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Thread: Firestorm

  1. #41

    Re: Firestorm

    Quote Originally Posted by rxavage View Post
    Ad Nauseam cannot be tutored with burning wish, it is an instant.
    Herp deep. Sometimes I need to read more carefully.

    At least I got all the PiF stuff right, so far as I can tell.

  2. #42
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    Re: Firestorm

    Quote Originally Posted by HPB_Eggo View Post
    Herp deep. Sometimes I need to read more carefully.

    At least I got all the PiF stuff right, so far as I can tell.

    No worries, I overlook things more often than I'd like, I actually made the same mistake when i first built TES. Just reminding you so that it doesn't cost you a game, not to be a douche. I'm glad you decided to try the deck and help improve it so thanks.

  3. #43

    Re: Firestorm

    Quote Originally Posted by rxavage View Post
    No worries, I overlook things more often than I'd like. Just reminding you so that it doesn't cost you a game, not to be a douche. I'm glad you decided to try the deck and help improve it so thanks.
    No worries. I understand.

    On a related note, this means I will almost certainly try a MD Ad Nauseam, rather than the one in the SB I have at the moment. Shall wait and see if it works MD as an out to graveyard hate.

  4. #44
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    Re: Firestorm

    Reforge the Soul was my intended plan for GY hate.

  5. #45

    Re: Firestorm

    It actually works fairly well in that capacity. Mostly I am looking at Ad Nauseam as a better possibility and a secondary engine. We will see if that pans out.

    In related news, I moved back to running one Reforge MD, even with the black splash and how poorly it functions with discard. Simply too powerful to overlook getting one without Wish.

  6. #46
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    Re: Firestorm

    Quote Originally Posted by HPB_Eggo View Post
    Ad Nauseam
    ...is garbage in this deck. Since you've just discovered that Burning Wish can't find an Instant you obviously aren't a storm player -- so you should probably try testing TES or ANT before you throw Ad Nauseam into a storm deck willy-nilly. I sometimes kill myself with AN while piloting TES (really you want to reach storm 4 and resolve Wish=>IGG in that deck, Ad Nauseam is always risky), which has a much more forgiving curve for resolving AN. A deck with 4x Seething Song in addition to 4cc win conditions isn't going to do well with AN. Sure, sometimes it will work out, but it won't be consistent enough to be a solid plan B.

    I can see why you want AN, though. In the Reforge list I've been testing (UR) my biggest issue is just drawing more cards. Sometimes I'll end up with PiF and rits but no real action. But I think the best solution is more Reforge the Soul and blue cantrips (especially since a resolved Reforge is frequently gg).

    You guys also might try testing out Pyromancer Ascension as well (which I know nameless one mentioned on page 1 but nobody has mentioned since). It could be win more, I'm not sure, but it gives the deck another must answer card and if it resolves you can get some ridiculously explosive turns (I've had goldfishes that could have played through Thalia and 2-3 Mindbreak Traps, that's how crazy it can get).

    Edit: Also I think you're running Probe and Thoughtseize? That makes AN even tougher to cast. Don't forget that your opponent will probably be chipping away at your life while you set up the combo.

  7. #47
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    Re: Firestorm

    Lochlan, can you show us the list you've been working with? I also don't think Ad Nauseam is the way to go with this, i've played ANT for some time and most of the time i ended up going with IGG loops to win because Ad nauseam is so unreliable.

    I'm trying to build a mono red list... but maybe in this case UR is the way to go...

  8. #48

    Re: Firestorm

    Would you ever consider running Winds of Change in a deck like this, or would it just not be effective enough?

    Moreover, I think the important thing to find is that you have the capacity to go off successfully against other decks' nut draws.

  9. #49
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    Re: Firestorm

    Quote Originally Posted by claudio.r View Post
    Lochlan, can you show us the list you've been working with?
    Sure. It's definitely not optimal (frankly it is probably just bad), but I'm still experimenting a lot. Basically it started out as a UR storm shell (which I believe started with this) and was influenced by lists and suggestions here and on the storm boards. Here's the list I'm currently testing:

    Main:
    4 Pyromancer Ascension
    4 Burning Wish
    3 Past in Flames
    3 Reforge the Soul

    3 Intuition
    2 Gamble

    4 Rite of Flame
    4 Seething Song
    4 Manamorphose

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder

    4 Flusterstorm

    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Scalding Tarn
    1 Polluted Delta
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    4 Volcanic Island
    2 Island
    1 Mountain

    Sideboard:
    1 Banefire
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Empty the Warrens
    1 Reforge the Soul
    1 Grapeshot
    1 Past in Flames
    2 Echoing Truth
    2 Sudden Shock
    2 Pyroblast
    3 Lightning Bolt


    The sideboard is just thrown together and is basically just a wish board for goldfishing plus a couple rough ideas.

    Past in Flames/Intuition/Reforge the Soul is dirty, but when you put them together with Pyromancer Ascension it's just bonkers. It can turn a couple rituals into insane amounts of mana, makes Manamorphose a color-fixing ritual that also draws 2, and turns every burning wish into a double win (or makes casting Grapeshot on Teeg that much easier). Once you have Pyromancer Ascension in play with two counters it's almost impossible to disrupt the combo once it's begun.

    Pretty sure that the Brainstorm/Ponder package is the right amount of dig. I tried adding some Preordains, but it was just way too much, and shaving the number of Ponders kept me from finding my combo pieces fast enough.

    I am not sure about the Gamble. I need to test more, but I'm leaning towards cutting it.

    Flusterstorm is there because I wanted some protection maindeck for the combo, but also if I play something like this in my meta I will need to beat TES.

    I really want to make this deck faster, but to do so I would need to play Lotus Petal and/or Chrome Mox (since playing the third-rate red rituals after Rite of Flame and Seething Song just seems so bad), which are anti-synergistic with PiF. And maybe that's OK, but I haven't figured out a good configuration for this yet. -3 Business and +3 Lotus Petal seems good, but I'm not sure what's right to cut.

    Final thought: Reforge the Soul is almost never cast as a miracle. It's almost always better to just hard cast it. I'm pretty sure that will always be the case in any deck similar to this.

  10. #50
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    Re: Firestorm

    @lochlan: Have you tried out Faithless Looting in your build?

    It might be interesting with Ascension, especially due to its flashback.

  11. #51
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    Re: Firestorm

    Gamble is better than Intuition in this deck, but Intuition with Ascension seems fun. Also, I have included flusterstorm in my U/R build, but that plays a little different.

  12. #52

    Re: Firestorm

    Quote Originally Posted by lochlan View Post
    ...is garbage in this deck. Since you've just discovered that Burning Wish can't find an Instant you obviously aren't a storm player...
    I have not played an actual storm deck since Mystical Tutor was banned. I played a very typicla UBw list that, to this day, is the only list I have ever taken to a larger event and done well with. I was dead tired when I tested it that way, and if you can honestly say you've never tried something silly that just doesn't work, well, good for you.

    Anyways. Now that your ad hominem attack is out of the way...

    Ad Nauseam absolutely is trash. Even after removing Probe and Thoughtseize, it simply does not work very well. I even attempted a flat-out transformational SB to dodge graveyard hate in either game two or three. It worked better, but still was not great.

    As for your list...

    Gamble is better than Intuition. That extra mana is very relevant. Probably great with Ascension, but at that point it seems like you are slowing down too much. Maybe I am wrong. Testing should tell that.

    Ascension is probably worth testing, but you should absolutely be running Faithless Looting to help enable it. Possibly also Wager, but that would require some testing. Unfortunately, it will not take counters from flashing things back, otherwise I would be sold immediately.

    Your list also seems to lack enough acceleration to be consistent. That I am not sure on, but no Petals and only two rituals seems a bit low, especially if you are going for Intuition over Gamble.

    Late today I may try your list. Probably at least going to test Ascension in a mono-red list. Seems like it would work fairly well there, as well, especially a slower list with MD bolts.

  13. #53
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    Re: Firestorm

    Quote Originally Posted by HPB_Eggo View Post
    Late today I may try your list. Probably at least going to test Ascension in a mono-red list. Seems like it would work fairly well there, as well, especially a slower list with MD bolts.
    Agreed. Ascension may be what monoR version needs to hold up against counters.

  14. #54

    Re: Firestorm

    How do you get Burning Wish to trigger PA without having one in the yard? It gets exiled upon resolution, so you presumably would have discarded one, but no FL in the 60 right now?

  15. #55

    Re: Firestorm

    I think he was referring to Burning Wish getting copied by Pyromancer Ascension. I doubt you would ever get the chance to add a counter with it.

    In reltaed news. Faithless Looting is very good with Pyromancer Ascension, at least for getting counters. I haven't yet decided if it's good enough for the mono-red list, as it's definitely a bit slower, but it is silly once you get it going. 2 Faithless Looting and an Ascension in hand at the beginning of the game makes for a very fast win if your opponent doesn't deal with the Ascension.

    Anyways. Back to testing.

  16. #56
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    Re: Firestorm

    Quote Originally Posted by lochlan View Post
    Sure. It's definitely not optimal (frankly it is probably just bad), but I'm still experimenting a lot. Basically it started out as a UR storm shell (which I believe started with this) and was influenced by lists and suggestions here and on the storm boards. Here's the list I'm currently testing:

    Main:
    4 Pyromancer Ascension
    4 Burning Wish
    3 Past in Flames
    3 Reforge the Soul

    3 Intuition
    2 Gamble

    4 Rite of Flame
    4 Seething Song
    4 Manamorphose

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder

    4 Flusterstorm

    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Scalding Tarn
    1 Polluted Delta
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    4 Volcanic Island
    2 Island
    1 Mountain

    Sideboard:
    1 Banefire
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Empty the Warrens
    1 Reforge the Soul
    1 Grapeshot
    1 Past in Flames
    2 Echoing Truth
    2 Sudden Shock
    2 Pyroblast
    3 Lightning Bolt


    The sideboard is just thrown together and is basically just a wish board for goldfishing plus a couple rough ideas.

    Past in Flames/Intuition/Reforge the Soul is dirty, but when you put them together with Pyromancer Ascension it's just bonkers. It can turn a couple rituals into insane amounts of mana, makes Manamorphose a color-fixing ritual that also draws 2, and turns every burning wish into a double win (or makes casting Grapeshot on Teeg that much easier). Once you have Pyromancer Ascension in play with two counters it's almost impossible to disrupt the combo once it's begun.

    Pretty sure that the Brainstorm/Ponder package is the right amount of dig. I tried adding some Preordains, but it was just way too much, and shaving the number of Ponders kept me from finding my combo pieces fast enough.

    I am not sure about the Gamble. I need to test more, but I'm leaning towards cutting it.

    Flusterstorm is there because I wanted some protection maindeck for the combo, but also if I play something like this in my meta I will need to beat TES.

    I really want to make this deck faster, but to do so I would need to play Lotus Petal and/or Chrome Mox (since playing the third-rate red rituals after Rite of Flame and Seething Song just seems so bad), which are anti-synergistic with PiF. And maybe that's OK, but I haven't figured out a good configuration for this yet. -3 Business and +3 Lotus Petal seems good, but I'm not sure what's right to cut.

    Final thought: Reforge the Soul is almost never cast as a miracle. It's almost always better to just hard cast it. I'm pretty sure that will always be the case in any deck similar to this.
    Interesting approach but you'll want more rituals if you want to consistently abuse Past in Flames.

    I'm going to keep an eye on this deck as it develops, probably do a little testing myself. Its an interesting concept. All things considered, I think at the end of the day its not going to be better than DDFT in terms of fighting through hate but it will likely be easier to play than DDFT. Right now lists look too slow. Intuition, Pyromancer's Ascension, etc. they are all just too slow. It looks like you'll be going off about the same turn as Grinding Station but with less protection.

    On the topic of Pyromancer's Ascension... Cabal Therapy is pretty sweet shit, especially since you can also run Probe to combo with Therapy, and even Culling the Weak as massive acceleration (with Tallmen obviously). Tallmen like Phyrexian Walker and Shield Sphere would also give you extra time to go off against aggro, get rid of a hate bear with cantrips and/or Burning Wish, etc. If you don't want to run Culling the Weak, Diabolic Intent is another option that would allow you to benefit from the tallmen plan.
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  17. #57
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    Re: Firestorm

    If testing a U/R list you might as well use personal tutor. I used gamble originally because I don't own personal tutors.


    3 Reforge the Soul
    1 Past in Flames
    4 Burning Wish
    3 Personal Tutor
    4 Manamorphose
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Flusterstorm
    4 Rite of Flame
    2 Pyretic Ritual
    2 Desperate ritual
    4 Seething song
    4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Volcanic Island
    3 Mountain
    2 Island
    4 Scalding Tarn

    SB
    1 Reforge the soul
    1 Past in Flames
    1 Personal Tutor
    1 Grapeshot
    1 Emtpy the Warrens
    ...

  18. #58
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    Re: Firestorm

    So, I find it weird to say this but Faithless looting is better than Brainstorm in this deck. I'm still trying to get play down correctly with the personal tutors I proxied. And Flusterstorm is sweet but 4 main is unnecessary.

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    Re: Firestorm

    Quote Originally Posted by rxavage View Post
    So, I find it weird to say this but Faithless looting is better than Brainstorm in this deck. I'm still trying to get play down correctly with the personal tutors I proxied. And Flusterstorm is sweet but 4 main is unnecessary.
    If you feel like Faithless Looting is better than Brainstorm here, then do you still feel like Personal Tutor is the right call here over staying out of blue with Gamble?

  20. #60

    Re: Firestorm

    I think white would probably be better than blue. With reforge the souls being the main engine, chant effects seem like the optimal form of protection. The mono-red version probably wants Ascension in the board. I might be playing the mono red version this weekend, so I'll get back with results if I do.

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