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Thread: Buying in to Vintage

  1. #21

    Re: Buying in to Vintage

    Quote Originally Posted by ElricTheWhiteWolf View Post
    John Jones won an event with RG beats last year. Versus good competition too, he beat P. Mas. in the finals to take it down. Here is the Tournament Report.
    Thank you.
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  2. #22
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    Re: Buying in to Vintage

    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    Laying a turn one Волхв Луны or Кровавая луна is usually GG in vintage. Shops can pull out of it, but the same decks that run those two cards usually run Viashino-Ketzer ... and he absolutely stomps shops.
    I love me a good Moon MUD, but man does it have trouble against Oath. Like, needs to get 50% more lucky than normal just to have a chance. For those counting at home, that's 130% lucky.

    Bant Fish is quite a fun list that uses blue power while not requiring Time Vault, Tinker package, Mox Ruby/Jet and still feels really strong. FoW + Goyf + Stony Silence runs a nice dagger on the format right now. Also, Jace to your face.
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  3. #23

    Re: Buying in to Vintage

    Quote Originally Posted by Koby View Post
    Bant Fish is quite a fun list that uses blue power while not requiring Time Vault, Tinker package, Mox Ruby/Jet and still feels really strong. FoW + Goyf + Stony Silence runs a nice dagger on the format right now. Also, Jace to your face.
    That was my original intention. That's not looking very good for GenCon this year. I can probably do Dredge though. Not expecting great results, but it will be fun :)
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragoFireheart View Post
    Interestingly enough, I would argue that BS is the Dark Ritual in this case.
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  4. #24
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    Re: Buying in to Vintage

    Quote Originally Posted by CorpT View Post
    That was my original intention. That's not looking very good for GenCon this year. I can probably do Dredge though. Not expecting great results, but it will be fun :)
    Last year I did gencon with rods chalices and time vault. I got rofl powned but it was still the most fun Ive had playing magic in ages. Going back this year with a lotus, twister, and vault still expecting to get powned but it will be fun none the less.

  5. #25

    Re: Buying in to Vintage

    Quote Originally Posted by Picc View Post
    Last year I did gencon with rods chalices and time vault. I got rofl powned but it was still the most fun Ive had playing magic in ages. Going back this year with a lotus, twister, and vault still expecting to get powned but it will be fun none the less.
    That's awesome to hear. Definitely my hopes. To be fair, it's hard not to have fun at Gen Con :)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ertai's Familiar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DragoFireheart View Post
    Interestingly enough, I would argue that BS is the Dark Ritual in this case.
    Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?

  6. #26

    Re: Buying in to Vintage

    Just buy bazaars. Dredge is degenerate, cheap and 1 of the 3 pillars you need to complete. (Workshop, Dredge, Blue). I wouldn't try to make ANT nor would I play hatebears in Vintage. If you want to play hatebears, it will just feel like you're playing a legacy deck against awesome vintage decks which feels unfair. Vintage is pretty cheap compared to what I'm playing in legacy.

    Also, I wouldn't buy Lotus because most decks play it, I would buy it for the Lotus-Yawgmoth's Will-Lotus play. If you're playing dredge and you have Bazaars, the first pieces of power you will pick up are Ancestral Recall, Sapphire and Lotus, which are great starting points.

  7. #27
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    Re: Buying in to Vintage

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    Just buy bazaars. Dredge is degenerate, cheap and 1 of the 3 pillars you need to complete. (Workshop, Dredge, Blue). I wouldn't try to make ANT nor would I play hatebears in Vintage. If you want to play hatebears, it will just feel like you're playing a legacy deck against awesome vintage decks which feels unfair. Vintage is pretty cheap compared to what I'm playing in legacy.

    Also, I wouldn't buy Lotus because most decks play it, I would buy it for the Lotus-Yawgmoth's Will-Lotus play. If you're playing dredge and you have Bazaars, the first pieces of power you will pick up are Ancestral Recall, Sapphire and Lotus, which are great starting points.
    Actually, Vintage has Five Pillars.

    1) Blue-based
    2) Bazaar-based
    3) Workshop-based
    4) Dark Ritual-based
    5) Null Rod-based (now includes Stony Silence-based)
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  8. #28

    Re: Buying in to Vintage

    Quote Originally Posted by Solaran_X View Post
    Actually, Vintage has Five Pillars.

    1) Blue-based
    2) Bazaar-based
    3) Workshop-based
    4) Dark Ritual-based
    5) Null Rod-based (now includes Stony Silence-based)
    No love for Oath? Oh and isn't Dark Ritual-based dead as of the moment?

  9. #29
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    Re: Buying in to Vintage

    Quote Originally Posted by mrjumbo03 View Post
    No love for Oath? Oh and isn't Dark Ritual-based dead as of the moment?
    Traditionally BBC breaks down into 5-8 different sub-archetypes; Oath of Druids being one of them.

    Ritual based combo is on the rise due to a large shift to creature based strategies thanks to the power creep in recent printings. Tendrils of Agony is still a fantastic way to circumvent decks whose sole initiative is to Time Walk figuratively and literally while developing only their board state.

    Also T1 deck hierarchy is a lot more complicated than most formats. A common misconception is to assume most decks play out the same based on color consideration and restricted choices when in fact decks that look similar play out very differently. Even the pillars are a point of contention and in all honestly it's impossible to actually nail it on the head as the subject matter is mostly a point of individual perception.

    I'd like to point out that Dredge is a very fair deck and not something I consider degenerate. That being said it's an excellent first choice when considering the lack of cost as a limiting factor.
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  10. #30
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    Re: Buying in to Vintage

    Quote Originally Posted by Ertai's Familiar View Post

    I'd like to point out that Dredge is a very fair deck and not something I consider degenerate. That being said it's an excellent first choice when considering the lack of cost as a limiting factor.
    I'd like to point out that it is very unfair and the only deck in the entire format requiring half of everyones sideboard space. Mulliganing to 1 for Bazaar and winning is not unheard of. I dont know of a deck that can do that.
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  11. #31
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    Re: Buying in to Vintage

    Quote Originally Posted by menace13 View Post
    I'd like to point out that it is very unfair and the only deck in the entire format requiring half of everyones sideboard space. Mulliganing to 1 for Bazaar and winning is not unheard of. I dont know of a deck that can do that.
    Your narrow view has been rehashed over and over (see TMD Vintage Issues sub forum) so I'm not going to harp on how wrong you are. As the premier aggro deck Dredge does quite a bit for the format from a health standpoint and I'll leave it at that. This is coming from a traditional BBC player - someone who has to relegate 6-7 cards in his sideboard every tournament and is fine with it.
    Last edited by Ertai's Familiar; 05-10-2012 at 02:26 PM. Reason: I cannot grammar.
    Quote Originally Posted by David Ochoa
    Shuffles, much like commas, are useful for altering tempo to add feeling.

  12. #32
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    Re: Buying in to Vintage

    Quote Originally Posted by Ertai's Familiar View Post
    Your narrow view has been rehashed over and over (see TMD Vintage Issues sub forum) so I'm not going to harp on how wrong you are. As the premier aggro deck Dredge does quite a bit for the format from a health standpoint and I'll leave it at that. This is coming from a traditional BBC player - someone who has to relegate 6-7 cards in his sideboard every tournament and is fine with it.
    Harp on how wrong I am? Either you're stupid or you're stupid. I'm fine with both.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cavius The Great View Post
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  13. #33
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    Re: Buying in to Vintage

    CorpT, if you're actually interested in playing Dredge I'd take some time and check out the SCG articles of Matt Elias and Mark Hornung. A Dutch player by the handle of Mantis on TMD also produces Dredge posts of worthwhile quality. Most of the information is a little dated fortunately much of Dredge is cyclic in nature depending on what hate your opponents are on so it's still relevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by David Ochoa
    Shuffles, much like commas, are useful for altering tempo to add feeling.

  14. #34

    Re: Buying in to Vintage

    Quote Originally Posted by Ertai's Familiar View Post
    CorpT, if you're actually interested in playing Dredge I'd take some time and check out the SCG articles of Matt Elias and Mark Hornung. A Dutch player by the handle of Mantis on TMD also produces Dredge posts of worthwhile quality. Most of the information is a little dated fortunately much of Dredge is cyclic in nature depending on what hate your opponents are on so it's still relevant.
    Thanks. I've been digging through some of the older articles trying to figure it out. Those are great places to start. Thanks!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ertai's Familiar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DragoFireheart View Post
    Interestingly enough, I would argue that BS is the Dark Ritual in this case.
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  15. #35
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    Re: Buying in to Vintage

    Quote Originally Posted by Ertai's Familiar View Post
    Dredge does quite a bit for the format from a health standpoint and I'll leave it at that. This is coming from a traditional BBC player - someone who has to relegate 6-7 cards in his sideboard every tournament and is fine with it.
    I'm not very experienced with Vintage but leaving 6-7 SB slots for a single deck every tournament just can't be healthy in any format. 6-7 for god's sake!?

  16. #36
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    Re: Buying in to Vintage

    Quote Originally Posted by bilb_o View Post
    I'm not very experienced with Vintage but leaving 6-7 SB slots for a single deck every tournament just can't be healthy in any format. 6-7 for god's sake!?
    It's not really for a "single deck." There are a lot of decks that are impeded by graveyard-based hate, so they aren't dead cards in your board if you aren't facing Dredge. These cards are just especially useful against Dredge because the graveyard is Dredge's "hand."
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  17. #37
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    Re: Buying in to Vintage

    This thread makes me with Grand Prix Anaheim could come sooner so I could play in the Vintage event!
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  18. #38
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    Re: Buying in to Vintage

    I'll be jamming some Vintage at GP: Columbus in July.
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  19. #39
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    Re: Buying in to Vintage

    Quote Originally Posted by bilb_o View Post
    I'm not very experienced with Vintage but leaving 6-7 SB slots for a single deck every tournament just can't be healthy in any format. 6-7 for god's sake!?
    This and this are juicy reads. Essentially, the point Menace opted to bring up was similarly brought up by Brian Demars right after Dredge won the Vintage Championship in 2011; it spawned some interesting discussion.

    Currently my "anti Dredge" package includes the following:

    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Nihil Spellbomb
    4 Yixlid Jailer
    1 Ravenous Trap

    Really the only cards sided solely for Dredge are the Jailers. Four cards is not an unreasonable number for a single match up.

    The other three are played because each provides a myriad of options versus a large number and variety of meta contenders.

    On the surface the number of cards effectively used against Dredge looks unhealthy but there is a lot more that factors in. If you feel like being educated I suggest you browse those threads and read some articles from authors I previously mentioned.

    The "menace" of Dredge is just another Vintage misconception fueled by ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by David Ochoa
    Shuffles, much like commas, are useful for altering tempo to add feeling.

  20. #40
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    Re: Buying in to Vintage

    I'll read those, always interested in learning more.

    I'd say the majority of that ignorance comes from the lack of mediums to play, learn, discuss, read about Vintage as opposed to the more popular formats like Legacy. When I browse to TMD most threads are dead for months. Unless you have a close Vintage play group you don't get much exposure to in-depth strategy.

    A Vintage subforum here would be very nice to have imo, because we have a very active members group, quite a number of Vintage players and we already have Modern, EDH subforums so... :)

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