HBP, I took what you said into consideration and altered a R/B list I mocked up slightly changing the count of some spells and adding dangerous wager. This is what I plan on testing This weekend:
2 Reforge the Soul
2 Past in Flames
4 Burning Wish
4 Gamble
4 Manamorphose
4 Thoughtseize
4 Dangerous Wager
2 Faithless Looting
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething song
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
2 Lotus Petal
4 Badlands
2 mountain
1 swamp
4 bloodstained mire
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Past in Flames
1 Grapeshot
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Pyroclasm
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Pyroblast
I agree that reforge isn't as good against blue but with the thoughtseize I suspect it will have better game. I knew a mono red build wouldn't be optimal but I wanted to see how things played out. Adding black gives access to more efficient rituals and discard. I really don't feel like blue is necessary, I feel it convolutes my original idea. I prefer to have the deck play how I originally constructed it.
Once you're in black, why are you still bothering with Reforge over the tried-and-true engine of Ad Nauseam? Especially with cards like Dangerous Wager, whose flavor text might as well be "'Fizzle me!' - Anonymous Storm Player"?
LOL, I'm just trying different things. I would love to be able to optimize a mono red build to where it has game against the field, but if adding black allows me to retain the basic idea of it but make it more efficient and resilient then I'd be stupid to not try it. I also think that looting is better than wager but I've played the deck out and can see where it could be useful, only testing will allow me to fully optimize the list.
The best splash for any reforge deck would be white for the chant effects. Having some discard doesn't help when you give a blue player a new seven. Maybe squeeze in some defense grids in the SB as well.
Supposedly dontbiteitholmes broke reforge already, but he's not giving out his secret. If reforge is broken(I haven't tested to know either way) then I would focus on that card.
If we wanted to play Ad Nauseam we would be playing one of several tried-and-true Ad Nauseam lists, not running a bunch of cards that are simply not good with Ad Nauseam. And what you should be comparing to Ad Nauseam is Gamble > Past In Flame, not Wager.
Regardless. Dangerous Wager is actually quite good in this deck. Gamble, respond with Wager, crack LED, draw two cards and fetch Past In Flame is an incredibly strong play.
As for running a lot of discard with Reforge: it simply does not work in most cases. If they have anything you want to make them discard, Reforge becomes a dead card, as it gives them seven more chances to draw it, and almost certainly on your combo turn when you do not have the mana to spare.
Reforge is still a great Wish target, but running more than a singleton MD is a bad idea if you're running discard as well.
I considered both chant/silence and defense grid naturally, even had a single defense grid at the scg cause I lost the tendrils somehow and only had one anyways and asked people to bring some cause scg didn't have any. I must admit I didn't look any further into the white splash because I felt white had nothing else to offer. Maybe the small white splash with the defense grids is better but I assure you I'm pursuing every avenue. That's why I posted this to hash out the issues, discuss, theorize etc.
Reforge the soul is awesome and naturally Past in Flames goes with it and Im bringing attention to Gamble and its interactions.
I would think Night's Whisper is far better than Wager if only because your hand doesn't have to be empty to make the most use of it.
After a bit more testing, I think Gamble > Past In Flames is the real deal. It feels much more consistent than Ad Nauseam for getting to what you need as quickly as possible, and Gamble isn't entirely dead without LED like Infernal Tutor often is.
That being said, the rest of the deck still seems really rough. Going to start trying everything I can think of until it works out a bit better elsewhere. If it can stay mono-red, that would be great, but I somehow do not think that will be the case for the best possible list.
In fact, I think I am going to try a list with one Ad Nauseam as a Gamble target after Past In Flames. White splash will have to wait until I see how that works out.
As for Night Whisper, it is only really better than Wager on non-combo turns. Otherwise, they are nearly identical, with Wagers instant speed allowing for some cute tricks that Night Whisper does not achieve as fluidly.
Last edited by HPB_Eggo; 05-08-2012 at 01:17 AM. Reason: Fixed some spelling errors.
I think the SB Gamble should just be a SB Infernal Tutor, the problem with SBing Reforge the Soul and Gamble is that you're decreasing your MD threat density in situations where you'd only be using LED in conjunction with Burning Wish to wish for them anyway, at which point you may as well just be playing Diminishing Returns and Infernal Tutor.
Edit: Also how are you guys usually winning after you've Gambled for Past in Flames?
I tried a long time ago to make a mono red storm deck, but at the time i didn't consider Gamble. I really like your idea.
I think i'm going to test a mono red build using 4 Gambles, 3 Past in flames and a single Reforge the soul; 8 business spells. I will also try 4 Manamorphose and 4 Gitaxian probes in the deck, not only for their ability but also because of the cantrip.
Just like the poster above me, i would like to know what's the most common way to victory after going Gamble for Past in flames (or the general paths to victory this deck have).
Thanks in advance.
It usually does not matter a whole lot how you win. If Gamble hits and Past In Flames is uncountered, you van simply replay all the rituals that got you there and flashback Gamble to fetch your win condition.
As to what that condition usually is, I would say Empty The Warrenns is what I fetch most often. Burning Wish into Tendrils is the only other method of victory that I usually go for, but Grapeshot isn't bad.
If you really want to just go for the blazing fast mono-red build, try running multiple Grapeshot as your win condition. It is the easiest to recur with Past In Flames, allowing you to build a truly enormous storm count with only a handful of cards.
I would also advise cutting Past In Flames to two at Max. You will never need the third, and it does not matter if you draw one naturally, as you can pretty much always Gamble for one without any drawback.
Thanks for the answer.
Another question, how as been the behaviour of Reforge the Soul, is it worth to run 2 ou 3 copies of it ?
I am currently running only a singleton Recorge in the SB as a Burning Wish target to build up the storm count in a pinch, where I have rarely used it. This is largely because it does not play well with discard.
In a mono-red list the drawbacks of the card start to matter less and less. With no real protection except, possibly, an REB or two, it really does not matter if your opponent gets to draw off it. I would probably fool around with running 2-3 along with the normal 4 Faithless Looting and see where that gets you.
Let me know whoa it goes, I am curious about the mono-red but only have time to test the black splash as of the moment.
gamble the wincondition doesnt really work after past tho cause it doesnt have flashback.
But the wincon gets flashback from past Waikiki
Currently playing: Elves
@waikiki: It usually works out. The actual method is slightly more complicated in some scenarios. To be more exact...
Let us say you have Gamble in hand with some business, and can either reach seven mana or are forced to try to do so regardless.
You first burn your whole hand. Use Faithless Looting with as much in hand as possible for greater freedom in what you discard. Obviously cantrip Probe and other things as much as possible.
Now. Chances are you will hit a second Gamble in the midst of all this. If you do, great! You simply Gamble for the win condition before Last In Flames. If you do not, you should have 1-2 draw spells in the yard and it still will not matter.
Let us assume we Gamble for PiF without a second Gamble. Crack all your LED in response and cast any Wagers you might have (obviously only one if you draw well). From here, you should have two cards in hand and access to all the gas that got you to this point.
If yoou do not discard PiF from Gamble, great! It has flashbacks, so things are easy. Cast it, recur everything, cast Gamble, flash it back if you discard your win condition and win ( obviously you will have more in the yard from additional Faithless Looting, Wager, and/or LED).
Now, if you discard PiF, things beg a little tight. You will have two other cards and will have to flashbacks PiF. From here, you simply have to find another Gamble, as thid will let you fetch your second PiF in addition to grabbing your win condition while continuing to go off.
Failing that, Gamble with some cards in hand and pray.
For reference, my list currently runs exactly two PiF as a result of this problem. A third is unnecessary, though.
EDIT: @catmint : It actually will not. PiF only gives flashbacks to what is already in the graveyard, not anything in it over the course of one turn
This particular portion of the deck actually feels better than ANT. As mentioned before, a lot of the rest of the deck feels very rough, but Gamble and PiF is very, very solid.
Maybe with more testing I will find it is not, but for the moment I am going to at least take a shot at an optimized list to see how good it can be. It's even possible that Gamble>PiF is much better but the cards to support it properly simply do not exist yet.
As for graveyard hats, that is a pretty big problem in games two and three. With the black splash I have taken to sticking Ad Nauseam in the SB as a secondary engine and Wish target. It seems to be working fairly well.
EDIT: Bounce from the SB with a light blue splash for permanent stuff or Chant to stop Extraction with a white splash would also work in some situations. Many decks also will not side in both combo and graveyard hate as they might think it either unnecessary or it will cripple the deck in some way to take out so much stuff.
Ad Nauseam cannot be tutored with burning wish, it is an instant.
Also, Opponents have brought in surgical extraction against me and that was the reason for the gamble in the sb. Although I realized it was redundant since you could just wish-->pif there probably will be times when that gamble in the sb matter g2/3 so siding out a gamble for those games is a good idea.
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