Firestorm

[rxavage]

If you feel like Faithless Looting is better than Brainstorm here, then do you still feel like Personal Tutor is the right call here over staying out of blue with Gamble?

My initial impression is personal tutor isnt any better than Gamble but I haven't given ptutor nearly as much testing. And a few flusterstorms can be supported with a monoR build sufficiently, I think. I plan on testing the black rituals with IGG and a single infernal in sb next.

[nedleeds]

Noxious Revival seems sweet if you stall out.

[Flaat]

Hi there, long time lurker first time posting here

Really like the idea of a past in flames/reforge the soul powered storm deck.
Some cards that havent been mentioned that seem to fit in this deck.
Protection: Overmaster
Draw/kill: Browbeat
Sorry for bringing this one up becuase it always made for flame wars in the burn thread, but Browbeat seems like it fits this deck. Its a semi wincon that makes needed storm count lower. The thing that really starts breaking the card is that its flashbackable in this deck.

Other then that i really think that the only color needed for protection is white, Orim's chant, Silence are the only cards that keep protecting you after a Reforge the soul

[rxavage]

3 Reforge the Soul
1 Past in Flames
4 Burning Wish
2 Gamble
4 Manamorphose
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Faithless Looting
3 Magma Jet
4 Rite of Flame
2 Pyretic Ritual
4 Desperate ritual
4 Seething song
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
3 Lotus Petal
7 Mountains
4 Scaldin Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire



I am currently testing this build atm. I like the magma jets for several reasons and may cut a probe to add another.

Hmmm, overmaster might make be able to take probe's spot...

[HPB_Eggo]

Overmaster seems good, but I would not underestimate the fact that Probe's in the graveyard essentially read 'Pay 2 Life: Draw a card' when you cast PiF. Kind of like Manamoprhose, where it's basically a free card with PiF if you have two mana.

I'm personally still running with only 1 Reforge, 4 Gamble, and 2 PiF, but beyond that, our decks are fairly similar as of the moment. I went back to mono-red after realizing the splashes weren't all that great and the consistency with mono-red was very solid, what with avoiding Stifle and Wasteland, as well as not needing to worry about the color of mana you have.

Currently my list is fairly close to this...

4 Gamble
2 Past in Flames
1 Reforge the Soul
4 Manamorphose
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Faithless Looting
3 Dangerous Wager
4 Rite of Flame
3 Desperate Ritual
2 Pyretic Ritual
3 Seething Song
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Lotus Petal
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Burning Wish
13 Mountain

I might test a few Overmaster over one or the other of the slots. At the very least, one in the SB seems like a great idea, as grabbing it with Burning Wish is pretty easy.

[Namida]

I think you want to max out on Desperate Ritual before you add Pyretic Ritual, instead of the 3/2 split you have. The effect both spells have isn't significant enough for the fact that they have different names to be beneficial in more than perhaps one game in your lifetime, whereas the advantage you gain from being able to Splice a Desperate Ritual onto itself is much more likely to happen and/or matter.

[HPB_Eggo]

I think you want to max out on Desperate Ritual before you add Pyretic Ritual, instead of the 3/2 split you have. The effect both spells have isn't significant enough for the fact that they have different names to be beneficial in more than perhaps one game in your lifetime, whereas the advantage you gain from being able to Splice a Desperate Ritual onto itself is much more likely to happen and/or matter.

Good catch. I'm fairly certain in that iteration I just cut some rituals to make room for more Burning Wish to test having more than two. Will have to remember to keep that in mind in the future.

[rxavage]

I'd rather have my fetch stifled than grapeshot or EtW. I went back to red for the same reason. Bloodmoon, Defense Grid, and Pyroblast in the side should be enough. Although, I am still testing out various colour splashes.


Also, I agree with Namida. Splicing a desperate ritual onto itself is great and a single mana can make all the difference.

[lochlan]

Thank you to everyone who made suggestions for and comments about my list. It was definitely not a reasonable deck, as it was quite slow, but it was a blast to play (Intuition is ridiculously fun in this deck) and I think had some good ideas.

My new list is much faster and, I suspect, at least closer to optimal:

Main Deck:

4 Burning Wish
2 Empty the Warrens
3 Past in Flames
3 Reforge the Soul
3 Pyromancer Ascension

4 Seething Song
4 Rite of Flame

4 Manamorphose
4 Faithless Looting
4 Ponder

4 Flusterstorm

4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Island
2 Mountain


Sideboard:

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Banefire
1 Grapeshot
2 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Reforge the Soul
3 Sudden Shock
2 Echoing Truth
3 Pyroblast/REB


This is somewhere around a T3/T4 deck with the occasional T2. Making it faster than this would require either the bad red rituals (Desperate Ritual is bad, although I'd play it in a Modern build), Chrome Mox (which is bad with the PiF plan), or adding black (I do think that a RB build could work but I'm not there yet)--plus I'd have to cut either business (which makes D7's weaker) or protection.

Making this a bit faster than my last list with some petals works very well. The petals also enable a T2 miracle'd Reforge, which is nice.

Some comments about the card choices:

1) Faithless Looting is nuts, the drawback is almost never bad . It also makes Pyromancer Ascension much better. I have nothing bad to say about this card.

2) Brainstorm kind of sucks. At first I thought it would be awesome because you can put Reforge back on top. As it turns out, that's not a good play. Casting reforge for 3RR is absolutely fine, and although you do often want to run out artifact mana in case you topdeck Reforge, a miracle'd Reforge isn't necessarily the best play. If you have a grip of rituals it's almost always better to ritual into a hard-cast Reforge. (For the storm, extra mana, more optimal lines of play with PiF, etc.)

3) Ponder is required to find the combo pieces quickly. The built-in shuffle effect means that it's more reliable dig than Brainstorm.

4) Flusterstorm is pretty good, and I ultimately decided on it instead of Silence/Orim's Chant. Chants are better in the combo matchup and better protection when comboing--and the kicker on OC and the non-targeting of Silence are both nice--but I like having actual permission (even if it's conditional). But the real reason I chose it over Chant effects is that I don't think this deck should be running white. I tried Rw but the dig wasn't good enough. I tried Ruw but the manabase, although fine in a vacuum (since it is obviously only a very light white splash), makes the deck weaker to Wasteland. (And if I wanted to do that I'd just play TES, which is much faster as well.)

5) Tendrils of Agony is required. It is the kill surprisingly often, since storm 10 is very easy to reach. After chaining D7, PiF, dig, and so forth, at some point you need to win. If I can play a Burning Wish and a Manamorphose I would way rather Tendrils than make some Goblins or try and reach storm 20 and Grapeshot.

6) Pyromancer Ascension is good, getting two counters on it is very easy. It's an insane enabler, it makes your plan much harder to disrupt, and it's another must-answer card for your opponent. Four is too many, three feels very good to me. Sometimes it's awkward to draw it mid-combo but occasionally it works out well. Some games you never see it, but you don't really need it--yet I wouldn't call it "win more" because it can turn fizzles into wins.

7) I haven't properly tested Sudden Shock yet, it's still just an idea (combo off through a hate bear with an active Mother of Runes)--I'm still focused on tweaking the main deck at the moment. It's possible that Pyroclasm or something else is better--but Sudden Shock with an active Pyromancer Ascension could be amazing. Again, still needs more testing.

8) Gamble sucks. I wanted it to be good, but it sucks. Playing more business is just better. I don't want to Gamble when I have enablers in my hand (If you're playing Gamble with a full grip you're just putting your plan at risk), which means it's only good if I have no hand (or a land I don't care about in hand)--in other words, when I've already started comboing off. So my plan is to, what, spend a mana to find a Past in Flames and put it in my graveyard, where I'll have to spend 5 mana to flash it back? So now PiF is a six mana spell? Seems bad. I'd rather just draw a PiF or a Reforge. And nine times out of ten, Gamble is a terrible top deck. Maybe I'm just playing it wrong or something, but I doubt it. When I had it in my hand it too-rarely felt like a strong play.

9) Intuition is super slow but still bonkers. Another version of this deck I'm trying out is -3 Pyromancer Ascension +2 Intuition +1 Empty the Warrens (obviously substituting something else for the second SB EtW).

This is what I came up with after a lot of thought and fair amount of testing. Suggestions, comments, critiques, and flames are all appreciated.

[rxavage]

Nice, keep working on it. I have a R/B list that can go off turn1 frequently, but just as often turn 3. I've been trying to fit flusterstorm into the R/B build. And I always said gamble gives mixed results, it's great alot of times but then fails other times. Tendril's makes the deck so much easier to win with too. Here's the list I've been working with:



2 Reforge the Soul
2 Past in Flames
4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Manamorphose
3 Magma Jet
3 Faithless Looting
4 Thoughtseize
4 Rite of Flame
3 Seething song
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Badlands
3 mountain
2 swamp
4 bloodstained mire

1 Reforge the Soul
1 Past in Flames
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Grapeshot
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Shattering Spree
1 Pyroclasm
3 Duress
3 Pyroblast

[PunkRocker1134]

I'm going to try lochlan's list but with white instead of blue. The changes look like so:
-4 Ponder
-4 Flusterstorm
-1 Empty
+1 Pyromancer's Ascension
+2 Silence
+2 Orim's Chant
+4 experimental draw spell (see below)
(along with the appropriate manabase changes)

While each experimental draw spell is probably worse than ponder, it might make Rw work. Also, I think chant effects are worlds better protection when going off with draw 7's. I personally don't like Empty for my meta, and think Ascension is probably better. Lochlan mentioned a few reasons why white isn't good, but I'm going to test chants/experimental draw spell over flusterstorm/ponder, and see if the better
protection is worth worse pre-combo dig. I'd really like some other dig though. I'm considering testing the following:
Burning Inquiry
Goblin Lore
Temporary Truce
Dangerous Wager

Dangerous Wager and Burning Inquiry take precedence, but temporary truce has me interested. With chants and the such, its drawback might not be that bad at all. I don't like the discard at random part of Inquiry and Lore, but with the way this deck works, it might not be all that bad. Still, 'm gonna try to test all of these draw spells in the coming weeks and see if Rw can work.

[HPB_Eggo]

Dangerous Wager is actually fairly decent overall.

It certainly seems much better than the other three options you listed, at least at first glance.

I'm still testing the mono-red version of this to see if I can tweak it to work a bit better. Overmaster in the side as a Burning Wish target has been pretty good so far, although it still doesn't deal with Stifle or anything of that sort. Pyromancer's Ascension and Blood Moon coming in games two and three against decks like Tempo Thresh is also excellent, and actually makes those games just as easy, if not easier, in rounds two and three. Not to insinuate that's an easy match-up at all, because it isn't, but those certainly help a lot, especially the Blood Moon.

[Moonspell]

Main Deck:

4 Burning Wish
2 Empty the Warrens
3 Past in Flames
3 Reforge the Soul
3 Pyromancer Ascension

4 Seething Song
4 Rite of Flame

4 Manamorphose
4 Faithless Looting
4 Ponder

4 Flusterstorm

4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Island
2 Mountain


5) Tendrils of Agony is required. It is the kill surprisingly often, since storm 10 is very easy to reach. After chaining D7, PiF, dig, and so forth, at some point you need to win. If I can play a Burning Wish and a Manamorphose I would way rather Tendrils than make some Goblins or try and reach storm 20 and Grapeshot.

My observation based on your post is that you run two Empty the Warrens but usually want it to be Tendrils of Agony. Why not cut one of the Empty the Warrens for a Tendrils and possibly cut the the second Empty the Warrens for something else? Perhaps G. Probe?

I have not tested this deck at all, just lurking here following this decks development and thought that cutting the Warrens out seems like a good idea.

[lochlan]

Your suggestions are pretty bad. It's a nice thought to offer suggestions, but if you haven't tested this deck or the cards you are mentioning then you're basically just cluttering up the thread.

Considering that this is a UR deck and Tendrils requires either unlikely artifact mana configurations or Manamorphose, I cannot see how main deck Tendrils could possibly be good. Sounds like a great way to put a dead card into my hand. And why would I cut the numbers of the single win condition that doesn't depend on the graveyard? Seems bad. (Chaining D7's without using the GY almost never happens.) If anything I want more EtW, not less. As for Gitaxian Probe, my game plan doesn't really change depending on the cards in my opponent's hand. The cantrip might be nice but I'm not sure what slot I would use for this. If I cut Ponder for Probe I could cut blue, but then I'm back to bad cantrips and a worse main deck configuration again. Maybe there's a list for Probe but I don't think this is it, at least in its current iteration.

@rxavage: any chance you could change the name of this thread to something like "Reforge the Soul combo"? "Firestorm" is an actual card, but--based on the posts in here--it seems like the goal is to find a shell for Reforge.dec, not push for a particular configuration.

[rxavage]

I don't know how to change the thread title, so a pm with instructions would be kind. I will change the thread title to "Reforge the Soul combo discussion". Despite firestorm already being a card it is what I call the mono red version regardless.

[Flaat]

Not me but stolen from Taco for its epicness, circa 2007:

This may have nothing to do with Flash, but I was so amused by it I had to bring it up. IBA suggests Brightstone Ritual as a bizarre answer to Empty the Warrens, so I started testing it against some ETW tossing decks. Here's one of my best results ever and quite possibly the best turn one in the history of Vial Goblins:

Opponent: Turn one, ridiculous shit, 16 ETW Tokens:

Me: (Opening Hand: Plateau, Wasteland, Brightstone Ritual, Brightstone Ritual, Warchief, Ringleader, Matron)

-Plateau, Ritual for 16, Warchief, Ringleader (10 floating.)
-(Ringleader hits Ringleader, Gempalm, Piledriver.)
-Ringleader (7 Floating.)
-(Ringleader hits Matron, Matron, Sharpshooter, Piledriver. Sweet!)
-Matron for Ringleader, Piledriver, Ringleader (1 Floating).
-(Ringleader hits Lackey, SGC)
-Brightstone Ritual for 22, Piledriver, Matron for Matron, Matron for Driver, Matron for Driver, Piledriver, Piledriver, Sharpshooter, Lackey, Gempalm, Siege-Gang (5 Floating.)
-Sharpshooter off all tokens.
-Mana Burn for 5.
-Swing for 179.

After seeing this post in the ridiculous plays thread i wondered if anyone ever tried this sort of deck with 3x empty the warrens + wishable maindeck and 4x brightstone ritual. using warrens as a kill and combo enabler at the same time seems kinda cool.

[rxavage]

After seeing this post in the ridiculous plays thread i wondered if anyone ever tried this sort of deck with 3x empty the warrens + wishable maindeck and 4x brightstone ritual. using warrens as a kill and combo enabler at the same time seems kinda cool.

I actually picked up a playset I found in the 6/1$ box but I've yet to test them. Usually you've used all or most of your resources to get to the point of casting EtW and the game should be won.

[Illissius]

This deck really wants Ruby Medallion.

The last list I was goldfishing looked like this:

4 Ruby Medallion
4 Burning Wish
3 Gamble
4 Faithless Looting
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Overmaster
3 Grapeshot
3 Past in Flames
4 Manamorphose
4 Seething Song
4 Desperate Ritual
2 Pyretic Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
7 Mountain
2 Chrome Mox
SB: 4 Blood Moon or Magus of the Moon
SB: 3 Arc-Slogger
SB: 3 Moltensteel Dragon
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Shattering Spree

It didn't seem fast enough or consistent enough or well-protected enough to be a real deck (albeit what do I know), but Ruby Medallion was surpassed in its brokenness only by Past in Flames itself.

Also the title of the thread is misleading. I was looking to see if anyone else had tried out this deck because it looks obvious but didn't find anything, and only clicked on it weeks later because I thought it was a discussion about Firestorm which is a cool card. But this is probably known. (Personally I call it RubyMedallion.dec which is less appropriate for versions which don't include it.)

[lochlan]

This deck really wants Ruby Medallion.

That's a really interesting addition and I will have to try it out.

4 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors

I stopped working on this deck awhile ago, but one of the things I tried out a couple months ago before I moved on to new brews was Sol lands. I think that with a mono red deck you kind of need them (your spells are so expensive, after all--which is surely why you went for the Medallion).

It didn't seem fast enough or consistent enough.

I completely agree. The problem is that it doesn't have enough card draw/selection. When Wild Guess was spoiled and subsequently released I tried it out in this deck. It was awesome...except that I had a hard time hitting consistently with the Sol Lands. And I need the Sol Lands to have any hope of being fast enough.

If Wizards releases another card draw spell in red with a single then this will be a real deck. (Maybe not a "top" deck, but a real deck.) Given Faithless Looting and Wild Guess, I would not be surprised if they did this, they seem to be all about giving red card draw lately (as long as it has discard attached to it as well).

Also the title of the thread is misleading.

Yep. It's a bad deck name too Honestly, though, this thread is all over the place. If you keep working on your mono-red brew you should probably just start a new thread.

[Vacrix]

Entomb could be potentially be more Gambles if you want to specialize and just run a singleton PiF to save space. Also, Catalyst Stone seems like it could be better than Ruby Medallion. Catalyst Stone is fantastic versus Dredge as well as against Snapcaster Mages, Cabal Therapies, etc.