gottfrid and everyone else - why Inquisition of Kozilek over Thoughtseize or Duress? It seems like Thoughtseize is superior due to its ability to grab Force.

[grokh]

Hi,

I just played the deck on a 18 player tournament, finished 4th.

I lost agaisnt Burn cos when i had my Griselbrand, i was at 7 life so couldn't activate it, obliged to declare end of turn, then he finished me during his turn.

Have you ever considered Drogskol reaver as a SB option against Burn or all decks agressing our life too much ?

It has double strike, is blue for Force of will/Misdirection and it'll make you draw and gain life, and it's CCM for being tutored with Fierce empath

Thoughts ?

[nevilshute]

Hi,

I just played the deck on a 18 player tournament, finished 4th.

I lost agaisnt Burn cos when i had my Griselbrand, i was at 7 life so couldn't activate it, obliged to declare end of turn, then he finished me during his turn.

Have you ever considered Drogskol reaver as a SB option against Burn or all decks agressing our life too much ?

It has double strike, is blue for Force of will/Misdirection and it'll make you draw and gain life, and it's CCM for being tutored with Fierce empath

Thoughts ?

I'd certainly be interested to hear how Drogskol Reaver plays. I haven't faced off against burn for a long time, but it's a notoriously hard match up for us judged on my experiences.

I'm going to be trying out 2x Spellskite in my sideboard for any Jund/bug deck packing Abrupt Decays.

When I played last week Abrupt Decay was quite annoying and Spellskite seems like a really good weapon against it :) I'd be interested in hearing if anyone has any experience using them. In either case I'll report back with my own findings.

On another note:

I think this primer could really use a brush up. It doesn't mention running the deck in a BUG shell and nobody plays Maga anymore.

I'm not overly familiar with this sort of thing, but is there anyway around creating a whole new thread? Not sure if the person who started this thread is active anymore, but I don't think so.

[grokh]

I'd certainly be interested to hear how Drogskol Reaver plays. I haven't faced off against burn for a long time, but it's a notoriously hard match up for us judged on my experiences.

I'm going to be trying out 2x Spellskite in my sideboard for any Jund/bug deck packing Abrupt Decays.

When I played last week Abrupt Decay was quite annoying and Spellskite seems like a really good weapon against it :) I'd be interested in hearing if anyone has any experience using them. In either case I'll report back with my own findings.

On another note:

I think this primer could really use a brush up. It doesn't mention running the deck in a BUG shell and nobody plays Maga anymore.

I'm not overly familiar with this sort of thing, but is there anyway around creating a whole new thread? Not sure if the person who started this thread is active anymore, but I don't think so.

Oh you know, i've never played the BUG shell, i'm playing on a UGw shell full combo since a long time and i did 6-3 at Bazaar of Moxen Day 1 this year (708 people tournament in France)

Spellskite seems to be a good idea against Burn too, cos you can redirect a burn spell from you on him maybe ...

[metamet]

I'd be happy to write the primer. I can post a cross article over at Quiet Speculation around the same time.

In prep for the primer, what're everyone's current lists?

And on Drogskoll -- it seems that Gris is simply a better option, as they both have lifelink and neither has haste. They take a turn to swing, Gris gains +7 and Drog only gains +6. Gris's butt is a few points bigger too.

For Burn and other aggro decks, I like to bring in one Wurmcoil Engine.

[nevilshute]

metamet! You'd be the perfect choice to write the primer.

My current list is as follows:

Creatures:
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Baleful Strix
3x Misthollow Griffin
3x Fierce Empath
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Consecrated Sphinx

Spells:
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Food Chain
3x Manipulate Fate
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Thoughtseize
1x Duress

Lands:
4x Polluted Delta
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
2x Bayou
1x Island
1x Swamp
1x Forest

Sideboard:
3x Golgari Charm
3x Spell Pierce
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Cabal Therapy
2x Spellskite
1x Misdirection

Feel free to post for assistance/questions for writing the primer. Looking forward to it! :)

[Obould]

Hi,

my current list is this:

Lands:
4x Misty rainforest
4x Wooded foothills
1x verdant catacombs
3x Tropical island
2x Bayou
2x forest
2x island
1x swamp

Creatures:
1x Emrakul
3x Misthollow Griffin
3x Fierce Empath
1x Aethersnipe
1x Griselbrand
4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Tarmogoyf
2x Wall of blossoms (baleful strix would be better)
2x Mulldrifter (same as above)

Spells:
4x Food chain
4x Force of Will
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
2x Manipulate fate
1x Sylvan library
2x Misdirection

Sideboard:
1x Tarmogoyf
2x Spell pierce
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Umezawa's jitte
3x Pithing needle
4x Abrupt Decay

I think I can change main misdirections and sylvan library for discard. Though Misdirection has been great in my meta full of abrupt decays. Aggro MU's hasn't been an issue with my list thanks to tarmogoyfs and wall of blossoms. My list have a plan B with beatdown and I have won quite many games without comboing beating with tarmos and shooting with shamans.

[nevilshute]

@Obould:

I think we can all relate to what you're saying about the beatdown plan. I think, in an askew sort of way, that that is what the deck has going for it: it's midrange combo deck. I'd estimate that, of the games I win, probably a quarter of them are from griffin beatdown + DRShaman pinging. The Baleful Strix (and in your case, Tarmogoyf to an extent) buys us time against the fair midrange decks such as Jund, BUG and the likes.

Can I ask you, how are the goyfs working out for you? I know metamet were running them as a sideboard plan for a long time but (I think?) has since then dropped that plan.

I've never tried them, mainly due to not owning any goyfs, but also because they've always seemed a bit underwhelming due to not having an EtB ability.